Turkish forces liquidated 15 women PKK fighters

[Onur]

Obviously you don't think the recent donation was influenced by the defense minister. I only asked your thoughts. It seems to be one of the largest donations from Turkey.

You haven't answered WHY this support even exists.

I still don't believe Turkey is doing this out of the goodness of its heart and question its motivations. All donations are welcomed by a poor country though.

Could this support be backdoor support coming from the USA? There has been some very strange arrangements between USA & Turkey in the past.

What are your thoughts on this?

Macedonia is not the only country where Turkey does free donations. We also give donations to Turkic states and some countries like Pakistan etc. As far as i know, Turkey only donates it`s own equipment, 100% made in Turkey because according to NATO rules, none of it`s members can give any NATO equipment to the 3rd parties (non members). It`s not allowed otherwise we could send 10s of warplanes and everything else to Azerbaijan and Greece could have donate same to Greek Cyprus but we cant.

What will Macedonia do in the next civil war if it's ally Turkey says it needs to be more sympathetic to the ethnic Albanians?

Actually, the real question should be;
What Turkey should do in a possible civil war between Kurds&Turks if Macedonia supports Kurds and division of 1000 year old Turkey just as Greece does? Imho, this one has much higher possibility than your scenario.

Current communication between Macedonia & Turkey is via an ethnic Albanian defense minister. Do you think he will be immediately forgotten if a civil war erupts? I would imagine Turkey will remember him and not treat him like an enemy of Macedonia (if he chooses to lead a group of insurgents against Macedonia).

I feel like this is not the RTG i knew here for 2 years. The Risto i knew wouldn't speak as such. Someone else using your account?

[Risto the Great]

I feel like this is not the RTG i knew here for 2 years. The Risto i knew wouldn't speak as such. Someone else using your account?

It goes back to my other question about Muslim sympathies of Turkey towards ethnic Albanians back in 2001. It is not an unreasonable observation Onur. As mentioned a couple of times, I have a vague recollection of some unwelcome sentiment coming from Turkey in 2001.

If that sentiment still exists, then Macedonia will have to look for new friends when the inevitable war occurs. I mean, what would Turkey as an ally do? Try to broker a peace agreement? We have that already and look at Macedonia now ... a basket case!

[George S.]

Yeah Onur it's a fair question what would turkey do when placed at odds & there is a conflict of interest.??Would they just broker a peace deal or just forget the allie bit & pick the sides it wan'ts in.???

[Vangelovski]

George, you're changing your view everytime Onur or RTG post. Maybe you should try and consider the issue more carefully before you commit to a position.

As I've already pointed out a number of times, my view is that Macedonia should maintain interstate relations with all countries, so long as they respect Macedonian freedom and our natural rights. However, I see freedom (based on inalienable natural rights and responsibilities) as the Macedonian cause, and in order to uphold these freedoms and rights, we must uphold them universally. It makes no sense whatsoever to claim them for ourselves and then deny them to others. Further, why should we count as "friends" others who violate these freedoms and rights? How can we trust them? They may tolerate our freedom and rights today, but knowing they do not respect them in general, they could easily turn on us. These are not the types of "friends" that I'm intersted in or that I believe will ever be of real use to Macedonia.

[George S.]

Tom you should keep an open mind as views etc change with the times.Someone said we aren't allies with turkey & we find that we are as macedonia is a sidnatory to a pact with turkey & yes they are allies.
Also freedom represents the recognition that we receive from the collective countries who are likeminded.

[Vangelovski]

Tom you should keep an open mind as views etc change with the times.Someone said we aren't allies with turkey & we find that we are as macedonia is a sidnatory to a pact with turkey & yes they are allies.

George, treaties and pacts really don't mean much. I'll ask you again, if Macedonia and Turkey are such strong "allies", then why didn't Turkey provide any assistance to Macedonia during 2001? I would not class Turkey as anything more than a trading partner with fairly ordinary relations (relative to international standards) in other spheres.

Also freedom represents the recognition that we receive from the collective countries who are likeminded.

I don't understand what you mean here - can you clarify?

[George S.]

i think we better let onur answer your question on allies as to why turkey doesn't get involved in the 2001war.
freedom represents the like mindedness of all the others who share our goals & ideals.It is in stark contrast to countries in totalirian & dictatorships,repression/opression regimes etc.You know tom rtg me and onur about 6.30 am in the morning we got into a discussion whislst it was morning & i was having cup of coffe it dawned on me that we are either an allie or we aint.it turned out that we were.But the $64 dollar question is whether our allie turkey will come to our aid militarily coupled with if it involved the albanians.Would it simply broker for a piece deal or help macedonia. out???We are trying to find that out from onur because that is the crux of the allie deal.Whether they are for real or not.If you can get up that early why not join us ion our merry discussion.

[Vangelovski]

i think we better let onur answer your question on allies as to why turkey doesn't get involved in the wars.
freedom represents the like mindedness of all the others who share our goals & ideals.It is in stark contrast to countries in totalirian 7 dictatorships,repression/opression regimes etc.

I still can't understand what you are trying to say about freedom and how it relates to the topic at hand.

George, I'm interested to know what you think about Turkey not assisting Macedonia in 2001. You were claiming that Turkey would help Macedonia in time of war and obviously it has not. This is one of the reasons you gave as to why we should ignore Turkey's violation of the Kurds' inalienable rights.

[George S.]

Well tom onur might be able to answer that if he can.

[Vangelovski]

Well tom onur might be able to answer that if he can.

George, like I said, I'm interested in YOUR views on this as it was YOU who made the claims.

[George S.]

MY answer would be that if invited & turkey is an allie it should help us if we are fighting
albanians or greeks for that matter.Also we are small & virtually insignifican't we should do the same.But i'd rather ask onur as he knows a lot & he could filling the gaps.My amswer is to the ideal world.We'll let opnur fill in the gaps.My views might be different as the next person.

[George S.]

tom i forgot to ask you what do you think should turkey come to macedonia's aid in a war.Why not?

[Vangelovski]

tom i forgot to ask you what do you think should turkey come to macedonia's aid in a war.Why not?

First of all, I'd like Macedonians to actually defend Macedonia. If any others want to provide assistance, then their welcome to. But Turkey, has NEVER, provided assistance to Macedonia in time of war and I'm not convinced that it ever will.

[George S.]

i would like to see what documents there are about what macedonia has signed.Like you say that turkey has never come to macedonia's aid.I would rather fight our own battles.I'd be intersted in seeing what signatory has macedonia has signed.Tried looking it up nothing.As you say
we don't mind a bit of assistance but what happens in the scenario where we are fighting the albanians or kosovo.Would Turkey help in the fighting then agains't their muslem brothers.
Also i remember reading this is i think at the time of the break up of the yugoslavia.In one article the turks were wanting to build a railway right up & through Macedonia ultimately to transport men & military equipment (tanks)for turkey to help fight in the Bosnian war(to help their muslim brothers)..