Macedonia: Patriots, Traitors, Enemies and the Ignorant

[Pelister]

If they are ignorant, the best way to change that is to inform them. They need to know what the Interim Accord really means for us, and what the E.U really means for us.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You are not going to move forward by creating an imaginary figure of who is ignorant and who is a traitor.......

It is more like a gap analysis to help identify areas that are lacking, before we move forward.

I am aware that the original figures you gave were merely a template.........

If you were aware you wouldn't have made your irrelevant comment in the first place. No point in trying to save face now.

I am disturbed by the fact that you think by labelling people as 'Traitors' and 'Ignorant' you believe that you will be able to spread your message to them.

You are disturbed, I will give you that much. Back to the thread though, you don't seem to have a grasp of its purpose, and you are beginning to misconstrue my intention as a result of your simplistic approach.

If I was to label you as an Ignoramus (I know you are not), would you then listen to what I have to say and follow my advice?

Don't insert new terminology. I am not referring to those labelled 'ignorant' as ignorant people or even ignorant per se, much less as ignoramus'. In the past, I too have been ignorant about certain matters - I didn't want to accept that I was ignorant about those matters initially, but I am happy that this was highlighted to me and about the subsequent discussions that took place as I am all the better for it.

Who am I to cast a judgement on people that I don't even know/have no idea about?

You saw all of the SDS supporters that carry Serbian flags and support a political party that is prepared to cave in completely on our identity. For the purpose of this discussion, they could be labelled ignorant, enemies of the state (if they aren't ethnic Macedonians) or traitors. You may consider yourself as a nobody, but I am a Macedonian, and I have a right to make this judgement based on the actions of other Macedonians, because I care about my heritage and will not shy away from my convictions for the sake of being sensitive towards traitors, or those that don't know any better.

Here is a first step, why not make sure that those people around us are aware of what the Macedonian cause is and how it is beneficial to Macedonia/the Macedonian people. Let's face it, if we cannot convince our own families and friends, then what chance to we have of convincing people at a wider level.

Is this another armchair critique, or are you actually going to come up with an idea this time?

If 20% of Macedonians are ignoramuses (or more as many people here are saying), then surely we must know many of them. Is what makes them "ignorant" really a sing of ignorance?, or is it a sign of lack of interest? That is why the whole notion of categorising people into artificial classifications is little more than pseudo-scientific nonsense.

If they have no interest in the topic, then they probably are ignorant. The categories are general and not specific, and they relate only to one topic.

[Bill77]

In the past, I too have been ignorant about certain matters - I didn't want to accept that I was ignorant about those matters initially, but I am happy that this was highlighted to me and about the subsequent discussions that took place as I am all the better for it.

Dito mate.
And i am sure i would need some further slapping across the face in future.
I'd rather be slapped across the face and proven wrong than to remain ignorant.

[Jankovska]

It's a very interestig topic I must say. We have all kinds but I bet you you get more ignorant people in the UK than in Macedonia. I have faith in my people, I would give at least 70% hardcore patriots the rest I don't really care about, ignorant, stupid, uneducated, minortities, to me all those are traitors. In the 30% I put all the siptari, VMRO, SDSM and the few ajduci i grci guzici. If there were only 20% patriots Macedonia would not exist now. They still proudly carry the name and they would always fight for it. We need to all have faith in them.
I don't consider myself a patriot, why should I. Yes I firmly stand behind my country, my name, my family and I sit and drobim all day long about it but I don't live there, I didn't have my children there, I don't bring to the country, I don't put anything into it. But we need to also define a patriot? I have been called a traitor more times than a patriot, coz I am hardcore, vzestena glava, non diplomatic and I don't care about politics. I see myself as a firm suporter and I love Macedonia. But in my opinion the true patriots are the boys and girls that fought in 2001, my gran, your grandparents, the ones who voted to seperate from Jugoslavija, the children and future of Macedonia and there is MANY of them. I have faith and I will never lose it because Makedonecot e kako Pirej, no matter how hard you try to destroy it it always comes back. There are many patriots, all Macedonia needs is a leader.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There are many patriots, all Macedonia needs is a leader.

Well said chupe, I agree with the above completely.

[indigen]

Originally Posted by Jankovska
There are many patriots, all Macedonia needs is a leader.

Well said chupe, I agree with the above completely.

Emiliano Zapata: "A strong people does not need a strong leader."

[Makedonska_Kafana]

I think it safe to say there is no government in Macedonia that fully respects the wishes of the citizens or the Macedonian diaspora. Now, we have the lessor of evils until they sit on the other side of the table.

ALL GAME$ & ALL PRO NEW WORLD ORDER

[Phoenix]

There are many patriots, all Macedonia needs is a leader.

Absolutely, 100% correct...

Macedonia has a rich albeit violent history when the people get behind a true leader, there's no doubt that the people have the 'right stuff' but we need the charismatic leaders that defined and shaped our greatest struggles.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Emiliano Zapata: "A strong people does not need a strong leader."

In more ideal circumstances, perhaps. But ours aren't ideal. The ancient Macedonians were also a strong people, they still needed a strong leader to achieve the objectives that they did. In the quote above, the term 'strong' seems a little ambiguous. Are you implying that we are a strong people at the moment? What do you mean by 'strong'?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Phoenix, Macedonia is controlled by outside sources so it doesn't matter who the leaders are because they must follow instructions.

[Soldier of Macedon]

But if it was a strong leader that resisted the encroachment of external parties in Macedonian affairs, it would be a markedly better situation than the one we're in at the moment.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is an American nonprofit nonpartisan membership organization, publisher, and thinktank specializing in U.S. foreign policy and international affairs from an interventionist perspective.

You must be a Mason like Soros, Clintons etc. (this started wikileaks)

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, Macedonia is controlled by outside sources so it doesn't matter who the leaders are because they must follow instructions.

Would a strong leader allow such influence...?

I would argue that our leaders are weak, hence easily influenced by stronger outside forces...

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Would a strong leader allow such influence...?

They would be killed on the spot, CIA aka Mafia. Gligorov was a different case because those people were not CIA who wanted him dead.

[indigen]

In more ideal circumstances, perhaps. But ours aren't ideal. The ancient Macedonians were also a strong people, they still needed a strong leader to achieve the objectives that they did. In the quote above, the term 'strong' seems a little ambiguous. Are you implying that we are a strong people at the moment? What do you mean by 'strong'?

It is a message from a Mexican revolutionary to his people that they should be strong (spiritually, politically (organised) and ideologically - freedom loving) and NOT rely on (or look for) a STRONG LEADER.

Emiliano Zapata:

"A strong people does not need a strong leader."

“I would rather die standing up, than live life on my knees.”

“Men of the South! It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees”

A bit of history on Zapata at following link: http://www.answers.com/topic/emiliano-zapata

We paid the price only recently by relying on a "strong" leader like LjuBcho Georgiveski and look at the outcome from that!