Macedonia: Patriots, Traitors, Enemies and the Ignorant

[Risto the Great]

But if it was a strong leader that resisted the encroachment of external parties in Macedonian affairs, it would be a markedly better situation than the one we're in at the moment.

Would a strong leader allow such influence...?

Leaders of Macedonia are simply pawns to the likes of the USA. Unless the USA etc. can accurately gauge the sentiment of the Macedonian people, they will continue to influence the leaders. If the Macedonian people draw the line in the sand on some issues, the USA etc. will know where the "no go" policy zones are.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Leaders of Macedonia are simply PAWNS to the likes of the USA. Unless the USA etc. can accurately gauge the sentiment of the Macedonian people, they will continue to influence the leaders. If the Macedonian people draw the line in the sand on some issues, the USA etc. will know where the "no go" policy zones are.

Bingo, 100% correct - all front men

[Phoenix]

I think that there's a very long history of strong leadership motivating the masses...whether that movement is generated from the ground-up or from the top down is academic, the movement still needs a charismatic head to lead it...

As it is now we have neither at any obvious level...

[Soldier of Macedon]

We paid the price only recently by relying on a "strong" leader like LjuBcho Georgiveski and look at the outcome from that!

There is a difference with him, as he wasn't ideologically sound. This is why I said your quote is ambiguous, as it is open to interpretation. I don't see many negatives in having a strong, ideologically sound, leader. Do you?

Leaders of Macedonia are simply pawns to the likes of the USA. Unless the USA etc. can accurately gauge the sentiment of the Macedonian people, they will continue to influence the leaders. If the Macedonian people draw the line in the sand on some issues, the USA etc. will know where the "no go" policy zones are.

Pawns they may be, but that is because they are weak, and not strong. Macedonians, like all other people, need somebody to lead in such affairs, we aren't going to achieve anything using an incohesive 'Palestinian' -style approach without solid leadership and direction.

[Vangelovski]

I think one of the problems is 'strong' leadership, particularly when that leadership is leading the Macedonian people to where we are at now. I would like to see a lot more critical thinking individual Macedonians, which is really the only remedy for the slave mentality and vassal politicians (i.e., strong leaders) taking advantage of it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Who are the strong leaders Vangelovski? What you and Indigen are talking about has more to do with ideology than strength. I am all for free-thinking and criticism, but are you suggesting it is better to have a weak leader (at the risk of caving in to foreign interests)?

[Risto the Great]

Pawns they may be, but that is because they are weak, and not strong. Macedonians, like all other people, need somebody to lead in such affairs, we aren't going to achieve anything using an incohesive 'Palestinian' -style approach without solid leadership and direction.

I think a little country will always have vulnerable leaders. No matter how strong they are. A little country with a singular vision from its people will be much harder to control externally though.

Perfect world: Strong leader + Strong people

[Soldier of Macedon]

But to obtain that singular vision collectively, many of our people need to be led by example and direction so they can realise the true benefit of such an unifying act. They aren't going to wake up themselves, hence, strong leadership will always be essential. Better for a Macedonian leader to work for the interests of his country rather than those of others, to keep his country's integrity rather than walk around at international conferences with a sticker that says "FYR Macedonia", like Gruevski has in the past.

[Vangelovski]

Who are the strong leaders Vangelovski? What you and Indigen are talking about has more to do with ideology than strength. I am all for free-thinking and criticism, but are you suggesting it is better to have a weak leader (at the risk of caving in to foreign interests)?

SoM,

I haven't read what Indigen wrote so I won't comment on his posts.

Firstly, by 'strong leader' I mean someone who sticks to their convictions and is able to influence those around them to follow. You can get 'strong leaders' who are not necessarily good for the cause.

I don't see how any leader, strong or weak, can cave in to foreign interests when you have a free and critical thinking citizenry? Seeing as sovereignty lies with the body of citizens, a critical thinking citizenry would exercise that sovereignty and dispose of any "leader" that seeks to undermine their sovereignty and/or collective interests.

I think you are confusing the concept of citizenry (and all that it entails) with the subjects (and all that it entails) we have today that are led by the nose or are too apathetic to protect their own natural and political rights.

[Makedonetz]

What leaders has macedonia had in the past who was for the interest of the people? We have been pulled by both arms and both legs are their people in the shadows who would make a good strong leader for Macedonia?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Firstly, by 'strong leader' I mean someone who sticks to their convictions and is able to influence those around them to follow. You can get 'strong leaders' who are not necessarily good for the cause.

I know, that is why I said that they also need to be ideologically sound.

I don't see how any leader, strong or weak, can cave in to foreign interests when you have a free and critical thinking citizenry?

I do, because the people aren't at the negotiating table, the leaders are. And even if the citizenry were to make a stand against decisions that impact them negatively, the action will still need to be led, because you won't get thousands of Macedonians waking up on a particular day and thinking the same thing. As I said before, leadership is essential.

I think you are confusing the concept of citizenry (and all that it entails) with the subjects (and all that it entails) we have today that are led by the nose or are too apathetic to protect their own natural and political rights.

No, I am not confused, perhaps you've confused what I was implying, or perhaps we are talking about two different things. You almost seem to be advocating for a leader-less society.

[Vangelovski]

SoM,

I'm not advocating a 'leader-less' society, but I am saying that no matter how 'strong' a leader is, it will never replace a free and critical thinking citizenry. Besides, leaders are a product of the society from which they come - they are not independent of it. If you want a 'strong' AND ideologically sound leader, then you need a free citizenry to mould those leaders.

Further, a 'leader' of the citizenry does not hold authority to make decisions on their behalf in the context which we are discussing, regardless of the fact that he is sitting at the 'negotiation table'. That authority lies with the body of citizens and a 'leaders' role is simply to convey the views of the citizenry. If the citizenry were to accept a capitulation made by a 'leader' on their behalf and without their authority, they are no longer citizens, they become subjects voluntarily refusing to exercise their natural and political rights (note, they cannot give up their rights, they just choose not to exercise them).

We may be discussing something different, let me go back a few pages to read the rest of the posts. I based my comments on what I read on page 10.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That authority lies with the body of citizens and a 'leaders' role is simply to convey the views of the citizenry.

So how can citizens (realistically) exercise that authority, in the context of this discussion?

[Vangelovski]

So how can citizens (realistically) exercise that authority, in the context of this discussion?

I think there are some deeper issues, but to answer your question, citizens can exercise that authority on a number of levels. Through direct participation in the political process (joining/forming a political party, lobbying etc) all the way through to civil disobedience, continuous protest that shuts down the capacity of the state to function properly and if needs be violent overthrow of what would by now be a dictator.

We should also remember that some of the most important revolutions in history began through spontaneous and uncoordinated actions from individuals and small groups of individuals, only to be 'organised' half-way through. Free citizens are capable of doing this because they have the will and a critical mind to determine when their interests or rights are been violated and take corrective action. They can also sustain resistence indefinately. Conversly, a society structured (mentally) around the idea of a 'strong leader' will fade away and accept its fate once this leader is out of the picture. Nor will they be able to readily replace him with someone that holds the same qualities that he may have had.

I'm not trying to argue that leadership does not play a role, it certainly does, but it should be viewed within its proper democratic context.

[Jankovska]

Macedonia needs a strong leader and by that I mean a leader that will think and care only for Macedonia and the Macedonian people. Have we had a leader like that? NO. No one is born educated in the matters of the world, peoples thinking shapes up. If you have a person who will strongly stand for what is right, who will say the truth, who will look after the people you will have people who will want the same, if you have a person who is Macedonia in his heart and soul you will have people who will be ready to die for that person. Afterall Vangelovski you are the follower of Jesus, was he not a leader? People to this day are prepared to die for him, why? Because he stood for justice, for what those people wanted and needed. Macedonia needs a leader who will speak to minorities and who will stand firm, not someone who bends down and takes it from behind. Macedonia needs a leader who will say our name is not up for negotiation, the people of Macedonia are and will stay the people of Macedonia. Macedonia needs a leader who will not send him soldiers to war without the right to defend themselves. Macedonia needs a leader who will make sure the Macedonian language and history is studied throughout the whole country. Macedonia needs a leader who will not be just looking after his own pocket and the pockets of the mafijasi with him but who will look after his people and their pockets. Macedonia needs a leader who will not stand and lie to his people about EU and the heaven it brings but who will speak to them honestly, who will tell them what they've got to lose. You cannot expect 2 million people to lead a country, no matter how good their intentions are it will be chaos. We are not 2 million on this forum and we all fight for the same cause and yet we dissagree on daily basis. Every country needs a leader, Macedonia needs a strong, pure heart and soul one. They needs a leader who will show the people that he is not just for himself but that he is prepared to die for that country and that name.