Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    I fully agree with the conclussion.No one can dictate to another who they are.The self identification is a human right which no one can take away.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      Thanks Risto and George.


      @ Risto... it's a pretty long read, so you're not being lazy

      Comment

      • George S.
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 10116

        It's my pleausure vicsinad & welcome to our forum.
        Speaking for my self i speed read most of it.
        Last edited by George S.; 05-19-2011, 11:58 AM. Reason: ed
        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
        GOTSE DELCEV

        Comment

        • julie
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 3869

          vicsinad welcome to the forum
          Thank you for the paper, love your work!
          Have you considered publishing this, Politecon publications in NSW may be a possible avenue?
          Thanks again, awesome
          "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

          Comment

          • Makedonska_Kafana
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2010
            • 2642

            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            Here's a paper I wrote... it's basically a summary of the history leading up to the name dispute, the negotiations, and why the negotiations have failed. I hope it's useful for some people. Thanks for reading it.

            http://www.makedonika.org/whatsnew/Final+Mak+Paper.pdf
            Welcome Vic, keep up the good work and never allow other's to buy your beliefs or dreams in life.

            Alex
            http://www.makedonskakafana.com

            Macedonia for the Macedonians

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13675

              Todor Petrov showed himself to be just another tool of the government, and in all his years involved with politics, he hasn't really achieved much in terms of the Macedonian Cause, aside from the usual rhetoric. Forget about him.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Makedonska_Kafana
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2010
                • 2642

                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                Todor Petrov showed himself to be just another tool of the government, and in all his years involved with politics, he hasn't really achieved much in terms of the Macedonian Cause, aside from the usual rhetoric. Forget about him.
                I don't take any Macedonian organization without a website seriously and I have stopped asking them to get with the program. Sadly, one is over 50 years old in Canada with nothing to show on-line. That, has nothing to do with a lack of money ..
                Last edited by Makedonska_Kafana; 05-19-2011, 07:05 PM.
                http://www.makedonskakafana.com

                Macedonia for the Macedonians

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                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13675

                  What do you think the problem is with them (I am assuming you're referring to UM in Canada)? Have they lost the passion? Are they compromised? Or just happy to be irrelevant?
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Makedonska_Kafana
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2010
                    • 2642

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    What do you think the problem is with them (I am assuming you're referring to UM in Canada)? Have they lost the passion? Are they compromised? Or just happy to be irrelevant?
                    The majority of the youth have next to zero interest and attend ONLY the Ilinden picnic .. laziness, booze and hip hop muzika. UMD, are not the only ones destined to fail in the long run .. effect all our church's and organizations. This is not only with Macedonians but with everyone except the Jews.

                    It, was 30 years ago when I said if you don't build community centre's you're done and the rest is now history. I, was born in Toronto and if we had even 40% as passionate as me we may have made it - I live and breath this stuff daily.

                    Guess what? You know that blind UMD defender? He, can't even come close to being as Macedonian as I am .. FACT!

                    - I have personally met father Tsarknias a few times .. FUCK OFF YOU IDIOT, TALKING TO THE WRONG PERSON JUNIOR just ask your dad who this guy is because I play for keeps! Stick, to what you know best and leave Macedonian matters to those that care 24/7.

                    Book of Issah
                    Last edited by Makedonska_Kafana; 05-19-2011, 10:17 PM.
                    http://www.makedonskakafana.com

                    Macedonia for the Macedonians

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      I have not read it yet, but I like the conclusion. All indications are that Gruevski is trying to break the continuity we have with the past.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                        Here's a paper I wrote... it's basically a summary of the history leading up to the name dispute, the negotiations, and why the negotiations have failed. I hope it's useful for some people. Thanks for reading it.

                        http://www.makedonika.org/whatsnew/Final+Mak+Paper.pdf
                        Hi Vic, generally well written, good job. We need more level-headed papers that can deliver a strong message. I do, however, wish to comment on some parts in which I believe you haven't adequately researched enough, or failed to mention at all.

                        For example, nowhere in your paper does it mention anything about the Macedonia Theme which was established around 800AD and was home to Slavic-speaking peoples who identified as Macedonians. You will find that a number of East Roman (Byzantine) writers mentioning the Macedonians are actually making reference to the people of the Macedonia Theme and not Macedonia proper.

                        You appear to have neglected the early period of Christianity in which St Paul arrived in Macedonia to preach the word of Christ. The Macedonian population may have been devastated by raids, invasions, uprisings, etc between the 4th-6th centuries, but Christianity wasn't completely wiped out from the region. When the religion began to re-assert itself again some time later, there was no 'great conversion' required, like the case with the Serbs, for example.

                        Your suggestion that the "Slavs probably originated in a geographic region shared by Poland, Ukraine", based on Andrew Rossos, needs to be further explained. You don't seem to have spent much time clarifying who exactly are 'the' Slavs, and their relationship to the Paleo-Balkan peoples. Furthermore, in my opinion, it was the Macedonian people as Roman citizens who were more numerous and thus absorbed the new political and military elite, while adopting the language of that elite and making it their own. Although I would like to point out that this transition appears to have been greatly facilitated by pre-existing linguistic commonalities between the new elite and the local populace.

                        With regard to Alexander I's "deliberate policy to Hellenize the Macedonian court and elite", while I would agree that a level of 'Hellenisation' certainly did take place as a result of deliberate policy, I don't think his intention was to 'Hellenise' the Macedonian court per se, but rather adopt certain cultural traits and practices which could be of use to the Macedonian monarchy and state. I know that is not a major point, but I think it is important, because using terms like 'Hellenise' in a blanket manner can indicate to some that Alexander's intention was to turn the Macedonian monarchy into a Hellenic one, and I don't believe that to be the case. Unfortunately, as minor as it sounds, when referring to this period it pays to be as specific as possible.

                        I apologise if I sound too critical - because, as I said before, your paper is generally quite good, but I would expect the same critical review from others who share this common interest in our Macedonian history.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • vicsinad
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 2337

                          Thanks!

                          @Soldier -- Thanks for being critical, it will help me in the future. I thought that the section about foreign interference was lacking (not enough talk about the Diaspora organizations and other governments' interests). I was actually trying to find a way to reduce the history section prior to the 19th century revolutionary times, but I see how I could have talked about a couple of your points to strengthen some arguments. So thanks!

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13675

                            No problem Vic, just some things to keep in mind. I understand that your article is probably more political than historical in nature, although I think one prevailing issue has been the fact that many writers limit Macedonian history from the 19th century onwards, which may give the wrong impression to readers.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • lavce pelagonski
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 1993

                              This has come to me from the man himself Mr Stojanco, this is Dostoinstvos stance on the name and everything that is attached to it. As he has little time to spare it is hard for him to interact on this foum at the present time.

                              Official stance of Dostoinstvo :
                              Vo kratki crti: Dostoinstvo e protiv promena na imeto na Makedonija, a za identitet, jazik i istorija ne ni sakam da me prashuvaat.
                              Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле Страшниот Чакаларов гркоубиец и крвожеден комитаџија.

                              Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море. Васил Чакаларов

                              Comment

                              • lavce pelagonski
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2009
                                • 1993

                                Obama 'Bored' by Macedonia-Greece Name Dispute

                                US President Barack Obama has told his Macedonian counterpart that he is "bored" with the notorious dispute the Balkan country has about its name with Greece.

                                "Every time I meet the Macedonian President we talk about the name dispute. This bores me. I promise you, Mr. President to talk again to Papandreou about this issue. I believe that he wants and is ready to find a solution to this problem," Obama told Macedonia's President Gjorge Ivanov, as cited by MIA and BGNES, in Warsaw where the two met during a dinner that the US President had with 20 heads of state from Central and Eastern Europe.

                                Obama has pledged support for Macedonia's aspirations to join NATO and the EU, which have largely been blocked by an informal Greek veto over the name dispute. The US President has promised the Macedonian head of state specific results from the ongoing talks.

                                The dispute about Macedonia's name has been going on since the country formally known as FYROM broke free from the former Yugoslavia in the early 1990s. It is based on Greek concerns of potential territorial claims because of the fact that most of Northern Greece is administratively known as Macedonia, the name of the historic and geographic region in this part of the Balkans.

                                US President Barack Obama has told his Macedonian counterpart that he is "bored" with the notorious dispute the Balkan country has about its name with Greece. "Every time I meet the Macedonian President we talk about the name dispute.
                                Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле Страшниот Чакаларов гркоубиец и крвожеден комитаџија.

                                Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море. Васил Чакаларов

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