Macedonia: Patriots, Traitors, Enemies and the Ignorant

[Bill77]

Importantly what I didn't see allot was civil movements bar 2 in in Skopje working hard to further Macedonian national Interests without the coaching of a USAID check

No sign of a fair right Political Minor either I bet everyone would be cheering here if there was one I would be

Something substantial is needed a revolution, sorry a shitty Forum space only gives you a avenue to speak to a select few without really being seen and heard if you all know what I mean

Someone who is prepared to burn a few bridges and kill individuals who shouldn’t be walking will be moving us in a different direction
this will shock the Macedonian public from the their contemplative slumber

When I was in Bitola I meet a Croatian Austrian (not Australian) who came back from Zagreb he had similar experience I had but he noted the difference in Croatia was there was a substantial movement and home grown that is emerging but not in his observations in Macedonia

Again when i say Macedonians are ignorant and lazy yes it is a swipe but largely true

You know what, i am on your side on this (apart from this shitty forum space comment).

Blood needs to be spilled and that blood must come from traitorous politicians to start with.

We can not depend on and expect governments or any other type of rulers, to control whats in our best interest. Its up to the people to take care of our destiny.

Just ask the Russians, French, most recently Romanians (just to name a few in history).
But do we have the hunger to take matter into our own hands? Sadly it looks like no.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thats a hypothetical question......

Then don't make hypothetical comparisons.

I havnt seen or heard Premier Gruevski say anything about giving up our name.........he said on the Milenko Nedelkovski show that he wont rule out leaving the negotiations is a positive sign and its clear that our Delegation is starting to run out of patience and are getting sick and tired of being blackmailed by the Greek side.

Prolet, what are they negotiating? A bi-lateral name with Greece? Do you find that acceptable?

[Soldier of Macedon]

The fact that such a thread even exists is quite concerning, there is no need to speculate on "What percentage of people are 'Ignorant' " etc., as there is no benefit in creating such a figure.

Concerning for who, people like you? The benefit, as Risto appropriately highlighted, is to identify who it is that we need to be establishing contact with for the purpose of swaying them towards the Macedonian Cause, and who it is that we need to be aware of. I know you want to be practical, but you also live in a world where ignorance is bliss. Only a narrow or deliberate fool would assume that I was referring to those labelled 'ignorant' (on this issue) in this discussion as generally ignorant. I take offence to your suggestion as I know for a fact that most Macedonians in Macedonia, including my 16 year old cousin in Bitola have more sense of Macedonian patriotism than a semi-compromised jester like yourself.

SoM the percentages that you have given imho are quite divisive and is an example of gross generalisation (the same extent of generalisation which was being discussed on another thread, and the negative consequences of such a generalisation).

I personally wouldn't be suprised if people in Macedonia stumble across this thread and laugh at it. It's absurdity is unparralled (the core focus, the ideas which people are getting across are generally good).

Mastika, I think any Macedonian or non-Macedonian following this thread would have read the opening paragraph on the first page, where I clearly state: To begin with, let's give each group an equal percentage and see how it modifies during the development of this discussion. I was being objective. Let me know if you're still confused.

Why not have a thread "How best to spread the message of the MTO throughout Macedonia and the Diaspora"? It would be much more benefical.

Excellent idea, why not make one yourself, rather than tire us with your armchair critique! That would be more beneficial, don't you think? Or are you going to wait for us to make one first?

[Mastika]

Concerning for who, people like you? The benefit, as Risto appropriately highlighted, is to identify who it is that we need to be establishing contact with for the purpose of swaying them towards the Macedonian Cause, and who it is that we need to be aware of. I know you want to be practical, but you also live in a world where ignorance is bliss. Only a narrow or deliberate fool would assume that I was referring to those labelled 'ignorant' (on this issue) in this discussion as generally ignorant. I take offence to your suggestion as I know for a fact that most Macedonians in Macedonia, including my 16 year old cousin in Bitola have more sense of Macedonian patriotism than a semi-compromised jester like yourself.

You are not going to move forward by creating an imaginary figure of who is ignorant and who is a traitor. None of the above categories form easily identifyable groups, and therefore your efforts to distuinguish 'patriots' from 'the ignorant' on a nationwide level are doomed to fail.

Mastika, I think any Macedonian or non-Macedonian following this thread would have read the opening paragraph on the first page, where I clearly state: To begin with, let's give each group an equal percentage and see how it modifies during the development of this discussion. I was being objective. Let me know if you're still confused.

I am aware that the original figures you gave were merely a template, however it is the basis of this topic which is disturbing. You may have been 'objective' in your set-out however, the methodology through which you plan on creating a figure of 'enemies' and 'traitors' is highly subjective and pseudo-scientific. I am disturbed by the fact that you think by labelling people as 'Traitors' and 'Ignorant' you believe that you will be able to spread your message to them. If I was to label you as an Ignoramus (I know you are not), would you then listen to what I have to say and follow my advice? No, of course not, the same is true for adressing the wider population.

Any percentages are a generalisation and an unfair judgement on a person's character (whether they fall into any of the categories). A persons ethnic consciousness is highly intrinsic to them, and only they can fully make sense of how it relates to their identity and how it will determine/not determine actions throughout their life. Who am I to cast a judgement on people that I don't even know/have no idea about?

Excellent idea, why not make one yourself, rather than tire us with your armchair critique! That would be more beneficial, don't you think? Or are you going to wait for us to make one first?

Here is a first step, why not make sure that those people around us are aware of what the Macedonian cause is and how it is beneficial to Macedonia/the Macedonian people. Let's face it, if we cannot convince our own families and friends, then what chance to we have of convincing people at a wider level. That is a logical first step. You will find that the vast majority of people will agree with you anyway.

If 20% of Macedonians are ignoramuses (or more as many people here are saying), then surely we must know many of them. Is what makes them "ignorant" really a sing of ignorance?, or is it a sign of lack of interest? That is why the whole notion of categorising people into artificial classifications is little more than pseudo-scientific nonsense.

I too don't like the "compartmentalising" of Macedonians in this manner. However, before we can work on a message to Macedonians, we need to be sure who our target market is. Why waste valuable resources trying to convince the already convinced? Some here barely want to concede there is a cancer in Macedonian society. Others will admit it but choose not to speculate about the extent. Others simply say "most of them".

Risto, I agree with your idea about greater research into the target market etc. However, here's a hypothetical, lets say we arrive at a figure of 25% ot the population being 'Ignoramuses'. We cannot simply use this figure and then approach every fourth person, expect them to be an ignoramus, and then tell them about the Macedonian Cause. Any application of such a figure would be impractical. As I have said above, A practical way of tackling the issue would be to discuss this issue with our family and friends, whose ideas on the issue we already know (No need for generalisations as the instances would be specific). Our personal knowledge about these person's ideas regarding Macedonian identity, language etc. are the only way of starting any real grassroots action.

From my point of view any collation of such statistics is useless when compared to highly personal and effective grassroots deliverance of the message which is the Macedonian cause.

[Risto the Great]

Mastika, almost all Macedonians embrace the Macedonian Cause in my experience. Yet many of the same people say stupid things like "lets use a composite name for NATO/EU entry". They might also say they like the new flag. So merely broadcasting the Macedonian Cause is not the answer. Grassroots campaigns make a great deal of sense and should be the fundamental aspect of the strategy. However, it is only part of the strategy. Another part is to reveal those that are actively working against the Cause. It still makes sense to identify the market segments in my opinion.

[George S.]

ithink some sort of reawakening of the populace is needed to turn things around.We don't need the political divison that currently exists from the moderate to the extreme.I think if the general populace awakens & sends a clear message of what they want then maybe things might change for the better.In the current scenario people are complacent & have that attitude she'll be right mate,but they forget they need to input their fellings as well not to sitback.

[Frank]

My brother was speaking to a close friend he said "I don't understand why Macedonia cant change its name"

My Brother then explained why not and like a lighting rod he awakened

It still didn't stop my brother wanting to bury him alive

That ignorance I have seen many occasions

[Frank]

You are not going to move forward by creating an imaginary figure of who is ignorant and who is a traitor

For the love of God please end this know

Look when I sit down with a Macedonian and the most fundamental elements we discuss every day on this Forum, that person is completely unaware of that is an ignorance I cant comprehend and I aint Imagining it is slapping me in my face

[Mikail]

Frank, firstly awaken to the fact that Macedonians exist outside the Rebublic. Many Macedonians within the Republic still crave the return of Tato Tito.

So far as a re-awakening in the Republic goes, I can't see it happening. 99.9% are concerned with getting food on the table. Like I said earlier, many are far better off and they don't want to rock the boat and lose what they have.

The biggest problem in Macedonia is that in order to get anywhere, or to get anything done, you need to tow the political line, and if you're not affiliated with one of the major parties you can't get anything done.

This is a gripe many have. Macedonia has many patriots who don't want to sell themselves out to the politics of the parties. So not much gets done.

[Frank]

Frank, firstly awaken to the fact that Macedonians exist outside the Rebublic.

Yes I am aware and kicking to that, how could anyone one not be

And we all need to accept our weakest link are the Agean Macedonains

Any one read the death notices in the Australian papers 'dedo' Christos loved by all. Even in death they die Greek by the side of a Greek Priest
traitors to their souls.

[Phoenix]

Yes I am aware and kicking to that, how could anyone one not be

And we all need to accept our weakest link are the Agean Macedonains

Any one read the death notices in the Australian papers 'dedo' Christos loved by all. Even in death they die Greek by the side of a Greek Priest
traitors to their souls.

Frank, I actually understand your frustration and agree with many of your points, I guess where you and I differ is in the fact that you want to jettison all of them, whereas I would like to surgically remove the negatives and concentrate on the positives...

My personal opinion is that diaspora efforts should target the Macedonian minority in Albania before the Albanian institutions become stronger, huge inroads have been made in Albania in a very short time and with miniscule resources, we have to seize this opportunity to further our cause before Albania becomes a EU member or serious candidate for membership...as we've seen in both greece and bulgaria, once those countries got into the EU all treaties and human rights charters have gone out the window...

[Frank]

Yes I would largely agree with what you said especially with concentrating on Macedonian in Albania as the first port of call

[Risto the Great]

I am captivated by the ethnic Macedonians in Albania but feel that a strong Macedonia is the best cure for all problems.

[Bill77]

The best leader since Metodija Andonov Chento, just like Russia has their Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin we have our own Nikola Gruevski.

We can only wish Gruevski spoke out like Putin.

Putin regarding Traitors of back in the USSR days and the situation today.

"This is an officer! This is a person who has betrayed his friends, his brothers-in-arms," Putin says. "Just think about that. A person spends his whole life serving his Motherland and some scum betrays one of his own. This is a swine!"

Putin said such traitors have no future: "Whatever sack of gold they received, they'll choke on it.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17109/53/

[Mikail]

Yes I am aware and kicking to that, how could anyone one not be

And we all need to accept our weakest link are the Agean Macedonains

Any one read the death notices in the Australian papers 'dedo' Christos loved by all. Even in death they die Greek by the side of a Greek Priest
traitors to their souls.

If you're aware of it Frank, then enough of the negative spin.

There would be no Macedonian Diaspora were it not for Agean Macedonians.

Perhaps we should start digging into how many Vardar Macedonians worked against Macedonian Communities whilst they were allied to the Serbian led Bratsvo Idinstvo.