Turkish forces liquidated 15 women PKK fighters

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski you say you expect Macedonia to have normal relations with every state, well we don't and we won't because we are not a normal state with normal problems, we have issues with every single neighbour of ours. So when Turkey was one of the first countries to recognise our state and our constitutional name it was a sign of goodwill.

According to your logic, we should have an even better "relationship" with the US - they not only recognise our name and provide Macedonia with large amounts of funding, but they also train our military. Boo hoo.

[Vangelovski]

I agree with Tom 100% in this case, bar the fact that personally, I like Turkey and believe they are somewhat genuine towards Macedonia.

EM, I don't think Turkey has any sinister intentions towards Macedonia either and like I said, I support 'normal' interstate relations with every state as long as they respect our inalienable natural rights (which according to George are a figment of our imagination, a notion that I've only seen the UMD and Macedonian politicians support).

What George can't seem to understand, either conceptually or because of his blind allegiance to Turkey (or maybe just Onur), is that a 'normal' relationship does not mean you turn a blind eye to something wrong, as you yourself mention in one of your posts.

There can be no closer relationship than that between a husband and wife or parent and child, but when one does something wrong, it is the obligation of the other to point it out and not simply ignore it. In this case, George is attempting to turn a blind eye to the fact that Turkey is simply the aggressor in Kurdistan because he falsely believes Turkey is of some sort of extraordinary strategic benefit to Macedonia (mind you, they were silent in 2001 and have funded the development of mosques in Macedonia) and he is disingenuously claiming that legitimate criticism of Turkey is racist - much like those who claim that legitimate criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.

What I'm most disappointed about George is that he has been here for quite some time and he still does not understand that the Macedonian cause is about our FREEDOM and our RIGHTS (which he calls a 'figment of the imagination'), not about opening embassies, abolishing visa's and all that other peripheral nonsense. He likes to quote Delcev every now and then, but its become obvious that he does not know what he's quoting or why.

[George S.]

Hey tom take a powder you are making this shit as you go.For a start i never said any of the things about kurds.I don't know what rights they are missing or what.All i know is about macedonia.It's better for macedonia to have friendly relations.A friend in need is a friend in deed.You are deliberating omitting & misquoting me.What all those years at the UMD stifle the old brain.Listen i just said it was a good thing & good for the Macedonian cause.You carry on as if you are a house on fire & just blow it all out of proportion from me saying about rights,i meant albanian rights are just made up ones just to start a war or conflict.So you go attributing it to macedonians kurds turks.It wasn't that at all not at macedonians.THe macedonians yes have rights & not just fighting for freedom.THere are a lot of things we need to fight about.Also i never quoted goce delcev at all.I don't need to this is 2012.We should live in the present & future & not the past.So tom don't misquote me & don't jump the gun.You are misrepresenting me & trying to ridicule me.
Tom you are bs here mate stop misrepresenting me here" George is attempting to turn a blind eye to the fact that Turkey is simply the aggressor in Kurdistan because he falsely believes Turkey"Look at what you are saying from a simple comment about macedonia being friendly with turkey to rights you didn't bother to check you just jumped the gun & made up a bs story.Tom this isn't the first time you have misrepresented people perhaps
you done it more times perhaps at the UMD where the bs was spread around.Don't forget you are at the MTO now.Some of us used to be"friends"with you supposedly.
This is not the first time you have hiccuped that many times you have failed to be persuaded in your attitude that you are overeacting & misrepresenting people.I have seen it first hand mate fellow mto members have to put up with your bs,you go on as id you have done no wrong.This was a good thread & you have derailed it with your usual drivel & bs i think trying to deliberately bring people down.Remember this is not the first time you done this.I have lot's of examples.Lots. of your misbehavior.So tom you should grow up for a change.

[Vangelovski]

George, does any of this ring a bell? You were referring to all rights in relation to all people:

I see a lot of people here talking about rights .What rights does anyone have it's called a figment of imagination why because it materialises one way or another to land grabs for someone be it albanians or kurds who want their own state.

[George S.]

Tom that was talking about macedonians & albanians.Yes it's the albanians who are making their so called rghts as they go do you get it they just want a conflict to lead to destabilisation to secession.I didn't talk of unversal rights of macedonians you have misquoted me.THe albanians allways make up some sort of pretext about macedonians not giving them rights. do you get it now.What i was trying to say it's not about real rights but a land grab.I was just saying these people in general i'm not racist but i said that all they want is some excuse to take our land.Lets face it i don't know anything about the status of the kurds you might have seen me asking onur questions.I was making a general statement not about turks rights or kurds because i don't know of any? but in general of albanian rights?? how they are made up that we aren't fullfilling their rights so they could cause conflict.I did ask onur a few times to elaborate as to wha its all about.NOw i could no say that about the kurds what i said i don't like terrorism but i don't know what rights they are missing that's why i asked onur.I don't know much about the rights of kurds all i know is the albanians are ripping us off.At the end i said that they are allways trying to get the land eg albanians maybe the kurds are the same?????

[Vangelovski]

No George, you are clearly talking about rights in general and how they relate to all people. You may have given a specific example at the end, but your words are quite clear. Nearly all your posts on this thread are littered with the idea that natural rights are BS. This is now a flop to your flip.

[George S.]

Tom you couldn't really relate it to all people as i said i had it in mind for the albanians only.I don't think you could have a blanket approach as the situation of kurds to albanians is not the same.I think someone did mention it..All iwas saying people just assume that they have natral rights affected use that like pretext to claim on destabilising a country.eg albanians in macedonia..Also me saying it's good to have friendly relations was mean't to be in a good way.If it's all too easy then why don't other countries recognize us.??
Anyway this thread has gotten off the rails like people discussing all sorts of things.
You know what i realise now us all arguing for or agains't turkey & macedonia isn't going to change anything because i wonder why i got into it in the first place??We are discussing it in a general way & we don't know everything in the end.What do you think is it healthy to have these kind of discussions???
As i said why would i ask onur a few time if i knew about the turk /kurds situation.I 'll asmit that i didn't approve of terrorism use of to get one's way.SO it's not about every human right on the planet.A few times peole asked me what i mean't i wrote back about that it was the albanians.

[fatso]

The real question here is; "What is your obsession with Turkey, Vangelovski?".

Did you forget that whole EU calls you as FYROM, as well as your homeland Australia? If this is not a norm, then campaign in Australia rather than questioning Turkey`s role just because of your false ideas. Lets assume what you say is true and Turkey is neutral against Macedonia. That would be considered as big plus too because nearly all the Macedonia`s neighbors are hostile. Most of them deny your identity, one vetoes you in every international organization and the other trying to lure your people by calling them as Bulgarians in denial. At least Turkey doesn't do neither of those.

But it`s pointless to remind these facts to you because it`s you who has obsessions towards Turkey.

You are correct in that respect Onur. But, is Turkey's freindship with Macedonia Genuine or is it because of its not so great relationship with Greece.

It's no different from the Kurds and the Greeks ...bullshit politics.

[George S.]

Tom re albanian rights,
post 135 well they are from the albanian side they beleive they didn't get certain rights so they have to start a war but the real reason is to destabilise a country ripe for a takeover.We are

[Onur]

You are correct in that respect Onur. But, is Turkey's freindship with Macedonia Genuine or is it because of its not so great relationship with Greece.

It's no different from the Kurds and the Greeks ...bullshit politics.

I don't think so because Macedonia cannot help Turkey for anything about our problems with Greece. Also, Turkey doesn't need allies vs Greece unlike you. We can always deal with you alone.

Maybe you would have been in same position as we are towards Macedonia [i mean, having friendly relations] but you assimilated Macedonians in your country and you indoctrinated them to despise their kinsmen while denying their identity.

[Big Bad Sven]

Sven,

You have challenged me before with your hypothetical questions. The reason I sit idle on responding to you is because it doesn't apply to me.

My problem is only with Onur, because I believe he is not sincere. If muslim Albanians took over Tetovo , your friend would have a grin on his face. I can assure you of that.
I believe Turkey's friendship with Macedonia is bullshit politics. No different from Greece supporting the Kurds. I have been kicked off Greek forums because I challenged Greeks and their sincerity to a Kurdistan nation. Their friendship is no different from Macedonias and Turkey's.
Think of who supported you in your last conflict with Albanian militants.

Not Turkey.

I appreciate your honest answer, and i appreciate you being honest about the kurdish-greek "friendship"

I (sort of) agree with you about the albanian thing. However i dont think Turkey would support the albanians outright, more so they would probably be "neutral" and not support any side, but they would be more then happy to support the albanians if they won the conflict.
Macedonia unfortunately has no friends in politics, only one good ally and that is Turkey.

But you cannot exclude Turkey on this, im sure Russia would always support the macedonians against the shiptars and bulgarians, but will always take the serbian or greek side over macedonia. Unfortunately macedonia has no real friend in politics, and is not so important as the other balkan nations. It is not a priority.

However i think there is more respect and in some ways comradeship between Turkey-Macedonia then Greece-Kurdistan. I feel that the efforts between the macedonian government and Turkish government is long term, while the relation between greece and kurds is only short term.

In regards to you last comment, well i do remember who supported macedonia in 2001 and it was only Ukraine. I get the impression that you are trying to make it out that greece was so concerned about macedonia, which was not the case.
I still remember reading articles about griks saying that macedonians deserved everything they got in 2001, and still have memories of ali ahmet going on hot dates with lady Dora.

[Big Bad Sven]

I find it strange that some of you are undermining our friendship with Turkey. Who cares if they are being extra 'nice' to us because of ours and their differences with Greece. Fact is we have never had a problem with Turkey politically they have always been our allies when it comes to our name, for NATO, economically Turkish companies are always looking to invest in Macedonia I mean just look at what they did to our airport in Skopje.

Vangelovski you say you expect Macedonia to have normal relations with every state, well we don't and we won't because we are not a normal state with normal problems, we have issues with every single neighbour of ours. So when Turkey was one of the first countries to recognise our state and our constitutional name it was a sign of goodwill.

Tell me simply out of Germany, France, Belgium and Turkey who is the closer ally here? You say the absolute minimum requritement for any state is to abide by basic fundamental standards which includes recognising our name, so if Turkey is at its absolute minimum what can we say about the others?

I think with Turkey being one of the top 10 economies in the world, being the "balkan powerhouse" and already having extremely good ties with macedonia - that macedonia should stick very close to Turkey.

Plus they carry a big stick, and im sure it makes countries like Bulgaria and greece sleep with one eye open. They would probably never use the stick, but it keeps the wankers in line.

[fatso]

I don't think so because Macedonia cannot help Turkey for anything about our problems with Greece. Also, Turkey doesn't need allies vs Greece unlike you. We can always deal with you alone.

Maybe you would have been in same position as we are towards Macedonia [i mean, having friendly relations] but you assimilated Macedonians in your country and you indoctrinated them to despise their kinsmen while denying their identity.

And here is where the problem lies . You keep referring me and Greece as you. I know about Greece's assimilation of Macedonians. I won't deny that unlike yourself who denies everything.

I told you before you are a hypocrite.

[George S.]

i fully agree on the albanians,Macedonia should stick with turkey. bbs

[Risto the Great]

I find it strange that some of you are undermining our friendship with Turkey. Who cares if they are being extra 'nice' to us because of ours and their differences with Greece. Fact is we have never had a problem with Turkey politically they have always been our allies when it comes to our name, for NATO, economically Turkish companies are always looking to invest in Macedonia I mean just look at what they did to our airport in Skopje.

Vangelovski you say you expect Macedonia to have normal relations with every state, well we don't and we won't because we are not a normal state with normal problems, we have issues with every single neighbour of ours. So when Turkey was one of the first countries to recognise our state and our constitutional name it was a sign of goodwill.

Tell me simply out of Germany, France, Belgium and Turkey who is the closer ally here? You say the absolute minimum requritement for any state is to abide by basic fundamental standards which includes recognising our name, so if Turkey is at its absolute minimum what can we say about the others?

Turkey is not Macedonia's ally.

Here is a definition:
A state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose, typically by treaty.

Even if Turkey was an ally with the present leadership of Macedonia, then (since the present leadership is anti-Macedonian) Turkey would also be an enemy of Macedonians.

My interpretation of Turkey is that it feels it can create a sphere of influence in the Balkan region. Turks are received well in the region and I am sure they would love to thumb their noses at the EU whilst securing their own interests in the region.

But let us not get carried away with this.

http://www.stat.gov.mk/Publikacii/3.4.9.01.pdf

Shows that (as at 2007) Austria and Slovenia were far more significant investors in Macedonia. (Austria had invested about 6000% more than Turkey). Where are all the feel good comments about Austria? Seriously? I have never heard anyone say anything nice about Austria in relation to Macedonia.

Turkey did absolutely nothing to help Macedonians in 2001. In fact, I have vague recollections of Muslim sympathies being directed towards the ethnic Albanians at the time.

I like Turks, I like Onur .... I like people generally. But I think Macedonians should think about what life might be like if they were an empowered race. I have no idea what it will take to change the way many Macedonians think. Just because someone calls me a "Macedonian" does not mean they should be treated extra nice by me. It is the minimum I would expect if I acknowledge them for what they are. I'm not going to get emotional with warm fuzzy feelings if anyone calls me Macedonian. I'll let facts and actions speak for themselves.

I would welcome Turks and Greeks in my house if they were civil and were interested in fruitful dialogue or endeavours. I won't blindly assume all are bad or good.