Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Makedonetz]

It is like Greece is setting us for a trap. They "claim" Northern Macedonia is territorial theirs thus if we accept the name change to Northern Macedonia they will have the assimilation they need to put the final nail in our coffin and say we are historically Greece as they called it before this and now we accept their choice.

We are stable if we dont join the EU, we would have the upper hand as Greece would go ape shit seeing they still havent destroyed us and all their resources to try and change us failed in the end they vanish from the face of the earth (we only wish)

[makedonche]

But Makedonche, the "UN process" created this mess.
Our fundamental right to self determination is being spat on by them every day.

RTG
Yes & No, have we tried to force them to adhere to their laws, has anyone challenged them using their own process? I remember Pelister suggested this a long time ago and am just wondering whether any ROM official challenge has commenced or any Diaspora challenge has been started?

[Risto the Great]

OziMak, no big deal re the 2 threads.
This one relates to the Interim Accord. You sound all for it.
I am pretty confident (notwithstanding your kangaroo fetish) you are not an Australian Macedonian because most of us have developed a consciousness that rejects anyone or anything that involves compromise. Many Macedonians from elsewhere feel the same.

I guess an appropriate question would be how much capitulation are you willing to accept. Would having Macedonia in the new name for Macedonia be ok with you?

[Vangelovski]

RTG
Yes & No, have we tried to force them to adhere to their laws, has anyone challenged them using their own process? I remember Pelister suggested this a long time ago and am just wondering whether any ROM official challenge has commenced or any Diaspora challenge has been started?

Makedonche,

Firstly, what military strikes?

Secondly, noone is going to enforce our sovereign rights except for us. We are alone in this world. There are no friends coming to our aid. There never was.

[makedonche]

Makedonche,

Firstly, what military strikes?

Secondly, noone is going to enforce our sovereign rights except for us. We are alone in this world. There are no friends coming to our aid. There never was.

Vangelovski
Good point, rather than "military strikes", threat of military action/inability of ROM to effectively defend itself!
Second point - no friends to come to our aid, probably true! The sooner we accept this and move forward without anyone's assistance the better.
The previous post was based on hypotheticals to Bratot's question.

[Vangelovski]

Makedonche,

In my view, military threats - both external and internal - are a normal part in the life of a state. Its nothing out of the ordinary and should not be viewed as an insurmountable challenge. Homeland defence is a responsibility that must be met by all free people - if they want to remain free.

[fyrOM]

No Julie im not joking I really don’t think I would look good it tights. I think they only look good on girls.

To the political question I am not saying a necessary evil in the sense of the recession we had to have of Paul Keating but in the sense of once it was there trying to remove it forces the issue to a result and by not pushing it Macedonia has had time to strengthen her position so that when the hard word is finally put on Macedonia we are not faced with the same decision 15 years ago.

I think many make to little of the embargo and look at was it wrong to put us in that position and was it wrong to sign the accord and we should have stuck to our guns because we are right. Have you heard of pred sila nema pravda. The internal industries we had and farming is all that was working. And even they were put at a holt with the embargo. Internal economic activity would not have been enough to sustain the country. Should the government tried to argue the embargo was totally unreasonable as it was over a name and no real threat to Greece. I don’t know if they did back then but even so a law is only as good as someone enforcing it and eus support for Greece is wrong. Could Macedonia have succeed in overturning the embargo. Maybe you know better about those times but Macedonia could not endure indefinitely a protracted embargo without harming the population.

1. the first wrong is the embargo

2. the eu and un for letting it happen when no threat to Greece existed and for not forcing Greece to abandon the embargo.

3. Did our government argue this point adequately and could they have succeeded in the face of lack of support or did they blink to early.

4. In light of the war in Yugoslavia how viable both in terms of will and cost were the alternate routs while the embargo was on.

5. if they were not viable the local industry and farming were not enough to sustain the country let alone build the country. It is not just would the Macedonians endure hardship for the sake of not relenting on the name but would the minorities endure the hardships or would it have brought forward the events of 2001.

6. By the time Yugoslavia was over the 2001 conflict occurred. Was this really the time to brake the accord.

7. Your statements that Macedonia should now abandon the accord suggests the accord can be abandoned at any time. A conflict with the eu and Greece will occur the moment the accord is broken. Following through with the name change is not an option then do we want the conflict brought forward or do we keep working at strengthening the country and then abandon the accord.

Then at which point in time was it best to abandon the accord and why.

[Vangelovski]

OziMak,

According to the apocalyptic senario you provide (albiet baseless scaremongering propaganda) Macedonia will NEVER be able to "abandon" the Interim Accord, which you've made quite clear is your preferred option.

Most people don't seem to realise that with freedom comes responsibility. And then there are those like OziMak who do and are afraid of it. They would rather live in servitude than take responsibility for themselves.

[fyrOM]

There will be no strike directly from anyone but subvertly creating the means for a second conflict is a possibility and then the threat of bombing.

Angelskin is right in saying we do not have many friends. I don’t know I would say no friends but we should think as if we don’t have any. We need to stand up for our rights. Others may support us but we need to be standing. No one is going to fix everything for us while we stand back.

But I would remind you if you don’t have friends then have business associates with vested interests. The gas pipeline is a big bonus as well as other foreign investors. They will be first to cry foul if a second embargo was attempted.

Make yourself needed. The police have been praised by for stopping drugs and other trafficking and illegal immigrants. You might say a minor point but it makes them think.

Lastly be prepared to follow through and not join the eu.

RTG is right in his club analogy. Enter as a dickhead and they’ll keep calling you dickhead.

We have to break the accord and demand our rights just not yet. It cant go too long. The eu will force the issue as soon as the reforms near completion.

[Vangelovski]

Reforms by their very nature are never complete. What reform "completion" are you referring to?

[fyrOM]

How can I say this any more clearly. I am all for breaking the accord in due course which will be near. I have asked a number of questions which you have not answered. Standing up for yourself is great. I just wonder how brave you would be if confronted by 10 guys in a club and you have no friends with you. I understand your point but when were we in a position of power to do so without risking blowing up the whole place. Would bringing forward 2001 to 1995 or earlier when we even had limited weapons. Its hard to walk by when a group are spitting at you and calling you names. Strpenie spasenie. We need to be preparing for the inevitable day the accord is abandoned. I keep telling you I don’t expect it to go beyond 2 years. don’t say because of 2012. It is from what I read from time to time in the papers that the reforms are nearing completion.

[fyrOM]

I don’t have the articles as they are historic. But as part of the assessment for entry into the eu Macedonia was expected to reform all aspects to eu standards. Taxation legal and court proceedings rights for minorities anti discrimination laws including for gays ect. You name it its probably there. Have you not noticed the articles from time to time praising Macedonia for completing some reform and how well they are doing in implementing the reforms. Even the new passports and ids are part of it.

They also often mention that the name issue needs to be settled. The reforms will make us excellent candidates but we also need to think about the name.

And there is the key. If they can screw us for the name before the end of the reforms even better for them. Without the completion or near completion they will not offer us entry into the eu. Then they cannot push too hard on the name without a concrete offer into the eu. But once this is near I expect an ultimatum to be put to Macedonia along with a massive propaganda campaign about how unreasonable we are. Ok you lived in Macedonia for a millennium or so and for this reason we will let you use the word Macedonia in your name but do you have proof you are THE Macedonians or are you as we say a kind of Macedonian. And there’s the sting.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I just wonder how brave you would be if confronted by 10 guys in a club and you have no friends with you.

What does that have to do with anything? What would you do in such a situation? Or are you the type that only grows balls when he has his friends around?

[Vangelovski]

I think that OziMak, even though he knows he's going down, would let them have their way with him in the vain hope they won't hurt him too much.

[Volk]

You only fight battles you can win, if you think you have it in you to take on 10 guys, go for it. Look at Israel.

OziMak is saying what most rational people are thinking. Drag your feet in the 'talks' whilst preparing to completely withdraw from them.

And preparing means planning how to counter any possible after effects some of which could be: embargos, civil unrest - armed groups (albanians), international pressure, economic dependency.

If you look closely enough you should see progress in all of these departments by the government.

That is assuming this is their strategy of which we cannot be completely sure.