Turkish forces liquidated 15 women PKK fighters

[Vangelovski]

George, I've never advocated "not being friends" with anyone. I'm asking about your obsession with Turkey. So what if they recognised our name - that is what they are required to do, its not extraordinary. I have not seen anything out of the normal from Turkey and you have not provided any examples.

[George S.]

Where does it say they are required to call us republic of macedonia they could call us fyrom.I think you take it for granted that is what they are required by whom???There are quite a number of countries that call us fyrom & turkey could have called us fyrom .But they chose to call us by our constitutional name.Turkey & macedonia have signed pacts of friendship & have become allies.So tom you take this litely where macedonia is concerned i take it seriously & in one of my posts i have said it is probably the only good thing the macedonian govt has done with turkey to become real friends & allies.Name any other country macedonia has done that with.Also are you aware how many tourists from turkey go to macedonia for cultural reasons etc.Also what a high regard the turks have for macedonia.I would not be surprised one iota if in the event of war turkey comes to macedonia to offer aid & macedonia offer it's friend & alllie help in a limited way as we are not a big country.But the spirit is there betweeen mutually respectable countries.

[Onur]

I'm asking about your obsession with Turkey. So what if they recognised our name - that is what they are required to do, its not extraordinary. I have not seen anything out of the normal from Turkey and you have not provided any examples.

The real question here is; "What is your obsession with Turkey, Vangelovski?".

Did you forget that whole EU calls you as FYROM, as well as your homeland Australia? If this is not a norm, then campaign in Australia rather than questioning Turkey`s role just because of your false ideas. Lets assume what you say is true and Turkey is neutral against Macedonia. That would be considered as big plus too because nearly all the Macedonia`s neighbors are hostile. Most of them deny your identity, one vetoes you in every international organization and the other trying to lure your people by calling them as Bulgarians in denial. At least Turkey doesn't do neither of those.

But it`s pointless to remind these facts to you because it`s you who has obsessions towards Turkey.

[George S.]

Spot on the very things you accuse me like an obseession it's not just a healthy respect knowing we have real friends in turkey.Which country are we in that much,they are all hostile to us.Also given that you are obseesed at why turkey is friendly with macedonia & vice versa.Don't you think that they should progress.That is exactly what is happening it is progressing extremely well.Living in australia some of us not included myself have become insular & apprehensive .Also by your apprehension you are accusing us the ones that support both macedonia & turkey to progress together.You don't really like what's going on & so you dissaprove of this friendship altogether.I think it's on the basis of personal prejudice & racisim.Or perhaps what you are advocating is we go into reverse
& upset our friends enough to call us fyrom & not republic of macedonia.
Onur is spot on that turkey is a real friend to us perhaps our only friend in the vicinity one we can count on.In my opinion i reckon it's the only right thing macedonia has done so far.Or would you advocate no friends or anything because of racisim & a couldn't care attitude.

[Zarni]

Turkey was the first Country to establish Diplomatic Relations with Macedonia

It has no open issues and no pretext to it, to Turkey Macedonia is Macedonia and has repeatedly poked Greece to remind her with no response by Athens whilst our European "friends" who say they support us not a solitary State recognises Macedonia but certainly do FYROM

Perhaps Croatia is another friend, but I would bet EU nudging Zagreb will become a norm and you will see Croatia pulling a Slovenia after it was given EU membership status I respect Turkey the only Country in our region that deserves it.

[Vangelovski]

George,

What are you on about!? The absolute minimum requirement for any state is to abide by basic fundamental standards and one of those is to respect the sovereignty of other states, including recognising their name. If you have not understood this, then you have not understood anything about what Greece is doing over the past two decades. The fact that Turkey recognises our name is NOTHING SPECIAL. Its an absolute minimum requirement in the relations between two sovereign states.

Their private sector investments are made for a return - they are not charitable in which Macedonia gains and private Turkish citizens are doing us some sort of favour.

If you think Turkey would assist Macedonia in war, where was it in 2001? Your obsession with the Turks is uninformed, emotional and shallow.

[Vangelovski]

The real question here is; "What is your obsession with Turkey, Vangelovski?".

Did you forget that whole EU calls you as FYROM, as well as your homeland Australia? If this is not a norm, then campaign in Australia rather than questioning Turkey`s role just because of your false ideas. Lets assume what you say is true and Turkey is neutral against Macedonia. That would be considered as big plus too because nearly all the Macedonia`s neighbors are hostile. Most of them deny your identity, one vetoes you in every international organization and the other trying to lure your people by calling them as Bulgarians in denial. At least Turkey doesn't do neither of those.

But it`s pointless to remind these facts to you because it`s you who has obsessions towards Turkey.

What "facts" are these Onur? They are irrelevant. They are something that a sovereign state is morally obliged to do in relation to other sovereign states. They are nothing EXTRAORDINARY.

If you have not noticed, I don't have an obsession with Turkey. Turkey has no significant impact on Macedonian affairs and that is why I'm questioning some of the posters' blind allegiance to Turkey. By claiming that inalienable natural rights and responsibilities are irrelevant, they are directly attacking the core of the Macedonian cause. If they don't think so, then they should explain what they believe the Macedonian cause is and why they think natural law is irrelevant to the cause. Note that I am not saying that friendship with Turkey is contrary to the cause, but their attack on inalienable natural rights and responsibilities is what is contrary to the cause.

If this is really the case, then I think they'll find they are at odds with the MTO definition of the cause.

[George S.]

Tom can you tell greece & australia to recognize us & apply the same logic.You are jumping the gun there.Who said that turkey has given this or that.But whatever they did it's friendly relations of countries which obviously you don't count important at all.So macedonia & turkey have formed relations of which you aren't happy with admit it,perhaps you desire it to be with someone else who is it pray tell.Also you are making a lot of who ha about nothing.Macedonians & turks have friendly relations so what it's for the better.It's the right thing to do in the circumstances especially the greeks.

[George S.]

Tom i can tell you don't like turks & you don't want them on this forum but you seem obsessed what do you think they should have done for macedonia wipe greece off the map??that would be extraordinary.Macedonia being under turkey for 500 years is the only country that understands macedonia & has formed friendly relations with macedonia.What are you insuniating that they shouldn't form alliances & friendly peace pacts??It's definitely good for macedonia that they are friendly given the circumstances.

[Zarni]

It can be said Kosovo has a direct and noticeable impact on Macedonian affairs it is probably the only entity in Europe that does
Macedonia does not have a partner like Croatia has Germany, Turkey is the most positive alley we have.

Turkeys internal problem with the Kurds doesn’t clash with any Macedonian Interests of friendship

Kurds are separatists trying to carve out a slice of Turkey for a Greater Kurdistan
and Albanians are separatists trying to carve out Macedonian Land for the same goal
we have a similar struggle in that regard with Turkey and hence no dilemma supporting Turkey
we would be undermining ourselves if we didn't support Turkey

Spain does not recognise Kosovo as an Independent State why do you think the Spanish Government holds to that platform

[George S.]

"I am not saying that friendship with Turkey is contrary to the cause, but their attack on inalienable natural rights and responsibilities is what is contrary to the cause." tom you are going around in circles here first you say it doesn't matter then it matters,then you jump the gun & say it effects the macedonian cause BULLSHIT.It doesn't it actually BOLSTERS the Macedonian cause because it's all to do with like mindedness.The turks whil'st they have their cause is supportive of everything macedonia has done as far as greece is concerned turkey has expressed that it's not happy for what the greeks are doing.It's offering support to macedonia.So to say being friendly with another country affects our cause.What part of the cause does it affect specifically.You accuse us of not explaing ourselves how about you explaining yourself.So tom by your standards we should'nt be friendly with anyone as we are surrendering some of our cause to that country or we would lose soveregnity or being made to look weak.How crazy is that analysis.I'm more for friendliness with other states anything that is going to imrove the status of macedonia.Claerly being friendly has not damaged macedonia one iota.
You tom just don't want macedonia to be friendly with anyone pure & simple.What are we harboring a few racist fears.Oh the turks are coming to get me!!Well it's ok mate the minute you convince me that australia should recognize us & greece who we are i'll beleive you.At the moment i would rather have one friend better than none at all.

[Risto the Great]

Part of the slave mindset includes being grateful if someone calls us by our name. Think about it.

[Vangelovski]

George, you are the only one going around in circles (along with Zarni). I've made it clear that I expect Macedonia to have normal relations with all states. I've also made it clear that Turkey and Macedonia do not have a special relationship like you claimed they do. Now you are supposedly arguing that Macedonia and Turkey do not have a special relationship...or are you? Do you even know what you are arguing?

Further, I SAID THAT BEING FRIENDS WITH TURKEY IS NOT CONTRARY TO THE CAUSE, BUT CLAIMING NATURAL RIGHTS ARE A FIGMENT OF THE IMAGINATION IS - CAN YOU READ AND COMPREHEND?

Previously, you claimed that natural rights were a 'figment of the imagination' and that we should ignore Turkey's wrongs for the sake of some "special" relationship we supposedly have with them. You failed to demonstrate that special relationship and that is because nonE exists. Seeing as you think natural rights are a 'figment of the imagination' and that is the core of what I and the MTO believe is the Macedonian cause, it appears you disagree with us. CAN YOU TELL ME, THEN, WHAT YOU THINK IS THE MACEDONIAN CAUSE?

[Vangelovski]

Zarni, how can you not understand the FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE between the Kurds and the Albanians? Turkey is an OCCUPYING POWER in Kurdistan which belongs to the Kurds. The Albanians are a SETTLER group in Macedonia.

[George S.]

"Ignore Turkey's wrongs for the sake of some "special" relationship we supposedly have with them. it appears you disagree with us. CAN YOU TELL ME, THEN, WHAT YOU THINK IS THE MACEDONIAN CAUSE?"

It's you who istwisting it around i said they have friendly relationship of which you later said there is nothing wrong but you said it's not a special relationship.I said it is in that it is different to the bulgarian etc it seems to be based on mutual trust etc of both parties
like they have awareness of what went on in the past & moved on to the future.I said how can this conflict with the macedonian cause,because having friendly relationships would be healthier.Also turkey was the first to have recognized macedonia under it's constitutional name.Also how is being friendly & exchanging cultural ties not important..
The other thing if it was the norm of countries to recognise Macedonia not as fyrom but under the proper name why don't they & why is it normal that they should the could & have gone the other way.Also as some of you think that everything is a a slave like mentality.What relationship has that got wanting peacefull relationship with your neighbour.Please contrast that with the other neighbours of hate & wanting to destroy macedonia & not permitting macedonia to use her constitutional name.Preventing & interfeering in macedonia's internal affairs.So turkey is a real friend in the recognition stakes.I beleive what turkey has done is special in the region in the balkans that you take for granted.I think others will agree that as well is not a bad thing for the cause.
I'm getting the vibes you don't particularly like friendly relations with turkey that you cannot move on because of the past actions of turkey.I think it's time to move on & embrace the future together with our neighbour turkey..
Tom let's not beat around the bush i'm for macedonia having a friendly relationship,whatever that relationship so far has been good & what you consider normal in the balkans i consider it exeplary.If there is anything of concern to macedonia in the due course they would have expressed it otherwise they may not have proceeded with friendly relations.As far as i can see macedonia has done the right thing by being friendly with turkey.So let's not beat around the bush & in circles i'm for it because friendly relations of macedonia is good & can only benefit macedonia & are good for the cause.
"CAN YOU TELL ME, THEN, WHAT YOU THINK IS THE MACEDONIAN CAUSE?" the macedonian cause it's to be friendly with other states in the region & the whole world,having bilateral relations,embassies.Working on projects both in macedonia & in turkey,abolishing visas etcIn other words working for the betterment of the whole of the country that's the cause.