Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

Now that it has been clearly established that withdrawal from the Interim Accord will cause no damage whatsoever to Macedonia's UN Membership, albeit with the temporary name reference remaining until Macedonia's second move to rectify this.

It is time to put a complete spanner in the works

I'm doing this, to play the devil's advocate and purely so that we can get more arguments out into the open - which in turn helps us really analyse all potential outcomes and scenarios.

The following may be a near impossible scenario, or the most unliekely; if it were not Greece we were talking about.

Could Greece pretend to interpret Macedonia's withdrawal from the Interim Accord, and Macedonia notifying the UN of it's name change to the Republic of Macedonia, as a provocation so much so that Greece declares war on the Republic of Macedonia - a fake war, done for the purpose of Greece being able to implement a 'War Tax' on its' citizens, in order to raise the billions it needs to save itself from the weight of it's debts? Is that an unrealistic far-fetched scenario, even for an illogical and unreasonable Greece?

Rogi,

I think that is way too far-fetched.

However, for arguments sake, lets say they do declare a "fake" war in order to raise taxes? How does that affect Macedonia? Rather, it will further threaten their own financial position by scaring off even more investors and creditors.

Besides, there is no way the EU will tolerate that kind of rubbish. People forget that when Greece implemented its embargo in 1994, the EU itself instigated action against Greece at the European Court of Justice. It never supported Greece in the embargo nor would it support any Greek military adventurism - even fake adventurism.

[Onur]

The following may be a near impossible scenario, or the most unliekely; if it were not Greece we were talking about.

Greece cant do shit for the following 10 years with the foreign debt value of %120 of their GDP. For the next 10 years, they will try to survive and pay their debt and the bankruptcy is still on the table for them as a possible option.

They cant take any action neither politically nor military wise cuz they cant finance it economically since they don't have any credit for it.

Besides, I don't think Greece can dare to declare war vs. ROM even if they would be strong economically. It`s not possible unless some kind of Junta takes over the government of Greece and even if that happens, this would probably be the end of the Greece, since no one, especially Turkey cannot tolerate 2nd fascist Junta regime in Greece.

[fyrOM]

A strange suggestion for a possible name change and even stranger report about the pressures being put on the government.

Is it even possible to have a name like Republic of Macedonia (Vardar). It just sounds cinister. I don’t like any qualifier anyway but it also becomes nonsensical if one part of an area has a qualifier and the other parts don’t. I find it strange that those in the media or politics who put forward such qualifiers as a possible solution never complete the qualification by adding such tags to the other parts of Macedonia. As soon as you say there is a North you instantly have to have a South. Likewise if there is a Vardarska then there is an Agean Pirin and Mala Prespa.

Negotiations continue - CHOICE between two evils

July 2010

The Macedonian side is acceptable proposal Republic of Macedonia ( Vardar) , but the government also requires the new name will not be for general use, such as insisting Athens , according to " Nova Makedonija "foreign diplomatic sources. According to them, Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski was given the opportunity to choose the smaller of the two evils - a proposal for change of name would be better for Macedonia , or , what is the scope of use of the new name.

This means that if the Macedonian side insisted dodavkata be a dash or bracket , then the range of use will have to comply with the requirements of Greece. The same diplomatic sources briefing that Gruevski's statement sought to be between the word and the Republic of Macedonia ( for example . "Republic of Vardar Macedonia ") to be added but the constitutional name with a hyphen or parentheses. If the Macedonian side accepted the proposal "Republic of Vardar Macedonia, which Greek media bombastic announced that it will be a solution to the name that will be agreed this summer , then the compromise formula for explaining the diplomatic sources, Macedonia has the right to seek a new name not for general use and not have to use the countries that recognized us under its constitutional name.
Greek newspaper Ta Nea reported that the Greek side that hides Athens acceptable proposals "Republic of Northern Macedonia and Republic of Vardar Macedonia. According to the newspaper , the pressure is transferred to Skopje, Gruevski disappoint many with his behavior.
Greek Kathimerini citing diplomatic sources said it reached a solution to the dispute, which provides our state to use the name the longest river as a geographical reference . The newspaper said both sides will agree on the name of the river Vardar be used to distinguish between Macedonia and the region in Northern Greece which bears the same name.
"At this stage it is unclear whether FYROM called Vardar Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia ( Vardar ). Risto Nikovski , an adviser to President George Ivanov , last year proposed the Republic of Macedonia ( Vardar) as a promising compromise that does not involve changing the constitution " writes Kathimerini.
Western diplomatic sources "Kathimerini" brifirale that there is visible progress in negotiations after the Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou decided to have direct discussions with his Macedonian counterpart Nikola Gruevski, who is considered better than to permit negotiations to continue at a lower diplomatic level. "Ta Nea " writes that the two sides agreed to "Republic of Vardar Macedonia "after the immediate intervention of the U.S. and the EU.
"The proposal meets the Greek insistence on a name with a geographical determinant , on the other hand it is in wide use by the neighboring countries for distinguishing between Aegean Macedonia ( Greece), Pirin Macedonia ( Bulgaria ) , says "Ta Nea ".
Greek MEP and former Greek Foreign Ministry spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos said that the proposal meets the Greek insistence on geographical reference , but do not yet know the extent of use.
- Greek red line is known. Name with geographic determinant for overall usage. The proposal certainly meets these requirements , yet remains unknown scope of use. It is unclear whether the Government accepted discussion outside the framework of the United Nations and led secret negotiations - Koumoutsakos said .

ABOUT Macedonian side 'Vardar " is unacceptable

Diplomatic sources in the country yesterday for " Nova Makedonija " assessed that the proposal "Republic of Vardar Macedonia, the Macedonian side is unacceptable.
- It's a name for the past twenty years and more intensively in the past few years had become a mass, but it was always acceptable for the Macedonian side - say these sources.

Nikovski for "Republic of Macedonia (Vardar )

Any geographical determinant between the Republic of Macedonia and directly affects the identity of the Macedonian people and is unacceptable for Macedonia. Yesterday, the former Ambassador Risto evaluate Nikovski , who in January last year stirred up public opinion that najrealno solution of the dispute is "Republic of Macedonia ( Vardar) .
- Perhaps now more realistic to go to the "Republic of Macedonia ( Vardar) and I even wrote that we consider Vardar Macedonia have song " Oh age "etc. . but if you reach an appropriate solution , which will be the only for external use without changing the Constitution, even to change the Constitution with anything , but no other restrictions. We are then to remain Macedonia conferences everywhere , even to put in the Constitution "Republic of Macedonia ( Vardar ) , de facto it changes nothing , absolutely nothing , just a remark by geography.
I would accept it under one condition - that it is only for external use , without any restrictions - Macedonians, nouns, pronouns . That term is not nobody, Northern , Upper , Lower is absolutely unacceptable because they lead to destroy the Macedonian people - said in an interview Nikovski A1. President Ivanov backed away from such views of his adviser.

[Risto the Great]

Vreme: ‘Independent Republic of Macedonia – (Vardar)’ is Macedonian govt’s proposal

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n224715

The Macedonian government has suggested the name ‘Independent Republic of Macedonia – (Vardar)’ as a solution to the name dispute with Greece, Macedonian Vreme daily writes.
The proposal is semi-official and has been suggested through U.S. diplomats, the newspaper writes.
The proposal says that the new name would be used internationally and the Constitution would not have to be amended. The Macedonian initiative is a response to the Greek proposal – Vardar Macedonia.
UN mediator Matthew Nimitz has already got acquainted with both ideas and using them as a basis, he has to make a new proposal for a solution to the name row, Vreme writes.

Another example of stupidity coming from Macedonia.
Macedonians from Macedonia cannot be trusted to look after themselves.

[Vangelovski]

Its more of the same old insanity. It seems that in order to 'out do' Greece, they've proposed a prefix and a suffix. I wonder what Gruevski and co proposed as an ethnic identifier..."independent vardarians"?

[julie]

Macedonians in Macedonia - nay budali prosti narod vo svetot

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do we have the Vreme article and some further corroboration to confirm this Bulgar source?

[Bratot]

This is more than a speculations, since we know who owns the newspaper.

Независна Република Македонија - (Вардар) е последниот полуофицијален предлог што македонската страна преку американски дипломатски канали го има дадено како можност за евентуален компромис со Грција за решавање на спорот за името, дознава „Време“ од висок дипломатски извор.

and

Изворот на „Време“ смета дека притисокот на Американците, особено на амбасадорот Рикер кој барал Груевски да излезе со предлог, би можел да биде контрапродуктивен бидејќи двете страни може да го злоупотребат за да ги зацементираат своите позиции.

Journalistic shithole.

[fyrOM]

There was a similar article in Vest yesterday where the source was supposedly a government aid although there was no mention of the word Independent. I posted it in the thread Solution to the name dispute (?).

I don’t belive either story. I think it was put out there to test public opinion I think the Greeks and their backers have come to realize the word Vardar is least offensive than any of the other variations ie Northern ect. Having any word in front of Macedonia has been shouted down so now they are combining both as they see it least offensive variations ie Vardar after the word Macedonia and in brackets for good measure in the hope Macedonians will not see it as a loss of the word RoM and be just tired enough of the negotiations and waiting to access the eu that it will be acceptable.

[MacoLionHeartSun]

(Vardar) Disappointing , is the Macedonian government aware they are leading the general consensus of the Country?. Macedonia for Macedonians! There is and always was sufficient evidence to continue its stance on the world stage and claim all rights and refusal to the name RoM (Macedonia) . Razbudise Makedonija :rmacedonia

[Makedonetz]

Macedonia for the Macedonians.....nothing more or nothing less

[Bratot]

They tend to flood us with speculations for political points, nothing more.

But that our Government is going to sell us sose gakjite there is no doubt.

[MacoLionHeartSun]

Some of the people posting on this forum are very intelligent and connected to the UMD & AMHR etc and other Macedonian organizations, certainly there view would be Macedonia for Macedonians, Anything other than the Republic of Macedonia would compromise our identity, reflecting on a meaningless history for everything we have thought for and gained providing an uncertain future. Macedonia for Macedonians ONLY. Stand up and be proud Macedonians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[julie]

MLHS, yes there are many articulate, well educated people on this forum, most of them are indeed just that.
It is always difficult to have unification of people, especially our own. The AMHRC are doing wonderful work and have my full support, and always work without ego. The UMD unfortunately have not been representative of the entire diaspora, and as their name suggests, they should be working with the diaspora to assist RoM, instead of working with RoM to influence the diaspora on their poor leadership skills
I also have said we need complete unity, we dont need to agree with each other nor which bullshit political party should be in place, but read the Macedonian Cause on the thread here, if we can agree on that in principle and agree that the referendum will be detrimental to the sovereignty of our beautiful name and nation, then we are able to achieve something if we can work collaboratively
Unfortunately, as it always is with the Macedonian pig headed stubborness, we have difficulty achieving such a positive outcome, for anything .
I have always called for unity too and am fearful of the repercussions of this referendum.

[Volk]

There can be no 'deal' without the recognition of the Macedonian nation by the greeks. And since our existence is in fact what the actual issue is, any talks as such are simply suicidal

There is nothing to change, hopefully this is the usually garbage coming out of the crap heap