Macedonia: Patriots, Traitors, Enemies and the Ignorant

[Soldier of Macedon]

In Macedonia, there are patriots, traitors, enemies and the ignorant. I would like to open a discussion regarding this topic so we explore the views of MTO members where it concerns the percentage of each group. To begin with, let's give each group an equal percentage and see how it modifies during the development of this discussion.

20% - Patriots (Macedonians)
20% - Traitors (Macedonians)
20% - Proud Nationals (minorities)
20% - Enemies (minorities)
20% - Ignorant (Macedonians, minorities)

Of course, this is a very simple take on it, and I would assume that the list can be further elaborated and ammended based on the thoughts of other participants on this thread. Do we have more patriots than traitors? More enemies than patriots? I would think that a significant percentage would fall within the ignorant category.

[Vangelovski]

Although I would not normally engage in a thread like this (because it is impossible to come to reasonably accurate assessment), I would have to agree, based on personal experience and annecdotal evidence, the the vast majority of Macedonians in both the diaspora and Macedonia fall into the ignorent category. This, however, does not preclude them, in my view, of being genuine patriots, though they can be easily led astray and support policies and actions that they would not necessarily support if they fully understood the issue at hand. But this is just my subjective view.

[Volk]

I think the vast majority of Macedonians in Macedonia are patriots, however with the majority of them being ignorant.

I even talked to Branko supporters that said he would not change the name, and saw little to no difference between SDSM and VMRO.

These are intelligent educated people by the way with good jobs.

People like this, that desperately want Macedonia to improve and by some major ignorance forget what SDSM did to the country and point to VMRO for robbing it and as an example see 2014, statues as a way that the government is stealing money.

97% of the people I spoke to in Macedonia rejected any name change.

Ignorant is by far the biggest percentage in my opinion and most of these fall under the influence of the infected media in the country.

[Risto the Great]

Probably the same level of ignorance as any other country.
Most people haven't got a clue about what is going on in their own country.
Broadly speaking, Macedonians must find it odd that we in the Diaspora are more interested in Macedonia's affairs than they are.
The danger of being ignorant in Macedonia is that Macedonians still potentially have a great deal to lose.

[TrueMacedonian]

25% - Traitors (Macedonians)

You should add minorities in this list. It wasn't too long ago that a bunch of Vlachs in Macedonia were dancing with the grk flag. It seems lately the Vlachs in Macedonia are starting to come up with their own version of re-visionist history that they are the original inhabitants of the balkans and everyone else came with the "Slavs". I find that traitorous.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Good point TM, although I have listed them under enemies because if they are not Macedonian and work against Macedonia, then they are enemies of the state. Traitors should remain for Macedonian sellouts only, I think. What are your thoughts?

[indigen]

You should add minorities in this list. It wasn't too long ago that a bunch of Vlachs in Macedonia were dancing with the grk flag. It seems lately the Vlachs in Macedonia are starting to come up with their own version of re-visionist history that they are the original inhabitants of the balkans and everyone else came with the "Slavs". I find that traitorous.

I think that version has been taught by "our" state educational institutions and "MANU".

Speaking of "MANU", they officially agreed to change the name about 2.5 years ago in the lead up to Bucharest NATO summit of 2008.

МАНУ: Предлогот во основа прифатлив

Претседателството на МАНУ, во проширен состав со поранешните претседатели на МАНУ, го поддржа последниот предлог на медијаторот Метју Нимиц за името.

"Предлогот претставува прифатлива основа за постигнување согласност со Република Грција затоа што го поддржува уставното име на Република Македонија и ја афирмира македонската национална самобитност", се вели во соопштението на МАНУ. Академиците тврдат дека предлогот е компромис на македонската страна, но истовремено не ја преминува црвената линија. "Прифаќањето на овој Предлог не налага промени на Уставот на Република Македонија за уставното име на државата и на македонскиот национален идентитет", смета МАНУ.

Според нив, важно е што е предвидено слободно и неексклузивно користење на атрибутот "македонски", во национална, етничка, јазична, културна и друга смисла. Новопредложеното меѓународно име "Република Македонија (Скопје)", за меѓународна службена употреба, не е негација на уставното име", тврдат академиците.
"Со прифаќање на ова меѓународно име, ќе се надмине апсурдноста на досегашната привремена референца (ПЈРМ). Отфрлањето на овој предлог може да има крајно негативни консеквенции за Македонија", велат тие. Во МАНУ се зажгрижени дека земјата нема да може да ја користи самостојно скратено име Македонија, но сугерираат македонија да ги предолжи преговиоте до Самитот на НАТо во Букурешт. "Надлежните органи треба што побрзо да ги усогласат ставовите на нашата преговарачка страна и со нив да го запознаат медијаторот на овие преговори", препорачуваат академиците. Н.С.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=4827

[indigen]

IMO, out of the 60% (as the new Census will probably show) of Macedonians approximately only 5% (5/60 = 8.33% of All Macedonians in MK) would be traitors to varying degrees and another 10% (10/60 = 16.67 %) inadvertent supporters of the political parties that carry out the treason. To Sum up, only 15% out of 100% population would be Macedonian Traitors of some sort and, IMO, only 5% would be in the key (but graded) enemy category. Thus, in my view, if we were to politically eliminate the key 1 or 2 percent of traitors in Macedonian society, things would start to look up for the Macedonian Cause.

[TrueMacedonian]

Good point TM, although I have listed them under enemies because if they are not Macedonian and work against Macedonia, then they are enemies of the state. Traitors should remain for Macedonian sellouts only, I think. What are your thoughts?

Vlachs played an important part of Macedonia's not too distant history. They have given us Pitu Guli, at least half of Mother Theresa, and recently Toshe. This is only a small part of a long list. You never heard Macedonians say the things they say about Albanians, being nothing more than leaches and enemies to Macedonia, about the Vlachs. Alot of Vlachs are very pro-Macedonian. That is why I think they, or minorities, should be included.

[Soldier of Macedon]

By 'traitors' I was indicating those that belong to the Macedonian ethnos who have betrayed their own people. If they aren't Macedonian yet work against Macedonians, then they are enemies. If we count bad Vlachs as 'traitors' as opposed to 'enemies', then it suggests that the Macedonian ethnicity is formed by both Macedonians and Vlachs. That's my logic anyway. Make sense or no?

I am just trying to keep it as distinct as possible, that's all. I will include another group called proud nationals.

[Prolet]

Interesting thread, how would the political parties rank into this? We also have former politicians who've changed political groups in the past 20 years.

[Vangelovski]

What would be interesting is everyone's (on this forum) perception of which category they themselves fit in - I bet we would have 110% patriots

[Prolet]

I dont know about you Vangelovski but i think the majority of us here are patriots

[Soldier of Macedon]

Should we include another group called 'vassals'? This would be for those Macedonians and minority members who aren't traitors or enemies per se, but still blindly support traitors or enemies. For example, I consider Branko Crvenkovski a downright maggot of a traitor, however, I wouldn't lump all SDS voters in the same basket. With the latter, I would either place them in the 'ignorant' category, or, the more adamant SDS supporters as 'vassals'. Any thoughts?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I dont know about you Vangelovski but i think the majority of us here are patriots

Prolet, how would you rank Gruevski?