Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

And preparing means planning how to counter any possible after effects some of which could be: embargos, civil unrest - armed groups (albanians), international pressure, economic dependency.

If you look closely enough you should see progress in all of these departments by the government.

embargoes - won't happen. Plain and simple
civil unrest - joining EU = USA supporting ethnic Albanians EVEN MORE than already. Civil unrest is being created by the organisations we apparently want to join. Nothing settling down on this front.
international pressure - will change how? For what?
economic dependency - will not change one bit.

[fyrOM]

RTG are you saying I am pretty confident (notwithstanding your kangaroo fetish) you are not an Australian Macedonian as what you think is fact or not an Australian Macedonian in spirit.

If you think it is fact which nationality do you think I am. I am curious about how im perceived.
Just for training purposes back at spy school.hahaha

Or if in spirit I think I have tried to show logic over heart but no one to date has offered an answer to the question if they were the government of Macedonia when since leaving Yugoslavia would they have abandoned the accord or would they have never signed at all and how they would have dealt with the embargo. Just telling the world to stick it up their jumper doesn’t solve the problem. With any answer provide an explanation of what fallout they think would have occurred and how they would have dealt with it.

So if you are trying to say the maco spirit is to be stubborn and bloody-minded to the bitter end then I would suggest you are right but not completely. I could make a joke and say you need to find a better class of friends who not only show the typical maco traits but also the maco logic that has seen us survive the millennias of what to most people would be unthinkable difficulties eg when have we been free and when have we had friends - but I think you already know some from the past and even new ones with a fetish or three.

PS in case you missed it in my previous posts in this thread and others I am not for any change of name. if Macedonia change the name to anything ie north new up Vardar ect you instantly change the identity to you are a kind of Macedonian which is the only concession the Greeks have made but which really is a Claytons concession crikey I cant get away from aussie lingo as it permanently seals that they are the real Macedonians. So in effect there is no choice but not to change the name.

[Bratot]

embargoes - won't happen. Plain and simple
civil unrest - joining EU = USA supporting ethnic Albanians EVEN MORE than already. Civil unrest is being created by the organisations we apparently want to join. Nothing settling down on this front.
international pressure - will change how? For what?
economic dependency - will not change one bit.

RTG.. being so confident deserve an elaboration of what you wrote. Let's not pul a debate where no matter what we say we end the sentences with "a FACT".

embargoes - won't happen. Plain and simple

cit: An embargo is the partial or complete prohibition of the movement of merchant ships into or out of a country's ports, in order to isolate it. Embargoes are considered strong diplomatic measures imposed in an effort, by the embargo-imposing-country, to elicit a given national-interest result from the country on which it is imposed.

If they decide to inforce an embargo I don't see a obstacle for them.

Civil unrest is being created by the organisations we apparently want to join.

Agreed, that's something we can expect for 100%.

international pressure - will change how? For what?

for all above already mentioned..

economic dependency - will not change one bit

How can you claim this so confindentally?

We are totally without strategy for such economic embargo, we are dependant on Solun port, we don't have rail or road infrastructure to Bulgaria or Albania.

The only oil rafinery is in Greek hands, our electricity in German hands, our Telecom also.

If they want to use the economical instruments against us they couldn't be in better possition.

[Risto the Great]

RTG.. being so confident deserve an elaboration of what you wrote. Let's not pul a debate where no matter what we say we end the sentences with "a FACT".



cit: An embargo is the partial or complete prohibition of the movement of merchant ships into or out of a country's ports, in order to isolate it. Embargoes are considered strong diplomatic measures imposed in an effort, by the embargo-imposing-country, to elicit a given national-interest result from the country on which it is imposed.

If they decide to inforce an embargo I don't see a obstacle for them.

I see an obstacle. Greece is broke. It cannot dictate terms to Europe in relation to stopping valuable sales to its economy because of the name of the country it sells to.

The EU will not tolerate an embargo like this. Especially now.

It would not be impossible to think that Macedonia could constitutionally seize all Greek businesses in Macedonia if an embargo transpires. Chavez did it in Venezuela if I recall correctly. But Macedonians would need to be more like Delchev and less like Tito's slaves to do this.

Agreed, that's something we can expect for 100%.

So why are we conforming to the terms of our agreed enemy then?

for all above already mentioned..

130 countries are on our side. Do you mean pressure from Greece will change? We have had the same bullshit from our opposing countries for years now. Wouldn't it be something different for Macedonia to assert itself instead of being the whimpering whipping post that it is now?

How can you claim this so confindentally?

We are totally without strategy for such economic embargo, we are dependant on Solun port, we don't have rail or road infrastructure to Bulgaria or Albania.

The only oil rafinery is in Greek hands, our electricity in German hands, our Telecom also.

If they want to use the economical instruments against us they couldn't be in better possition.

They cannot afford to use blunt economic instruments. It would be bad marketing for them. You give the impression it will be Macedonia against the entire world for asserting its identity. It is embarrassing to be Macedonian.

Here is an idea, imagine a nation building exercise where everyone gets together and lays a fucking railroad track by hand to a country that is not our sworn enemy. (= Anybody except Greece)

There was a time when all the Chinese handed in their forks, spoons and knives to make (shit) steel to rebuild the nation. Can you see that whilst it was a dumb idea, it helped forge something quite different. Surely it is time for a change. This subservience is killing me.

Instead, the dumb Macedonians recommend supporting Greece in its endeavours in the world cup ... and give them maximum votes in Eurovision. What a bunch of slav(e)s.

[makedonche]

Ozimak

......."The truth shall set you free"
Get ready to be set free..........

[Risto the Great]

No worries OziMak, I don't hide my IP address by the way ... just for something different.
Anyway, glad to hear you are against a name change. Cool, we know you are a closet Macedonian. You must be like Gruevski ... perhaps you won't change the name unless it is done through a referendum.

I am positive Macedonians in Macedonia would be in a far better position right now if they weren't so used to their charming Yugo lifestyle at the time of the embargo. The leaders at the time did not have the integrity to demand what was fair on behalf of all Macedonians. Plain and simple.

What do you think Macedonia would be like (now) if they did not cave in at the embargo time? Do you think they might have learned to become more self sufficient by now? Or do you think they would still be the Greek lapdogs that your mentality is espousing?

[Vangelovski]

Its amazing how the Palestinians in Gaza can withhold a four year embargo, completley sealed off on all borders and at sea, going without basic food supplies, medicine and electricity in order to resist their oppressors, yet an entire generation of Macedonians were devastated by the (one-sided) Greek embargo while having complete access to the worlds markets through its other neighbours.

[Bratot]

I see an obstacle. Greece is broke. It cannot dictate terms to Europe in relation to stopping valuable sales to its economy because of the name of the country it sells to.

The EU will not tolerate an embargo like this. Especially now.

C'mon Risto. Be a serious guy, if only Greece itself was the problem we could deal it, but it's obvious who stands behind it's acts toward Macedonia.

What sanctions EU inforced on Greece for everything they have done?

Even with this financial crisis in Greece, the same bloody EU decided to get them out, instead of sanctions for the years of stealing of their money.

And now you are so confident that EU will sanction them for what they do to Macedonia?

That's very optimistical thinking.

It would not be impossible to think that Macedonia could constitutionally seize all Greek businesses in Macedonia if an embargo transpires. Chavez did it in Venezuela if I recall correctly. But Macedonians would need to be more like Delchev and less like Tito's slaves to do this.

Of course, we are not weaponless, but what would it change in practical use for us?

We could put embargo on Greece also if that's how you present the anti-slave characteur.

It's fine by me, let's do it. If you are sure to gain something.

So why are we conforming to the terms of our agreed enemy then?

I don't see conforming with their terms I just see a different way of dealing them.

I don't think we should stop debating over this matter and paint the different opinions as of "slaves". It's causing only damage.

It's not enough only to stay firmly and confrote everything with fists, you could use some more suptile strategy without risking loosing the advantage of current possition.

130 countries are on our side. Do you mean pressure from Greece will change? We have had the same bullshit from our opposing countries for years now. Wouldn't it be something different for Macedonia to assert itself instead of being the whimpering whipping post that it is now?

Either way you will have to deal the pressure, one way is Miloshevich way, the another is Jewish way.

Stand up when you are prepared, not by jumping like horny money as we say down, we could prepare the ground first, work out few strategies, gain valuable concrete support, provide economic solution in case of the embargo scenario, getting rid of greek investitions in the crucial sector of resources, very active diplomatic activity and money for lobbying.

Than working inside Greece also, trying to find our way among them.

They cannot afford to use blunt economic instruments. It would be bad marketing for them. You give the impression it will be Macedonia against the entire world for asserting its identity. It is embarrassing to be Macedonian.

The entire world doesn't count, only few sides Risto, that's how the things are.

As I said already, we cannot enter a battle if we are not ready. The purpose of it's self just in gettin the battle doesn't ensure a success, it's whole logistic and preparation in order to get there.

Maybe they will not use the economic instruments directly, but their mentors will do it for them as they still do it, we are seeng that.

Instead, the dumb Macedonians recommend supporting Greece in its endeavours in the world cup ... and give them maximum votes in Eurovision. What a bunch of slav(e)s.

I agree, it's our naive and serville mentality the main cause for our situation, no question of that.

[fyrOM]

The 10 guy thing I was referring to our situation after we left Yugoslavia. Anything of value and weapons was taken by the Yugoslavs. We had the bad Yugoslav economy and no one with a vested interest in Macedonia. To top it off the embargo crippled trade. The country was not in the best position but would have gone down hill fast. The eu gang just stood waiting for the Greek screws to crush us. Economic disintegration would have lead to social unrest and brought the 2001 conflict forward to an earlier date when we would have been less prepared. A real split could have happened with Greece squeezing us from the outside and the Albanian minority riddling us from the inside all the while the eu gang waiting in the wings threatening to bomb us if we looked like doing ethnic cleansing the then buzz word.

The only real voice of support was Turkey who openly said their planes will be in the air the moment a foreign soldiers foot crossed the border. that’s what I meant its hard to bite your tong in the face of obvious injustice but you need to pick your battles.

How successful would Macedonia been in arguing at the un the Greek embargo is unjust and un pressure to force Greece to stop. It was so stupid even blind Freddy could see the Greek argument that they were concerned for their security as Macedonia’s name implied territorial aspiration against Greece was a lie. It was like saying 10 big guys were afraid of 1 tiny kid. Yet no one came out to help. Faced with no where to go the Macedonian government gave in to the demands the constitution is changed that Macedonia makes no territorial claims and the accord. Did the government blink to soon and could have avoided the accord. Possibly. And this is the sore point for many Macedonians. The risk of possibly splitting the country was real only as much as a blind stubbornness not to negotiate anything for long enough to cause an internal revolt. Before this went on too long to allow an internal conflict to start and counting on Turkeys threat to jump in did the government push hard enough at the un or did they loose their cool and agree to the accord which is a treacherous risky winedy long road to get back to the same point and tell them to stick their accord up their jumper. The government took the second option and now we are close to reaching the end of the road. While we were on the road we got teased and picked on to change our name but it is at the end of the road that it will get serious and this is when we need to reverse the question to the eu. We are a great country in many ways let us in the eu under our own name or we walk. Then get ready to counter the fall out.

The outside long shot is the dark option. Germany has been supporting Greece but has also dropped words about changing the eu laws to prevent countries using a veto against a candidates application for eu membership on bilateral reasons only. It is possible Germany sees the value in Macedonia while the long standing golden reason for supporting Greece is diminished significantly. it’s a possibility they may use the same legal reasons you guys have been saying all along that the name RoM is different to the administrative regions of east central and west Macedonia and no one could confuse the two. I know it sounds like a back flip but how many times have you heard of a court case where the judge chooses to recognise and uphold a point or dismiss it which one part is pining their case on. Unfair I know. it’s a possibility because now there is value in Macedonia as apposed to hardly any when we left Yugoslavia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yet no one came out to help. Faced with no where to go the Macedonian government gave in to the demands the constitution is changed that Macedonia makes no territorial claims and the accord.

There was no support at all that Macedonia could build on from other countries in the world? Nobody at all? What would have happened if they stood their ground?

Did the government blink to soon and could have avoided the accord. Possibly.

Definetly.

And this is the sore point for many Macedonians.

Should be for all Macedonians.

[fyrOM]

Did the government blink to soon and could have avoided the accord. Possibly.
Definetly.
Quote:
And this is the sore point for many Macedonians.
Should be for all Macedonians.

SoM I don’t know how hard they tried. There was a brief slim opportunity. To try and fail is one thing but to fail from not trying is totally something else. Which was it. don’t know without being privy to the meetings.

[fyrOM]

Scaremongering from the eu or something real. I guess we will see in a few weeks.

Communication between Gruevski and Papandreou may result in a settlement of the name

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/makedonija/610357/index.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgQXQPCS6N_jMKpCq18zrX_yHDsJQ

Prizren, June 26, 2010 (AP) - Unable to comment on someone else's statement. Веројатно тој има информации штом дал таква изјава. Perhaps he had information when making such a statement. Меѓутоа, комуникацијата што постои во последно време и дијалогот меѓу премиерот Груевски и премиерот Папандреу укажува дека се стекнува доверба што може да резултира со решение. However, there is a communication lately and dialogue between Prime Minister and Prime Minister Papandreou indicates that acquires confidence that can result in a settlement. Тоа решение мора да биде во рамки на Обединетите Нации, односно процесот што го води медијаторот Нимиц. That solution must be within the United Nations or the process leading mediator Nimetz.

Ова е одговорот на претседателот на Република Македонија Ѓорге Иванов, кој учествува на регионалната лидерска средба во Призрен, на новинарско прашање во врска со изјавата на министерот за надворешни работи на Белгија Стивен Ванекере дека спорот за името меѓу Македонија и Грција ќе се реши за неколку седмици, јави известувачот на МИА. This is the answer to the President of the Republic of Macedonia George Ivanov, participating in a regional leadership meeting in Prizren, when asked about the statement by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Belgium Steven Vanekere that the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece will be solved in a few weeks , MIA reports.

Претстојното белгиско претседателство со ЕУ располага со информации дека спорот за името меѓу Македонија и Грција ќе се реши за неколку седмици. Belgian upcoming EU presidency has information that the name dispute between Greece and Macedonia will be settled for several weeks. Тоа, пренесе „Дојче веле“, го кажал вчера шефот на белгиската дипломатија Стивен Ванекере, одговарајќи на новинарско прашање дали под белгиско претседателство со ЕУ ќе биде усвоена препораката за старт на пристапните преговори со Македонија. It delivered Deutsche Welle, "he said yesterday the head of the Belgian diplomacy Steven Vanekere, responding to a question whether under the Belgian presidency of the EU will adopt the recommendation to start accession negotiations with Macedonia.

- Вчера повторно имав контакти со важни луѓе од областа на надворешните работи, на сите им е јасно дека е важна дискретноста во преговорите кои се одвиваат меѓу Грција и претставниците на ПЈРМ за да можат да донесат решение. - Yesterday again I had contacts with important people in the area of foreign affairs, all are clearly important diskretnosta in the negotiations taking place between representatives of Greece and FYROM in order to make a decision. Но, треба да бидеме дискретни, ова е нешто што би требало да се реши во следниве седмици, нема да давам изјави кои би можеле да му наштетат на процесот, но мислам дека ќе се изнајде решение, рече Ванакере. But we need to be discrete, this is something that should be resolved in the following weeks, would not give said that could harm the process, but I think you will find a solution, said Vanakere.

[fyrOM]

http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/makedonija/610357/index.html

[fyrOM]

don’t know what happened but Google translate gone nuts.
This is the original link.

[Makedonetz]

Athens and Skopje to negotiate, Nimetz will bring

Belgian upcoming EU presidency has information that the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece will be solved within a few weeks


Mediator Matthew Nimetz's name is expected to soon adopt a proposal in Skopje and Athens, which will make a breakthrough to resolve the dispute to a NATO summit in November.

Diplomatic sources familiar with the negotiating process said that Nimetz may come soon in both countries, or decide to call on the negotiators in New York, after recently been seriously shift the deadlock in talks on the name.

The upcoming Belgian Presidency of the EU that has information on the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece will be solved in a few weeks. That, he delivered yesterday Deutsche Welle, said the head of Belgian diplomacy, Steven Vanekere, responding to a question whether under the Belgian presidency of the EU will adopt the recommendation to start accession negotiations with Macedonia. That, he delivered yesterday Deutsche Welle, said the head of Belgian diplomacy, Steven Vanekere, responding to a question whether under the Belgian presidency of the EU will adopt the recommendation to start accession negotiations with Macedonia.

Yesterday again I had contacts with important people in the area of foreign affairs, all are clearly important in diskretnosta negotiations take place between representatives of Greece and FYROM in order to make a decision. But we should be discreet, this is something that should be resolved in the following weeks, I will not give statements that could harm the process, but I think there is a solution - Vanakere said. But we should be discreet, this is something that should be solved in the following weeks, I will not give statements that could harm the process, but I think there is a solution - Vanakere said.

As already announced, it seems has found a platform on which to negotiate intensively, and the scene is restored variant of the name with a remark in parentheses. The battle, according to our information is held about which word will be in parentheses. The battle, according to our information, run overa word will be in parentheses. The terms "new" and "Glory" turned out in the first moment. The terms "new" and "glory" dropped in the first moment. Our sources briefing there is a qualitative step in the process and enhance the bargaining position of Macedonia, which according to them, the passive player, who generally refused Greek proposals now actively
according to them, the passive player who generally refused Greek proposals are now actively working towards a solution that would be passed by both sides. Greece expressed the greatest interest in the scope of use as the second part of the package that is discussed. Greece expressed the greatest interest in the scope of use as the second part of the package that is discussed. Third part of the package is the referendum, the U.S. government insist can not be a negative campaign against the referendum. Third
part of the package is the referendum, the US government insist can not be a negative campaign against the referendum.

Greek daily "Kathimerini", meanwhile, yesterday came up with analysis that Gruevski would not step down from the double formula and would accept the geographical reference as the "age" only if we recognize the language and nation.

"Slave-Macedonian leaders will make concessions when talking about the solution does not think anything else but a variant of the double formula, which means one name for Greece and the constitutional name worldwide and normally for internal use, something that is not Athens agrees. Or at a pinch, according to the stories of those who know how thinking can not accept modification of the constitutional name, with a determinant at the end like 'Vardar Macedonia', but this would happen only if they recognize the language and the nation . Or at a pinch, according to the stories of those who know how thinking can not accept modification of the constitutional name, with a determinant at the end like 'Vardar Macedonia', but this would happen only
if they recognize the language and nation. But you'll find a Greek government that would recognize the existence of the Macedonian people who had been expelled from Greece and is now concentrated within FYROM, sending irredentism in moments when in our opinion is that Skopje forge our history, "evaluated" Kathimerini ". But you'll find a Greek government that would recognize the existence of the Macedonian people who had been expelled from Greece and is now concentrated on the borders of FYROM, sending irredentism in moments when in our opinion is that Skopje forge our history, "evaluated" Kathimerini ". Author: Ivan Kostovska Author: Ivan Kostovska

http://translate.google.com/translat...m.mk%2F&anno=2


Nimitz as a negotator or mediator needs to firstly call us by our constitutional name and not FYROM. WOnder how much validity these reports are showing between greece and Macedonia.