Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Bratot]

Here is article 23 of the interim accord:



Why does not Macedonia withdraw from the accord? It has legal right to do so according to the above article.

Not only that, either Party may unilaterally withdraw from the accord at any moment, but in case when one of the Parties violates the agreement than only on request of the damaged Party the agreement can become void and non-obligatory with such decission by the International Court of Justice.

The Agreement doesn't cease until one of the Parties doesn't withdraw the same or put a request for nullifying from obvious reasons already mentioned.

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see:

2. Any difference or dispute that arises between the Parties concerning the interpretation or implementation of this Interim Accord may be submitted by either of them to the International Court of Justice*, except for the differences referred to in Article 5, paragraph 1."



*
Jurisdiction

The International Court of Justice acts as a world court. The Court has a dual jurisdiction : it decides, in accordance with international law, disputes of a legal nature that are submitted to it by States (jurisdiction in contentious cases); and it gives advisory opinions on legal questions at the request of the organs of the United Nations or specialized agencies authorized to make such a request (advisory jurisdiction)."

Contentious Jurisdiction

In the exercise of its jurisdiction in contentious cases, the International Court of Justice has to decide, in accordance with international law, disputes of a legal nature that are submitted to it by States. An international legal dispute can be defined as a disagreement on a question of law or fact, a conflict, a clash of legal views or of interests.



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Because there has to be such formal initiative from either Party our Government has acted according to the directions given upper and:


The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia institutes proceedings against Greece for a violation of Article 11 of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index....363175f75762b0

The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia requests the Court to order Greece to “immediately take all necessary steps to comply with its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1” and “to cease and desist from objecting in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to the - 2 -
Applicant’s membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and/or of any other ‘international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions’ of which [Greece] is a member . . .”.

As a basis for the jurisdiction of the Court, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia invokes Article 21, paragraph 2, of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 which provides that “[a]ny difference or dispute that arises between the Parties concerning the interpretation of implementation of this Interim Accord may be submitted by either of them to the International Court of Justice, except for the differences referred to in Article 5, paragraph 1”.

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/142/14881.pdf

BUT our Government have NOT required this Agreement to be declared as void, invalid by the Int. Court!

[Bratot]

If I wasn't precise enough, after the period of 7 years the Interim Accord becomes infinite, if one of the Parties doesn't withdraw from it.

[Bratot]

As I already stated in the other thread, the acronym "FYROM" is purely Greek invention and formally doesn't exist.

They are forcing the invented acronym in order to imply different name such as "Fyrom" might be for a total stranger in this issue.

The temporarely reference is:"the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and has to be insisted on it's whole or to use the shortened version FYR of Macedonia.

[Vangelovski]

The only dignified exit, in my view, can be enacted at anytime and that is to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void'. The only thing stopping Macedonian politicians from doing this is their vassal interests. The only thing stopping ordinary Macedonians from demanding this is the vague and unsubstantiated apocalyptic senarios fed to them by their vassal politicians.

If Macedonia was to withdraw based on Article 23, it would have to recognise the Accord as valid. If it were to recognise the Accord as valid, it would legitimise the Greek argument that we are in fact stealing their history, name, identity etc.

Bratot,

You can push Gruevski's line, but you are delusional if you think having one name for international use and a second 'monopoly name' for domestic use only is not a name change.

[Risto the Great]

1. Go through the IJC to force Greece to let Macedonia in the eu and nato as is and work from there for permanent use of the name Macedonia given many members already recognise Macedonia by her name.

How? What mechanism or precedent are you relying on that will ensure this will happen. In fact, it would appear that 130 countries recognising are still not enough to solve this issue. More politically correct rubbish from you.

2. Delay jumping out of the process of gaining membership to improve our position ie better western style economy and democracy to remove objection ability of Macedonia as a country and get as much foreign investment in. And as Makedonin puts it making money. Does anyone have an objection to making money.

I love money. It moves me. But the kind of money that come from EU participation is merely driven by debt. Sure there will be a veneer of increased wealth. But Greeks will now tell you that they are hurting because of it. Bulgarians ... well ... they will probably be eating each other soon like some Russian caught making kebapi out of human beings recently.

4. Failing all this exercise the clause to exit the interim agreement and negotiations with the eu and nato while claiming they tried everything and seeing a total impasse has brought the decision. A kind of holding the moral high ground. This could be a time of Macedonia’s choosing or when a hard word for a decision is put on Macedonia. I don’t think many who advocate jumping out immediately or it should have been at some earlier time have considered patients for benefits and improving situation over bravado and indignation at the injustice of it all. The one thing I will say they are right about is that this course of action carried and continues to carry a high risk of some traitor getting in and following through with changing the name even if it means running for their life and looking over their shoulder for the rest of their life. Risky business I know but as I said in a previous post when have you known in Macedonian history of no risk and easy pass.

Failing all of this? Fifteen years of THIS is not enough?
I will agree with you that a traitor could sabotage all of your proposed process very easily. I also contend that Macedonia has had very few leaders with a clean record on matters of Macedonian integrity.

Whilst it is easy to point the bone at some who are displaying heroic tendencies, perhaps you should try to recall any moments of heroism displayed by Macedonia's leaders since the country seceded from Yugoslavia. In other words, maybe it is time for some heroism because all else has failed.

[Silver]

OM & Bratot, some comments and questions:

What benefits if any, do see which Macedonia would become endowed with if it ever does join the EU and what foreign investment would you be alluding to and from where? Spain? France? Italy? Indeed, let’s not forget how significant an investor 'Greece' is for Macedonia. We wouldn’t want to do anything to lose that valuable commodity for god sakes, right? What benefits have other countries like Croatia and Slovenia experienced since joining the EU? Have their problems disappeared and has their quality of life improved or will it ever? If so how?

Trade is very important of course but it's time for all of us to realize that Macedonia is very capable and it is solely responsible for creating its own wealth and we should stop waiting for the Germans or somebody else to come and give us a life. Through agriculture and resources alone Macedonia has the ability to market and sell what it wants to any offer. That in its self can create sufficient wealth needed to spur on both business and education that will eventually bring vibrancy and a standard of living we seem to be longing for and nothing else will. Foreign investment should be welcomed, but again, nothing will keep the prosperity in Macedonia except for Macedonian owned business and Macedonian interests. History shows us that foreign interests have only enslaved Macedonians for centuries. For example, the interest paid out from Turkish bonds. But add to the equation an illustrious past and some of the most beautiful scenery and nature anywhere on earth then what else can foreign aid do for Macedonia except create some jobs for a certain sector? There is no guarantee that these jobs will stay forever and if they don't what then? How does Macedonia diversify? If Macedonia is not in the EU will it be banned from trading with the EU or any of its member states? If so, then not only will we be in UN court fighting ‘Greece’ for our human rights we will also be in World Trade court fighting the EU. If we have to, then in good time all this will happen.

Now, when people who granted are frustrated, say that the best option for Macedonia is to tear up the agreement and walk away from talks with artificial 'Greece' we get the 'you're guilty of bravado' comebacks as to sort of bring us back to reality. Well then, tell me this: what exactly do you anticipate would happen if we did just that, walk away by ending the accord tomorrow? Would nobody want to associate with us? Would we be shunned and ignored? How ethical is that?

And let me ask you another question, what exactly do you anticipate artificial 'Greece' would do if Macedonia walks away from negotiating its name? Would they and perhaps their new friends 'Bulgaria' attack Macedonia and begin to exterminate our people? And who would let them? Would Europe stand by as it has in the past and simply watch it happen? Would they ignore it? Would even the whole world ignore something simply over a name? Should we go on as we are trying to join up with these clubs when they don't respect our human rights by not punishing ‘Greece’ and suspending its rights? Why are they incapable of doing anything about ‘Greece’s’ behavior and/or why do they tolerate it? Are the signs of a dysfunctional EU going to elude us forever?

Finally, are you of the opinion that it is 'Greece' and only 'Greece' who is responsible for all the problems Macedonia ever had or did the European Powers have something to do with it as well? Do you really expect any of us to believe that we'll be able to over- turn precedents or is it not true that we will have to submit to more ethnic cleansing in the future? If so, then you are advocating Macedonia to submit to it's murderers and to forget the past. Do not expect many Macedonians willing to join you. You can chalk it up to bravado but I can assure you friends it's a lot more than that.

[Vangelovski]

it's time for all of us to realize that Macedonia is very capable and it is solely responsible for creating its own wealth and we should stop waiting for the Germans or somebody else to come and give us a life.

This is why many Macedonians are afraid of freedom - they are afraid of the responsibility that comes from it. In order to avoid responsibility, they are not only willing to give up their own freedom, but that of their compatriots who rise to the challenge and accept their responsibilities.

These immature children are the Gligorovists who continue to argue that Macedonia "must" maintain its vassal status.

[Rogi]

Well, purely on a point of technicality, you are missing the 'T' in there, since the interim name is in fact 'The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'.

The word 'The' was added, because if it were just 'former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia', then the they would be seated right next to the Greeks in the UN.

[Risto the Great]

I would demand to sit next to the Greeks.
In my red & gold suit.

[Risto the Great]

Seriously, that agreement is utter bullshit. In exchange for stopping an embargo the Macedonians signed away their rights as a nation. But that is nothing compared to the Framework Agreement which signed away the nation itself.

Time for a hero I would say.

[Bratot]

The only dignified exit, in my view, can be enacted at anytime and that is to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void'. The only thing stopping Macedonian politicians from doing this is their vassal interests. The only thing stopping ordinary Macedonians from demanding this is the vague and unsubstantiated apocalyptic senarios fed to them by their vassal politicians.

If Macedonia was to withdraw based on Article 23, it would have to recognise the Accord as valid. If it were to recognise the Accord as valid, it would legitimise the Greek argument that we are in fact stealing their history, name, identity etc.

Bratot,

You can push Gruevski's line, but you are delusional if you think having one name for international use and a second 'monopoly name' for domestic use only is not a name change.

The Government of Macedonia did signed the Agreement.

And Vangelovski, you argumentation and assumtions are highly delusional and insiuative where the only way to support yourself is attaching to me "a Gruevski line" or to produce a fake picture of what I think although I clearly stated in this thread.

If you continue with this kind of bullshit I wont even bother replaying to you since you probably would die if not having the only and last word on this subject no matter how wrong you are.

[Vangelovski]

The Government of Macedonia did signed the Agreement.

And Vangelovski, you argumentation and assumtions are highly delusional and insiuative where the only way to support yourself is attaching to me "a Gruevski line" or to produce a fake picture of what I think although I clearly stated in this thread.

If you continue with this kind of bullshit I wont even bother replaying to you since you probably would die if not having the only and last word on this subject no matter how wrong you are.

Bratot,

Which arguments and "insinuations" in particular are "highly delusional"?

No one is disputing that an illegitimate government (that rigged elections to come to power) signed the Interim Accord.

There is nothing stopping the current Macedonian Government from declaring the Interim Accord 'null and void', other than individual politicians’ vassal interests. Macedonia can exercise the sovereign decision to declare the Accord ‘null and void’ at any time.

You are pushing the Gruevski line - no change to the "constitutional" name, but call us [insert name here] internationally as long as we get into the EU/NATO. Or are you saying that you came up with that idea all on your own?

[indigen]

Seriously, that agreement is utter bullshit. In exchange for stopping an embargo the Macedonians signed away their rights as a nation. But that is nothing compared to the Framework Agreement which signed away the nation itself.

Time for a hero I would say.

My sentiment is the same but I never thought I would see the day where the "patriotic" "VMRO"-"DPMNE" would be suing for the implementation of the "Interim Accord" and in the process designating Macedonia as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". "Nashite" vladi vekje odamna ja prekrstija drzhavata Makedonija vo "FYROM" (za nadvoreshna upotreba, ponekogash duri i za vnatreshni potrebi!) a nie im se lutime na EU i NATO koga treba da se ozhnee ona shto sme go poseale!

17/11/2008 - The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia institutes proceedings against Greece for a violation of Article 11 of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995

International Court of Justice

Application of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 (the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia v. Greece)

Latest developments in the case

# 16/03/2010 - The Court authorizes the submission of a Reply by the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and a Rejoinder by Greece, and fixes time-limits for the filing of these pleadings
# 12/03/2010 - Fixing of time-limits
# 22/01/2009 - Fixing of time-limits for the filing of the initial pleadings 2 Kb
# 20/01/2009 - Fixing of time-limits: Memorial and Counter-Memorial 45 Kb
# 17/11/2008 - The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia institutes proceedings against Greece for a violation of Article 11 of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 4 Kb

INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE
Peace Palace, Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ The Hague, Netherlands
Tel.: +31 (0)70 302 2323 Fax: +31 (0)70 364 9928
Website: www.icj-cij.org
Press Release
Unofficial
No. 2008/40
17 November 2008
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia institutes proceedings against Greece
for a violation of Article 11 of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995
THE HAGUE, 17 November 2008. The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia today
instituted proceedings before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) against Greece for what it
describes as “a flagrant violation of its obligations under Article 11” of the Interim Accord signed
by the Parties on 13 September 1995.
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia seeks “to protect its rights under the Interim
Accord and to ensure that it is allowed to exercise its rights as an independent State acting in
accordance with international law, including the right to pursue membership of relevant
international organisations”.
The Applicant contends that in accordance with Article 11, paragraph 1, of the Interim
Accord, Greece “has undertaken a binding obligation under international law ‘not to object to the
application by or the membership of [The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia] in
international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which [Greece] is a
member: however [Greece] reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and
to the extent [The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia] is to be referred to in such
organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council
resolution 817 (1993)’”, i.e. as “The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”.
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia contends that the Hellenic Republic violated
its rights under Article 11 by objecting, in April 2008, to its application to join NATO. The former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia contends, in particular, that Greece “veto[ed]” its application to
join NATO because Greece desires “to resolve the difference between the Parties concerning the
constitutional name of the Applicant as an essential precondition” for The former Yugoslav
Republic of Macedonia’s membership of NATO.
The Applicant argues that it has “met its obligations under the Interim Accord not to be
designated as a member of NATO with any designation other than ‘the former Yugoslav Republic
of Macedonia’” and it affirms that “the subject of this dispute does not concern ⎯ either directly or
indirectly ⎯ the difference [that has arisen between Greece and itself over its name]”.
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia requests the Court to order Greece to
“immediately take all necessary steps to comply with its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1”
and “to cease and desist from objecting in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to the
-2-
Applicant’s membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and/or of any other
‘international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions’ of which [Greece] is a
member . . .”.
As a basis for the jurisdiction of the Court, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
invokes Article 21, paragraph 2, of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 which provides that
“[a]ny difference or dispute that arises between the Parties concerning the interpretation of
implementation of this Interim Accord may be submitted by either of them to the International
Court of Justice, except for the differences referred to in Article 5, paragraph 1”.
___________
The full text of The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s Application will be available
shortly on the Court’s website (www.icj-cij.org).
___________
Information Department:
Mrs. Laurence Blairon, Secretary of the Court, Head of Department (+31 (0)70 302 2336)
Messrs. Boris Heim and Maxime Schouppe, Information Officers (+31 (0)70 302 2337)
Ms Joanne Moore, Associate Information Officer (+31 (0)70 302 2394)
Mrs. Barbara Dalsbaek, Administrative Assistant (+31 (0)70 302 2396)

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Which arguments and "insinuations" in particular are "highly delusional"?

No one is disputing that an illegitimate government (that rigged elections to come to power) signed the Interim Accord.

There is nothing stopping the current Macedonian Government from declaring the Interim Accord 'null and void', other than individual politicians’ vassal interests. Macedonia can exercise the sovereign decision to declare the Accord ‘null and void’ at any time.

You are pushing the Gruevski line - no change to the "constitutional" name, but call us [insert name here] internationally as long as we get into the EU/NATO. Or are you saying that you came up with that idea all on your own?

I do condemn and seek such declaration of the IA as 'null and void' and maybe you have not followed me 2 years ago so you might think or it suit to you thinking something else.

I start to think you are having your own purposes in playing the dumb here since I think I made myself enough clear.

You insinuate that I support "no change to the constitutional name" but I seek "another name" for international use as long as we get in NATO/EU - meaning double formula.

Than you compose your question to look as you confronte my 'real' position which you invented for yourself.

Your delussional argumentation say "no name change" and "no entering NATO/EU under the temp. reference " by presenting the reference as actually being the "international name" chosen by us.

The IA is already 15 years in USE, so if the temp. reference (that you obviously have difficulty to understand) was already a double name, we wouldn't be able to get more new countries to recognize us under the constitutional name and keeping that trend and we wouldn't be able to in practice the constitutional name in some of the internatinal relations including the bilatteral too.

The reference is exactly what it is - provisional reference - to be used only until the dispute is solved.

The provisional reference is NOT a name and what is more important to underline: "for all purposes within the United Nations"

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N93/240/37/IMG/N9324037.pdf?OpenElement

The question we should ask our self is why we allowed the provisional reference to be used outside of the UN and why we don't react to this nor for the acronym invention being in use by the Greeks!?!?

Important to mention that Greece haven't adopted the UN provisional reference and did not recognise our country under any name.

The reference is in USE whether we are or not members in NATO/EU, so if you really seek to abandon this IA and the provisional reference you should seek a solution.
The easiest way is to say - 'Just withdraw from the IA and that's it'.

It will pull appropriate consequences on us, whether you like to admit that or not, but if we show patience for lets say 5 additional years by becoming a NATO member meaning - getting bettered our diplomatic position and prevailing the use of our constitutional name within NATO (the ex. of Turkey) soon this provisional reference will become irrelevant and in such position we can easily abandon the IA with no consequences and without giving Greece the posibility to blackmail us further.

Basically we differ in the approaches in how to 'null and void' the IA, I would rather wait additional 10 - 20 years but to secure total win, than acting instictively and sabotage my long term interest and cause by putting myself in a position of being easily subjected of any kind of presure and have poor diplomatic tools to defend myself properly.

So, I would rather put it up with being a traitor in your dellusive eyes for the next 10 years but to provide prosper and a long term victory.

[johnMKD]

FYROM is indeed a Greek invention. I guess it's too difficult for them to say PGDM (ΠΓΔΜ) in Greek or they will swallow their tongues with so many consonants. FYR Macedonia is what the UN document states also in my opinion. i.e. it is Macedonia that used to be under the Yugoslavian state (control).