Macedonia: Patriots, Traitors, Enemies and the Ignorant

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    #46
    Originally posted by Frank
    All this Internet Warrior crap really is just that just nothing but wasted time, we deflate get things out then return for more of it.
    Another useless rant about somebody trying to present his personal predicament as that of all the members here. Just because you're a waste of time, it doesn't mean the rest of us are.
    Ever tried to sit down with our brothers they will tell you you cant speak Macedonian very well.......
    You probably can't. I generally find that no matter where you are the locals will judge you on your character and not how well you can speak the local language. If you display this sort of behaviour here one can only imagine how you are in person. Think about that.
    ........and you shouldn't tell us how to live and not one asks for advice and experience from a different perceptive.
    Have you had difficulties interacting with every single Macedonian in Macedonia you've met? Perhaps you should work on your approach.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Prolet
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2009
      • 5241

      #47
      I asked you before: Would Putin continue negotiating the name of his state just because the guy before him set the precedent?
      Thats a hypothetical question and Russia is too big of a superpower for anybody to even consider asking it. He made things right in Chechnya, the reason we are in this mess is because the previous Governments including Ljubco's Government never lobbied in EU and North America like this government has. My answer to your question is no, however its different when you are Russia, you have nuclear weapons and if you turn the gas off over half of the EU will Freeze to Death. We are viewed in the diplomatic world as history thieves and a country made up by Tito, the Greek Government spent hundreds of millions of dollars back in the 90s to keep us in the dark for so many years. So my point was Russia got their first true leader and so has Macedonia with Nikola Gruevski.

      You remember when Sestra Ljube came to Australia in 2002 a few months before the election, who did he meet with in Australia? He didnt even meet the Premier of Victoria and he was the head of the Interior in Macedonia, he came to a few baloj, had a chat with people then went home.

      I havnt seen or heard Premier Gruevski say anything about giving up our name, I have been critical on the way he's handling the issue but the fact that he said on the Milenko Nedelkovski show that he wont rule out leaving the negotiations is a positive sign and its clear that our Delegation is starting to run out of patience and are getting sick and tired of being blackmailed by the Greek side.
      МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

      Comment

      • Phoenix
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 4671

        #48
        Originally posted by Prolet View Post
        We are viewed in the diplomatic world as history thieves and a country made up by Tito, the Greek Government spent hundreds of millions of dollars back in the 90s to keep us in the dark for so many years. So my point was Russia got their first true leader and so has Macedonia with Nikola Gruevski.
        I'm a bit disappointed with your attitude Prolet, you sound like you've been influenced by the propaganda of our enemies, do you really believe that is the "diplomatic worlds" view of Macedonia..Prolet do you really think that 'greek' diplomats use those arguments...?

        I've always imagined that to be the argument of the easily manipulated, those that freely swallow the glory of the 'hellenic' legacy, not the diplomats.





        Originally posted by Prolet View Post
        I havnt seen or heard Premier Gruevski say anything about giving up our name, .
        Don't worry about what you hear Prolet, concern yourself with what you haven't heard yet...

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          #49
          Reality will hit home when those entrusted will have done the dirty deed>But in the meantime we are just guessing.We''l soon know who are our traitors & patriots ,we only know of some at present.We are just waiting for the unthinkable to happen it's like a gun pointed & fired & fate is determined that way.We are playing a waiting game.Most macedonians are ignorant of what's going on but there seems to be a certain powerlessness to do about something.They need to be stronger in their expression like no means no.Also the politicians seem to not to heed the public feelings about things.If a majority of the macedonian poulation does not want a name change or no discussions well some politicians dont care to listen.We''ll all know eventually what's to happen.I think then whee'll know who are traitors & patriots are.
          Last edited by George S.; 12-17-2010, 04:23 AM. Reason: edit
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Mikail
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1338

            #50
            Nice thread SOM. Discussions like these sure can bring out the best in some members!

            Spend some time in RoMacedonia and one will find they are patriotic! They want to have the same civil freedoms the rest of us have. Many are doing quite well in Macedonia right now. Financially they are better off than they were 10 years ago.

            Go to Northern Greece ( so called for Franks benefit) and you will also find Macedonian patriots. They want to keep their perceived civil freedoms yet they can move about quite freely. Financially our brothers south of the border aren't doing so well financially due to Greece's economic melt down.

            And can we use the term "vassal" within context and not make up our own meanings please.
            From the village of P’pezhani, Tashko Popov, Dimitar Popov-Skenderov and Todor Trpenov were beaten and sentenced to 12 years prison. Pavle Mevchev and Atanas Popov from Vrbeni and Boreshnica joined them in early 1927, they were soon after transferred to Kozhani and executed. As they were leaving Lerin they were heard to shout "With our death, Macedonia will not be lost. Our blood will run, but other Macedonians will rise from it"

            Comment

            • fyrOM
              Banned
              • Feb 2010
              • 2180

              #51
              In most oath there’s a bit about defending the republic from all external and internal enemies. If you can say that in all honesty then you are a patriot…its that simple. Any member of any ethic minority able to say the same in all honesty is a patriot of the Republic. For ethnic Macedonians it is one level higher.

              Feeling demoralised as many Macedonians do by the currant state of events does not necessarily make them unpatriotic.

              Crvenkovki is just the devil and those following him are true devils or deluded individuals deceived by the devil but in any event I doubt a dagger stab in your hart would feel any different if it was done by a true devil or deluded individual…their action tarnish them the same.

              Comment

              • Prolet
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2009
                • 5241

                #52
                Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                I'm a bit disappointed with your attitude Prolet, you sound like you've been influenced by the propaganda of our enemies, do you really believe that is the "diplomatic worlds" view of Macedonia..Prolet do you really think that 'greek' diplomats use those arguments...?

                I've always imagined that to be the argument of the easily manipulated, those that freely swallow the glory of the 'hellenic' legacy, not the diplomats.
                Phoenix, Im talking about the Early 90s where our diplomacy failed us entirely, now its much better and you and i both know the truth but do you know why things are changing?? Because Gruevski is in Brussels every 3rd day, he visits countries all around Europe fighting the diplomatic battle against Greece. He's in Brussels now as we speak at a European Party Summit, its the stuff we dont see that makes the biggest difference. He works very hard, he tries very hard and he's doing his very best which is not always good enough.

                Don't worry about what you hear Prolet, concern yourself with what you haven't heard yet...
                We shouldnt know what goes on behind closed doors the fact that the Greek delegation is showing signs of frustration is evidence enough that our side is not budging. Gruevski has held 8 meetings with Papandreu and in each of his press conferences he's never even looked like he was giving in to Greek demands, until i see some solid evidence that he is going to change our name then he is not a traitor in my books.
                МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                Comment

                • Mastika
                  Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 503

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                  the Macedonians are no different to most other people when they feel that somebody is trying to 'educate' them or tell them how to live their lives
                  This is the issue at hand here. How is a group from the diaspora going to convey their message to those living in Macedonia. Imho, once the method through which the message can be delivered is established, it will be received quickly and widely. I would rather see people on the forum discuss how best to communicate with those living in Macedonia rather than speculating on how many Macedonians are "Patriots, Traitors, Enemies and the Ignorant". The fact that such a thread even exists is quite concerning, there is no need to speculate on "What percentage of people are 'Ignorant' " etc., as there is no benefit in creating such a figure.

                  SoM the percentages that you have given imho are quite divisive and is an example of gross generalisation (the same extent of generalisation which was being discussed on another thread, and the negative consequences of such a generalisation).

                  I personally wouldn't be suprised if people in Macedonia stumble across this thread and laugh at it. It's absurdity is unparralled (the core focus, the ideas which people are getting across are generally good).

                  Why not have a thread "How best to spread the message of the MTO throughout Macedonia and the Diaspora"? It would be much more benefical.

                  The fact that many people are generally calling Macedonians (in Mk and the diaspora) 'ignorant' and making broad statements that the country is not a republic and that the people are made to feel like slaves, certainly do not help the cause. (Had some of the statements come from non-Macedonians then they would have surely been banned by now).

                  I think that more credit needs to be given to the Macedonians living in Macedonia (yes they aren't perfect, and have their flaws, but so do we in the diaspora, and we too aren't perfect). Surely we dont have to 'educate' them, the situation really isnt that bad. Yes, i too get pissed of when I hear about the situation with the Albanians, but I live in Australia and this is where my immediate family are, my first concern is here not Macedonia. Is this being ignorant? No, it is putting concern where it is due. Most Macedonians in Maso do the same, they put their family above Macedonian nationalism. Can we blame them? No, it is their prerogative, their children and grandchildren (not mine) will become the caretakers of Macedonia in the future, and they will be carrying the Macedonian torch. Am I going to call them ignorant because they put their family above Macedonia, no, of course not. I'm not some Vojvoda fighting a crusade, and neither are they, they are simply doing what they can to better the situation for their children (let's face it thats the reason why we are here today, outside of Macedonia too.)

                  Vangelovski, RtG and others of similar beliefs on this 'ignorance/vassals/slave mentality issue'; Yes, you do hold the moral and theoretical high ground. Your beliefs are good, they are pro-Macedonian, however there is a practical element which is lacking in your ideology. Without the beliefs having strong practical relevance, there is little practical application which can be achieved from such beliefs.

                  So, rather than speculating on who is a traitor and what percentage of people are vassals, etc. why not focus on how to spread the message on which the MTO is based. You will find that most Macedonians (even the so-called ignorant) also believe in the points set out by the Macedonian cause charter.

                  How will the message be conveyed?, this is what I want to hear about, not divisive generalisations.

                  Comment

                  • Daskalot
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 4345

                    #54
                    Mastika, thank you for your input. Why make things negative when you can make them positive. We need to interlock all Macedonians all over the world under one common cause, and that is the Macedonian Cause as per defined by the MTO members. We have only one Macedonia.
                    Macedonian Truth Organisation

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15660

                      #55
                      Mastike, a reasoned response.
                      I too don't like the "compartmentalising" of Macedonians in this manner. However, before we can work on a message to Macedonians, we need to be sure who our target market is. Why waste valuable resources trying to convince the already convinced? Some here barely want to concede there is a cancer in Macedonian society. Others will admit it but choose not to speculate about the extent. Others simply say "most of them".

                      For this reason, SoM has framed a very blunt question that, if honestly answered, would be invaluable in constructing a strategy to help Macedonia. You see, we are not ready for a strategy if we do not know anything about our target market. Marketing 101. Consider this the business plan phase.

                      I will embrace your suggestion about taking the "higher moral ground". I will then up the stakes and suggest that if all of Macedonia took the same stance, we would discussing more mundane matters right now.
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15660

                        #56
                        I will also add that if Macedonia puts this terrible period behind it and regains its sovereignty. EVERYONE will be saying they were ALWAYS agreeing with the Vangelovskis of this world. And they will laugh (nervously) at some of the discussions on the matter here on this forum.

                        Why do I say this? I say this the same way we have re-born Macedonians who now realise there is no point being "pretend Serbs" anymore after the break-up of former Yugoslavia. Nothing to be proud of, just human nature.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15660

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                          Mastika, thank you for your input. Why make things negative when you can make them positive. We need to interlock all Macedonians all over the world under one common cause, and that is the Macedonian Cause as per defined by the MTO members. We have only one Macedonia.
                          Daskalot, what do we do with the ones who are actively fighting against the Macedonian Cause?
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8534

                            #58
                            Mastika,

                            Your actions need to be led by your beliefs, not the other way round. One cannot say that Macedonian freedom is a good idea but not practical. That just betrays their actual views on the matter and has nothing to do with practical actions that can be undertaken.

                            Further, what's this business about nationalism with the negative connotation? I can confidently say that barely anyone on this forum actually understand what nationalism is. People in Macedonia, if they really cared about their families, would be struggling to maintain their individual and collective freedom because of what that entails.

                            Some people on here seem to think that freedom is some nostalgic notion of standing on a mountain top with the wind in their hair, waving a flag. No, that belief is an indication that their thoughts are guided by the direction of the wind as it blows through their brain.

                            Freedom is a very real and tangible issue. Its about the ability to make your own choices and live the life that you choose, on both an individual and collective level. People in the West seem to take it for granted and then argue that it is not a priority for Macedonians in Macedonia. Wait until YOU lose YOUR freedom and then we will see what level of priority it holds in your life.

                            On a final note, Macedonia IS NOT a republic, as it claims or as its "constitutional name" states. In a repubic, the Government is contrained by the constitution and not the other way around. Have a think about what that means.
                            Last edited by Vangelovski; 12-17-2010, 06:46 PM.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • Bill77
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2009
                              • 4545

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Mastika View Post
                              [SIZE="4"]

                              Most Macedonians in Maso do the same, they put their family above Macedonian nationalism. Can we blame them? No, it is their prerogative, their children and grandchildren (not mine) will become the caretakers of Macedonia in the future, and they will be carrying the Macedonian torch. Am I going to call them ignorant because they put their family above Macedonia, no, of course not. I'm not some Vojvoda fighting a crusade, and neither are they, they are simply doing what they can to better the situation for their children (let's face it thats the reason why we are here today, outside of Macedonia too.)
                              Though i would agree with most of what you say in that rather large post, i must pull you up on this point.

                              I would say fighting against oppression, is putting your family ahead of what you call "Nationalism". Its their families of today and future generations, freedom and rights that are at stake here.

                              Unless you are scared of getting clubbed over the head by police or doing time for demonstrating, then you are "selfish" and don't give a shit about your Family.
                              http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                              Comment

                              • Frank
                                Banned
                                • Mar 2010
                                • 687

                                #60
                                I spent 6 months in Macedonia I meet people from consular reps, NGOs, the home grown few business success stories and everyday people across the Country.
                                and allot of filth on the side too. And yes some Patriots all with differing views, but patriots never the less.

                                Importantly what I didn't see allot was civil movements bar 2 in in Skopje working hard to further Macedonian national Interests without the coaching of a USAID check

                                No sign of a fair right Political Minor either I bet everyone would be cheering here if there was one I would be

                                Something substantial is needed a revolution, sorry a shitty Forum space only gives you a avenue to speak to a select few without really being seen and heard if you all know what I mean

                                Someone who is prepared to burn a few bridges and kill individuals who shouldn’t be walking will be moving us in a different direction
                                this will shock the Macedonian public from the their contemplative slumber

                                When I was in Bitola I meet a Croatian Austrian (not Australian) who came back from Zagreb he had similar experience I had but he noted the difference in Croatia was there was a substantial movement and home grown that is emerging but not in his observations in Macedonia

                                Again when i say Macedonians are ignorant and lazy yes it is a swipe but largely true

                                Now do I assume that of all off course not, so please to the select few who have swiped me like a brush THINK

                                If anyone of you meet me you will see I am quietly spoken and do more listening then talking I just don't have a public face
                                Last edited by Frank; 12-17-2010, 10:24 PM.

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