Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • DedoAleko
    Member
    • Jun 2009
    • 969

    Преговори без датум

    Преговори без датум



    Европската комисија (ЕК) се подготвува на 14 октомври годинава на Македонија да и' испорача преговори за членство, но нема да соопшти датум. Исто така, ќе биде споменато и големото значење на добрососедските односи, а во меѓувреме е можно да биде дефиниран поимот „добрососедски односи“, дознава „Дневник“.

    Според се' уште неофицијалните информации во Брисел и со оглед на четирите закони усвоени последниве седмици, екипата на комесарот за проширување Оли Рен на 14 октомври најверојатно ќе може да заклучи дека Македонија е на добар пат да се оспособи за членство во ЕУ. Но во оваа препорака нема да фигурира датум на кој преговорите би требало да стартуваат. Определувањето датум останува надлежност на земјите-членки и не постои правило што определува кога тоа треба да се случи. Оваа процедура, како и досега усвоените документи, во кои Македонија се условува со добрососедски односи и решение на спорот со името, и' овозможува на Грција да избегне да става вето.

    Во мислењето што ЕК го изработи за Хрватска во април 2004 година, за нејзината кандидатура за членство стои дека земјата е функционална демократија и функционална пазарна економија, како и тоа дека на среден рок ќе биде способна да се справи со обврските што ги носи членството. Покрај овие три Копенхагенски критериуми неопходни за почеток на преговори, ЕК во заклучокот додава и редица задачи што се' уште стојат пред Хрватска. Сепак, со оглед на исполнетите критериуми од Копенхаген, Комисијата „препорачува дека преговорите за членство со Хрватска би требало да почнат“. Во понатамошната хрватска приказна е запишан јуни 2004 кога на земјата и' е доделен кандидатски статус. Но, земјите-членки прв пат за датум за старт на преговори се произнесоа дури во март 2005 година, кога датумот го условија со барањето Хрватска на Хашкиот суд да му го предаде генералот Анте Готовина. На ваквата препорака Загреб одговори со акциски план за фаќање на генералот, усогласен со Хаг и со Брисел, кој даде резултат во октомври 2005 година, кога Готовина беше уапсен. Дури откако тогашната хашка обвинителка Карла дел Понте даде зелено светло за Загреб, преговорите стартуваа.

    - Хрватска никој не ја блокираше. Едноставно, немаше консензус за почеток на преговорите. Тоа е сценариото што најверојатно ја чека Македонија оваа есен - раскажува дипломат во Брисел.

    Брисел во октомври најверојатно ќе констатира дека Македонија ги исполнува трите Копенхагенски критериуми и врз основа на тоа ќе му препорача на Советот на ЕУ да почне преговори. Но, со оглед на тоа што датумот е во надлежност на земјите-членки, тие неговото определување може да го одлагаат и условуваат се' додека не констатираат дека сите услови се исполнети, а формално тоа нема да значи дека Грција ставила вето. Така треба да се толкуваат и изјавите на Оли Рен или на Ерван Фуере, кои редовно потсетуваат дека решавање на спорот со Грција не е услов за позитивен извештај на ЕУ, но може да го олесни и забрза стартот на преговорите.

    Според соговорникот на „Дневник“, постојат две работи што може долго да го одлагаат вистинскиот старт на преговори, а тоа се добрососедските односи и спроведувањето на усвоените закони.

    - Познато е дека Македонија има лоша репутација во спроведувањето на законите. Владата и Собранието ги донесуваат законите, но потоа нивното спроведување често е проблематично и не ги дава саканите резултати - вели познавачот на македонската политичка сцена.

    Добрососедските односи се уште еден елемент кој веќе долго се провлекува низ европските документи за Македонија. Тој прв пат беше „институционализиран“ на самитот во јуни 2008 година, со кој се затвори словенечкото претседателство со ЕУ. Тогаш лидерите на ЕУ во однос на Македонија заклучија дека „одржувањето на добрососедските односи, вклучително и преговарано и заеднички прифатливо решение за спорот со името остануваат есенцијални“.

    - Со оваа формулација на највисокото европско одлучувачко тело македонската судбина е запечатена уште пред повеќе од една година. Без решение за спорот никаде не може да се оди и никој нема да може да каже дека Грција ставила вето - објаснуваат во Брисел.
    Надежта на многумина во Брисел е дека шведското претседателство со ЕУ ќе успее до крајот на годината да издејствува дефинирање на поимот „добрососедски односи“.

    Во критериумите од Копенхаген не е експлицитно споменато дека добрососедството е услов. Овој пат би се одело на нивно прецизирање со кое би се избегнале интерпретации, вели еден дипломат. Според него, ваквото дефинирање не мора да биде лош сигнал за Македонија.

    - Дали, на пример, преименување на аеродром или автопат е доказ за нарушување на добрососедски односи? На ова прашање засега само Грција дава потврден одговор, а ЕУ ги следи желбите на својот партнер - велат во Брисел, каде што веруваат дека дефинирање на поимот би можело да биде позитивен чекор.

    Наша дописничка од Брисел
    Светлана Јовановска

    izvor: http://dnevnik.com.mk/?itemID=FDE797...490F9DC4&arc=1

    What else is "new"! KURVOOO Vavilonska!!
    eu =

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15659

      Добрососедските односи се уште еден елемент кој веќе долго се провлекува низ европските документи за Македонија. Тој прв пат беше „институционализиран“ на самитот во јуни 2008 година, со кој се затвори словенечкото претседателство со ЕУ. Тогаш лидерите на ЕУ во однос на Македонија заклучија дека „одржувањето на добрососедските односи, вклучително и преговарано и заеднички прифатливо решение за спорот со името остануваат есенцијални“.
      Same rubbish ... I can't think of anything more to add.
      When will Macedonia take the offensive in relation to this matter!
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • DedoAleko
        Member
        • Jun 2009
        • 969

        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
        Same rubbish ... I can't think of anything more to add.
        When will Macedonia take the offensive in relation to this matter!
        What do you mean by offensive? I personaly think we move veeeery slowly towards the goal-regarding the name issue,BUT we move!
        I doubt there is such thing as an "instant solution"!
        We're well aware who created greekestain!

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15659

          I mean it is time for Macedonia to "attack" by saying "offensive".
          You might have taken the other meaning for the word Dedo.

          Macedonia should explain to the EU that it stands for freedom, self-identification and sovereignty. That it cannot help Greece with its unhealthy fixation on names. That it is time for the EU to once and for all tell Greece to stop sulking and move forward.

          What do you mean by moving slowly towards a goal in relation to the name issue Dedo? The goal for me is to avoid useless dialogue which proposes to erase my identity.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • King Makedon
            Member
            • Apr 2009
            • 187

            Macedonia should still play this game for at least one or two years, to show our good will towards integration. If there will be no solution we should stop negotiating.
            I am even for now, but reminding my self of the situation west and northwest of our border it would be better to wait one or two years so those countries can stabilize them selves a bit.

            We should defend our priceless freedom in any case. Even if we have to wait another two years. we have waited now 18 years so it won't kill us it'll make us even more stronger and more united.
            the time is running on our side.
            Last edited by King Makedon; 09-10-2009, 11:35 PM.
            ]
            The world belongs to Macedonia. Macedonia does not belong to the world, especially not to Macedonia's neighbouring countries.
            [/SIZE]

            Comment

            • Jankovska
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1774

              Macedonia should stop playing this game, NOW. The goverment must stop playing with my name, your name and everyone elses name and move away from it. EU will not happen. Stop playing the people and start working for the country.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                Macedonia should stop playing this game, NOW.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  SOM do you know of any email(s) we can write to the macedonian govt or the politicians to tell them how we feel from the diaspora.To tell them it's not too late & they should not play with us as we do not want any negotiations on our name.We decided allready whom we are & don't need anyone to tell us.
                  Regards
                  George S.
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • DedoAleko
                    Member
                    • Jun 2009
                    • 969

                    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                    I mean it is time for Macedonia to "attack" by saying "offensive".
                    You might have taken the other meaning for the word Dedo.

                    Macedonia should explain to the EU that it stands for freedom, self-identification and sovereignty. That it cannot help Greece with its unhealthy fixation on names. That it is time for the EU to once and for all tell Greece to stop sulking and move forward.

                    What do you mean by moving slowly towards a goal in relation to the name issue Dedo? The goal for me is to avoid useless dialogue which proposes to erase my identity.
                    First, I got the right meaning for the word.
                    We do move (veeery slowly unfortunately) towards the goal Risto! USA, Russia, India, Canada, China, Botswana...120-130 countries.Rings any bells?
                    And look at us,the Macedonians!
                    We have never been more united (though there's tons of work left to be done)!We are awake (well,most of us : ), We know our enemies,We know what We want... That is huge!
                    IF WE ARE UNITED,OUR ENEMIES CAN JUST SUCK OUR COJONES!
                    And we do have our little attacks from time to time, especially these last couple of years! The Airport,Monuments,Rainbow,Egejci's lawsuit...
                    You also mention that we should "explain" to EU(!?)
                    It's not like Europe doesn't know what's going on about Macedonia!
                    Because of this very same Europe, Macedonia is in this position!!
                    But there are ways. We musn't think only with our hearts Risto. We must play smart!
                    We must beat them in the game they invented!
                    AND WE WILL WIN (though I sometines think that we already won)!

                    God Bless Macedonia

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13675

                      Originally posted by George S. View Post
                      SOM do you know of any email(s) we can write to the macedonian govt or the politicians to tell them how we feel from the diaspora.To tell them it's not too late & they should not play with us as we do not want any negotiations on our name.We decided allready whom we are & don't need anyone to tell us.
                      Regards
                      George S.
                      George, the government website probably has a 'contact us' email, I am sure the government is well aware of the Diaspora's position, we just need to keep reminding them of how important this issue is to all Macedonians, not just those that live in the republic.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        Originally posted by DedoAleko View Post
                        First, I got the right meaning for the word.
                        We do move (veeery slowly unfortunately) towards the goal Risto! USA, Russia, India, Canada, China, Botswana...120-130 countries.Rings any bells?
                        And look at us,the Macedonians!
                        We have never been more united (though there's tons of work left to be done)!We are awake (well,most of us : ), We know our enemies,We know what We want... That is huge!
                        IF WE ARE UNITED,OUR ENEMIES CAN JUST SUCK OUR COJONES!
                        And we do have our little attacks from time to time, especially these last couple of years! The Airport,Monuments,Rainbow,Egejci's lawsuit...
                        You also mention that we should "explain" to EU(!?)
                        It's not like Europe doesn't know what's going on about Macedonia!
                        Because of this very same Europe, Macedonia is in this position!!
                        But there are ways. We musn't think only with our hearts Risto. We must play smart!
                        We must beat them in the game they invented!
                        AND WE WILL WIN (though I sometines think that we already won)!

                        God Bless Macedonia
                        Hi Dedo Aleko, if I may ask, what negatives / positives do you foresee if Macedonia pulls out of the negotiations tomorrow? Will Russia, U.S, China or any others withdraw their recognition? Will Europe place sanctions on us? Appreciate your thoughts.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • DedoAleko
                          Member
                          • Jun 2009
                          • 969

                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          Hi Dedo Aleko, if I may ask, what negatives / positives do you foresee if Macedonia pulls out of the negotiations tomorrow? Will Russia, U.S, China or any others withdraw their recognition? Will Europe place sanctions on us? Appreciate your thoughts.
                          As I naively and humbly assume, Russia,USA,India,Canada will never lick what they spat!
                          Most of the states that recognise us as Republic of Macedonia will do the same, BUT what if...!
                          From soo many countries we get tap on the shoulders, but that is all!! They simply can not be trusted!
                          We must also be prepared that the Macedonian story wont end soon! It sure didn’t start with us and it won’t end any soon!
                          The victory is what matters!
                          SOM,I doubt eu =the whore will pull out some new trick. All the cards are open and on the table!
                          Najvazno e da rabotime i da ziveeme za Makedonija! Zaedno!!
                          Ako sme slozni i obedineti ne postoi sila na planetata koja moze da ne pobedi!!!

                          Comment

                          • Jankovska
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1774

                            If Macedonia pulls out of the negotiations nothing serious will happen. The Greeks will throw few more tantrums, but they do that anyway. They will probably try and put us on the same table again which is fine but this time we will set our rules down, not play by the rules a commie set for us. Greece will not attack us military, they can't touch us. They will cry around and the US probably will make us talk again but this time we will be the ones who are playing hard. See nothing much will change, we will just probably get more control on how we will play this game. Now the rules have been set by some commie who was scared shitless of the Greeks and we just blindly follow.

                            Comment

                            • Daskalot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 4345

                              More on the Name Dispute



                              More on the Name Dispute

                              Risto Stefov

                              September 10, 2009


                              Some of you have written to me and are upset because I have not taken a stronger stand against the so-called "name negotiations" between Macedonia and Greece. At the same time some of you have written to let me know that I should trust the Macedonian government because it has an agenda, knows what it´s doing and is only pressured by outside powers to continue to negotiate.

                              Well, you are all right! But then since you asked, here is what I think.

                              This is a multi-level problem that involves many things. First it involves me and my own desires and beliefs. It involves every Macedonian on the planet and their desires and beliefs. It involves the Macedonian government´s policies, agendas and outside pressure to continue the talks. It involves hidden agendas of individuals and groups. It involves loyalties, blind trust and some general confusion on the part of many people.

                              But what I believe "should happen", and that applies to most patriotic Macedonians, has nothing to do with what the government or anybody else believes should happen. Let´s make that very clear!

                              Irrespective of the current situation of the so-called "name negotiations", I ask myself "do I feel comfortable that the name of my country should be negotiated under any circumstances?" This is a personal question that everyone should be asking themselves. Irrespective of what the Macedonian government is doing or not doing and how well it is handling the situation, "do I want anyone to negotiate changing the name of my country?" My personal answer to this question is a big stern "NO!". No one has the right to change my country´s name no matter what their reasons! This is my personal opinion which reflects what I believe and how I feel and has nothing to do with "trusting" the Macedonian government or any other body in "doing the right thing".

                              Now as a single person I can neither influence nor stop the Macedonian government from negotiating our country´s name. But as a single person I am responsible to voice my real feeling about the process. It is my duty to let the Macedonian government know exactly how I feel! This is the only way that the government will know and understand what I think and how I feel. If I place my trust in the government and think the government "knows what I think" and "knows what it is doing" and say nothing about how I feel then I am afraid I will have to live with the consequences of "having done nothing", especially if the government decides to change the name. And why would the government change the name? Because like me everyone else trusted the government and allowed it to do the "right thing" and the right thing for the government of course was to take the path of least resistance. Not having told the government how we feel, the government would naturally assume that we all agree that our name can be negotiated and if it can be negotiated then it can be changed. How many times in history have Macedonians made this mistake; allowing governments to think for them?

                              Do you want to help the Macedonian government do its job? Then do the right thing and feel good about it by telling those in parliament exactly what you think and feel. Those people in parliament are the servants you elected to represent you and your interests. How will they know what you want and what your interests are if you don´t loudly and clearly tell them? Do yourself a favour and do not confuse what the "government might do" with what "you want the government to do". You want Gruevski "to get the monkey off his back" then tell him exactly how you feel! After all he is there to represent you and your interests! You are the boss!

                              I listened to one of Gruevski´s speeches very carefully and he did hint that there is tremendous pressure for his government to continue the name negotiations. That is why I feel compelled to tell him what I think. The only way we can help the Macedonian government to fight off this "outside pressure" is by letting it know what we think and how we feel. Gruevski, we know you are doing an excellent job and we commend you for it. We also know you are under tremendous pressure to continue the negotiations. That is why it is our duty to remind you to tell those who pressure you that "we will never accept a name change". We know you are conducting the negotiation, probably against your will, but also know this that "negotiating our name" is an embarrassment to us, to our nation, to our identity and to our ancestors who spilled blood to bring us this far. You have to do what you have to do but please let everyone know how we feel!

                              Now there are also those who support the name negotiations thinking they are in support of the government. My opinion on this is twofold. One, these individuals are either confused or misinformed or two, they have a hidden anti-Macedonian agenda.


                              For those who truly "don´t know" and think "it is okay to give a little on the name" think of it this way. If some individual, who is probably your worst enemy and would rather see you dead than alive, comes to you and says "I demand that you change you last name because some person in my extended family has the same name". Would you do it? Would you disassociate yourself from your own family and from your own past just to please this person who truly hates you? And what do you think you will accomplish if you do? Do you think that doing "harm" to yourself "voluntarily" will make this person like you and respect you? What will your family and friends think of you? Will you feel any better by doing it and will you gain the respect and understanding you seek from your peers?

                              No you will not! You will however become "the laughing stock of the neighbourhood", a fool and a pushover who can easily be manipulated.

                              If you support a name change, please think about it very carefully and support it because you understand it and its implications.

                              There are also those who do have hidden agendas and are truly working diligently and patiently against the Macedonian cause who will tell you that it´s okay to "give a little" because of the "potential benefits" you will receive. These people are amongst us and very active in our communities these days; I will go as far as to say that some are highly visible, focused, vocal and appear to be very patriotic when they speak. They need to be in order to establish themselves as "the good guys" and gain the trust of the Macedonian people. I can´t tell you who they are but I can tell you that I have repeatedly seen them in the last century of our recent history. You will have to truly question the motives of today´s most patriotic Macedonians who only yesterday were the staunchest Grkomani, Serbomani and Bulgaromani! I will leave it at that!

                              For those who are loyal to Macedonia and want to help the Macedonian cause there should be no confusion as to what is right and what is wrong. Greece has stolen more than half of Macedonia from the Macedonian people. But above and beyond all that, Greece has done a lot of harm against the Macedonian people starting with several genocides, land confiscations, exiling of people, burning of villages and homes, jailing, name changes, forced assimilation, prohibiting the speaking of the Macedonian language, destruction of Macedonian cultural and other monuments, burning of books, etc. No other conqueror, except for Greece, has ever imposed itself so harshly on Macedonia and the Macedonian people to a point of not only wanting to conquer all of Macedonia but to forever extinguish everything that is Macedonian from language, culture, to the Macedonian ethnic identity.

                              Now that we are very clear and understand, as Macedonians, exactly where we stand with Greece why should we do anything to please Greece. Why should we place ourselves in an even more "compromising positions" than we currently are in just to please Greece?

                              I would also like to leave you with this warning! Greece will not relent no matter what we do and how much we compromise on the name or anything else for that matter. Greece´s aim is to conquer all of Macedonia and forever eliminate and extinguish everything that is Macedonian. If today´s powers want Macedonia to continue to negotiate with Greece, there must be a reason for it which we don´t yet understand. But at the same time those powers WILL force Macedonia to "compromise" if we all don´t stand up and speak our minds with a single voice and say "NO!" to any compromises. If we don´t tell them, how will they know?

                              Again for the record I need to remind you that Greece has concocted this "name issue" to confuse the world and the Macedonian people about what is really going on and to put the Macedonian government on the defensive. Any Macedonian who was born and lived in Greece can tell you "how much" Greeks love the name "Macedonia". They love it so much they were willing to murder people for just saying they were Macedonians. They "loved it so much" that the "M" word had become a dirty word NEVER to be spoken in public or in private.

                              Please do not allow others to speak for you, especially if you don´t know what they will say and for God´s sake don´t confuse what you want with what the government and other powers want.

                              Again, irrespective of your trust in the government "to do the right thing" you must let it know what "the right thing is" for you! I can´t emphasize that enough!
                              I cannot remember if this has been posted, so here goes!
                              Macedonian Truth Organisation

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15659

                                Main challenges for Greece's new government



                                Oct 4 (Reuters) - Greece's socialist PASOK party returned to power on Sunday after more than five years in the opposition. With a comfortable majority, it will govern a country which narrowly avoided a recession this summer and which is regarded as one of the euro zone's weakest links.

                                Here are some of the main challenges Greece's new government faces:

                                DEBT

                                Seen by investors as the euro zone's soft underbelly, Greece has the currency bloc's second biggest debt as a percentage of GDP after Italy. Debt is forecast at 103.4 percent in 2009.

                                Yield spreads on Greek bonds over German bunds hit a record high in February, as investors fled the euro area's periphery during the financial crisis. Although spreads have now returned to more normal levels, Greece's ballooning debt remains the economy's most serious risk.

                                Rating agencies Fitch and Moody's have downgraded their outlook on Greek government bond ratings, citing concerns over the impact of the economic downturn on public finances. Standard & Poor's cut Greece's rating to A- in January.

                                SLOW REFORMS, PRIVATISATIONS

                                Greece faces the risk of extended slow economic growth if it fails to adopt structural measures to boost competitiveness and correct its fiscal imbalances, the EU and the IMF have said.

                                But facing street protests and resistance within its own ranks, the outgoing conservative government was slow to implement the required structural reforms.

                                In 2008, an overhaul of the social security system, which experts warned would collapse in 15 years due to an ageing population, fell short of what was necessary. Education reform, seen as crucial to making the labour market more competitive, met a similar fate amid violent protests.

                                The government was more successful with privatisations. It sold a stake in telecom OTE to Deutsche Telekom (DT) and privatised cash-strapped Olympic Airlines.

                                ECONOMIC RISKS

                                Greece's economy, which makes up about 2.5 percent of the euro zone's total, is forecast to slide into recession this year for the first time since 1993.

                                Tourism and shipping remain Greece's main economic pillars, making it particularly vulnerable to the global downturn. Although shipping has shown signs of recovery, tourism has been especially hurt this year.

                                Greek banks, although largely safe from the toxic assets which brought down global giants, have invested heavily in the Balkans and their profit growth has waned as the once-booming economies of eastern Europe slow down.

                                Standard & Poor's views Greece's banks as facing the highest long-term economic risks in western Europe.

                                SOCIAL UNREST/VIOLENCE After Greece's worst riots in decades in December 2008, violence has simmered with frequent gas canister attacks and some bombings. The riots were triggered by the police killing of a teenager and fanned by high youth unemployment as well as mistrust of the political system.

                                Calm soon returned but far-left and anarchist groups have renewed attacks on businesses and police, culminating with the killing of a policeman in June. Leftist guerrillas claimed responsibility for a bomb that went off on Friday near a conservative rally but caused no injuries.

                                Analysts say that another flare-up is possible as long as the roots of dissatisfaction remain.

                                (Reporting by Athens bureau; Editing by Sonya Hepinstall)
                                I note Macedonia was not mentioned once. And for good reason, Greece should worry about far more important things.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X