Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

[spitfire]

Ok Spitfire my boy.
Let's start with abc. Who are the SLAVS?

Stand in front of a mirror. Now ask him. Out of all the connections a slav identifier has with your identity, how many and at which importance your identity consists of?
Hope the mirror answers.

[Kabadaja]

You're talking in riddles. I just looked in the mirror and saw quite a handsome man who is a Macedonian born Macedonian who speaks Macedonian.
By the way, are you calling me a Slav my boy?
Still doesn't explain who a SLAV is!!, come on Spitfire you are very very boring!! Who or what is a Slav? Are you a Slav?

[Risto the Great]

No it's not like the place you live in. Let me give you the picture from someone living actually in the area and is aware of the Balkans. Greece has Greeks.

Greece has no choice but to have Greeks. Only peasants like you can't understand why.

Come on now Risto. I'm sure this has happened in Greece during protests too. What's this supposed to mean? He filmed you, so what?
You weren't in a peculiar stance were you?

I was in a Macedonian stance. And I doubt the most suspect Greeks go running around in Greece filming other Greeks. You should get out more, you really have a limited outlook.

Where did I claim all these? Can you show me?

You said slav was an identifier. You struggle with what it is meant to identify. It's because you're just pushing an agenda.

By whom? I was not reffering to your slavic language, but the slavic idiom the few billinguals in aegean macedonia use.
You should really stop imagining what I say and quote me.
I expect better from you. I don't know why but I do.

I was suggesting you should get out more. But now I will say you should visit Macedonians in Greece more often. The Metaxan "idiom" you describe is precisely what I speak. But the name is wrong. It is Macedonian. It dominates the literary language of Macedonia. My people were renamed with Greek names in your hateful country. They were forced to speak the new language of yours in your hateful country. Ignorance is bliss you hateful Greek.

Again, my family were the bilinguals you spoke of. My grandparents spoke terrible Greek. They were forced to speak it. You can't remember a time when Greece was the mixed bag of ethnicities it always was. You have your head in the sand and proudly broadcast your ignorance. My grandparents spoke perfect Macedonian.

Your language, their idiom. It's not a language, they don't even have a written form, let alone tenses!

What would you know you ignorant fool.
1. The written form was all over your churches you fool. Try scratching the paint a little you hateful Greek.
2. The tenses are very well documented. What would you know, liar.
3. Your hate blinds you.
4. So typically Greek.

No I'm straight. You simply didn't get the vernacular. That's OK.

I knew it. I told you why you couldn't understand what it means to be a minority. But you still take it in the arse, by your government.

There is no macedonian minority in greece.

Greeks have said that for 100 years. Nothing new here. But here I am you hateful Greek.

You'll be banned soon. You deserve it. I hope you can grow up one day and develop the clarity of mind to see what your indoctrination has done to you.

[Amphipolis]

They are around above 70 years old now (grandparents not parents). I assume they visited in their late 20's or 30's but I could be off as I did not ask the precise decade. They did not tell me this because it was impressive. They said what they said and what I took from it was that heavy Macedonian communities existed then changed to become fearful partial Greek speakers who do not dare speak their mother tongue. I am the one who brought up their travelling history and this happened to be part of it. Who vanished? If these people are statistically labelled as ethnic Greeks who speak Greek therefore appear to be Greek, where do you think they vanished to? That's right, they haven't, they are still their living under Greek ethnicity. Which is why Spitfires 'acknowledgment of minorities' is quite dumb.

So, your grandparents visited Macedonia in the 60s-70s. That is almost 1 1/2 generation ago. Things may have slightly changed.

I would mostly relate ethnicity with mother language. For instance, someone who is born and raised in a Bulgarian family is NOT an ethnic-Greek, though he may breed Greek conscience or be fanatically Greek in a political sense or eventually become essentially Greek. This is not an academic example; it refers to cases I can remember from the Balkan Wars or the Macedonian Struggle.

Statistics on mother language and mostly-used language can be found (for the last time) in the 1951 census. For most recent estimations you can check the Van Boeschoten study I linked before. For ethnic-Macedonian consciousness in a political sense you should check the number and geographic distribution of Rainbow Party votes.

What language people speak in their house hold is statistically out of question, especially when it comes to Greece. If you are implying the younger generation was the only one who was forced to learn Greek in school you are wrong on that. I asked this question in particular and through time the elders do in fact learn how to speak sub-fluent Greek.

However, my question was quite clear. Do you agree there is a possibility you cannot visually see a Macedonian identity in Greece or statistically see a Macedonian identity for the same reason Macedonians who live in Greece have forcefully learnt your Greek language?

There have truly been elders that had Greek classes but they were very few and for short periods, so this is mostly a myth, an exaggeration. Since 1880s-1910 and the Greek-Bulgarian antagonism in Macedonia every village, even the smallest and most remote one would have a Greek and/or a Bulgarian school and Church. By 1912, the only people who would not speak Greek at all would be very old people in isolated areas or younger people who grew up in Exarchist villages.

All Slavophone populations and others (Vlachs, Turkophones etc) have been slowly (further) assimilated since 1912, but not only because of education. It’s a social, political and cultural process with various forms. Radio and television also played a role of unifying dialects and accents; they also “civilised” backward peasants and synchronised them with the latest fashions.

Yes, I doubt there are still people whose home language is not Greek by now. They must be very few, way lower than 1% in Macedonia. (Note: That does not refer to recent immigrants).

==

[George S.]

Spitfire we as macedonians know we have had a slight linguistic influence rather than an ethnic influence THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.THe ethnic identity had been retained.Not the out of proprtion answer by you and your greek govt.If you are so smart you would realise that the macedonian people have dcided by a refendum what they are to be called macedonians.Not as slav macedonians as you claim .You are wrong.
If we were slav macedonian i for one would openly admit it.THe people know who they are.You are our enemy what makes you sure you are right its not in your intersts.You have been lying on many fronts.What can we expect.Shall we look at your own fake identity.
Oh spitfire have you niticed the way your greek govt cannot do no wrong is responsible for all the slav bs raised agains't the macedonians.
telling us were not macedonians we don't desrve our name.Of course they have tried to appropriate everything macedonian.All they had was solon and pisstratus ,piareus etc Thats why they have to steal other people's history ,land ,glory etc sounds familiar.How can someone allreadt macedonian,someone steal their own identity.Sounds absurd??But its the greek govt it has done absurd attrocities,genocide on the macedonians.Nothing sur prises me. most except morons like spitfire who acknowledge their greek govt cannot do no wrong.Also telling us were not macedonians but slavs.

[spitfire]

Greece has no choice but to have Greeks. Only peasants like you can't understand why.

On the contrary, Greece has Greeks, it's not like the area you live in. I understand nostalgia, but oh boy, it must be very hard for you.

I was in a Macedonian stance. And I doubt the most suspect Greeks go running around in Greece filming other Greeks. You should get out more, you really have a limited outlook.

Well perhaps the greeks are not caught in a peculiar stance and they are not worth filming for.
But really, your argument makes no sense. There was a guy tht was filming you, therefore there is a macedonian minority? How do you connect these two?

You said slav was an identifier. You struggle with what it is meant to identify. It's because you're just pushing an agenda.

Nope, I said slav is an identifier. I happen to have a different agenda than the greek government my dear.
I think that you are macedonin because macedonia is enriched with your culture, greek culture etc.
The greek govt. completely denies your identity and any connection to macedonia. It's a world of difference.
And above all, by accepting your macedonian idenity I automatically connect you with macedonia as a whole.
Try to work a little on that. You 'll figure it out.

I was suggesting you should get out more. But now I will say you should visit Macedonians in Greece more often. The Metaxan "idiom" you describe is precisely what I speak. But the name is wrong. It is Macedonian. It dominates the literary language of Macedonia. My people were renamed with Greek names in your hateful country. They were forced to speak the new language of yours in your hateful country. Ignorance is bliss you hateful Greek.

It is a slavic idiom, related to your slavic language as it does with all slavic language of the area. That's it. Take it or leave it.
I don't deny mistakes of the greeks in the past Risto. I have already said that. In fact I already explained the Metaxas regime. Try to be more consistent when you read and not jump posts of mine.

Again, my family were the bilinguals you spoke of. My grandparents spoke terrible Greek. They were forced to speak it. You can't remember a time when Greece was the mixed bag of ethnicities it always was. You have your head in the sand and proudly broadcast your ignorance. My grandparents spoke perfect Macedonian.

You are telling me that your grandparents spoke the same language as you, but you are not telling me how this idiom spoken by these specific people differs from your language.
You understand the difference, I suppose.

What would you know you ignorant fool.
1. The written form was all over your churches you fool. Try scratching the paint a little you hateful Greek.
2. The tenses are very well documented. What would you know, liar.
3. Your hate blinds you.
4. So typically Greek.

No my foolish and easily misguided friend.

1. They don't have a written form and they have barely a grammar. That's not a language. That's an idiom. They also have influences from greek, bulgarian and turkish. Are you still trying to claim their idiom as your language? I don't think so because it hurts. It burns!!!
2. I am not tlking about your language I am talking about their idiom, you psychotic.
3. Your ignorance deafens you.
4. So typically nationalistic.

I knew it. I told you why you couldn't understand what it means to be a minority. But you still take it in the arse, by your government.

Greeks have said that for 100 years. Nothing new here. But here I am you hateful Greek.

You'll be banned soon. You deserve it. I hope you can grow up one day and develop the clarity of mind to see what your indoctrination has done to you.

You will have to bring me a recognised minority. Otherwise you are simply trying to make out one.
That's what stands. Not your imagination.
Ban me and prove you can't stand the truth. Avoid disclosure if you must.

[spitfire]

You're talking in riddles. I just looked in the mirror and saw quite a handsome man who is a Macedonian born Macedonian who speaks Macedonian.
By the way, are you calling me a Slav my boy?
Still doesn't explain who a SLAV is!!, come on Spitfire you are very very boring!! Who or what is a Slav? Are you a Slav?

Change the mirror until it answers.

[Amphipolis]

C'mon Spitfire Mr Cosmopolitan..
Slavic ethnicity and Slavic origin??
I speak Macedonian and the Macedonian minority in Grease speak Macedonian. Idiom??? You don't speak Macedonian but you label the Macedonian language spoken by the minority in Grease as an idiom. Filipov speaks perfect Macedonian, being of the Macedonian minority in Grease, that is easily understand by all Macedonians that speak the Macedonian language!!
Being so close to the Balkans, telling me about the Slavic ethnicity and slavic origin should be a peace of cake for you.Who are these Slavs and where did they come from?

This is a (possible) answer by Misirkov. I just copy/paste, so I hope it is accurate and you won't kill me if it's not.

Krste Misirkov in his book "On Macedonian matters" (Chapter:Can Macedonia turn itself into a separate ethnographical and political unit? Has it already done so? Is it doing so now?):

If the formation of the South Slav peoples was a mechanical and political process it would not be impossible that it might recur in present times. Within the South Slav language complex there are several branches outside the Serbian and Bulgarian political units; these are the Macedonian dialects. These branches, since they are closely allied, naturally have some connection linking them more closely with Bulgarian in the east and Serbian in the north.

These branches have been given various names at various times but it was not until the last quarter of the nineteenth century that these names overlapped so much as to displace one another. These various names did not properly catch on, and gradually they began to give way until finally they were replaced by the natural description Slav" with a "Macedonian" reflection from the geographical area in which they were distributed.

The people who spoke these dialects had once been called "Slavs" and later either "Serbs" or "Bulgarians" until the rivalry between these two names made them both alien to the Macedonian Slavs, who started calling themselves after the old geographical name of their country.

The name Macedonian was first used by the Macedonian Slavs as a geographical term to indicate their origin. This name is well known to the Macedonian Slavs and all of them use it to describe themselves. Since the formation of nationalities is a political and mechanical process, all the necessary conditions exist for Macedonia to break off as an independent ethnographic region.

[Momce Makedonce]

There are people in modern day Greece that claim to have been abducted by UFOs. I don't deny that either.
I do deny the existence of a macedonian minority in Greece.

Stop inflicting upon those people and their country. They don't want you in this. Respect that at least.
Not that you have any other alternative that is.

These people are Macedonians, not Greeks. They regard themselves as a different ethnicity to Greeks. They have the same heritage as me, the same culture and speak the same language that I speak.
Can you get that through your ignorant head?

"They don't want you in this". What the hell would a Greek like you know about what these people want ? You wont even admit that they exist you fool.

[Momce Makedonce]

There are people in modern day Greece that claim to have been abducted by UFOs. I don't deny that either.
I do deny the existence of a macedonian minority in Greece.

Stop inflicting upon those people and their country. They don't want you in this. Respect that at least.
Not that you have any other alternative that is.

Explain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTIM2bQKGv8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8oW_hcNyZc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPp5740zXg

[spitfire]

Explain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTIM2bQKGv8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8oW_hcNyZc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPp5740zXg

Are you sure you want me to explain?

I'm asking this because the parts of that show are 15 and they are more than two hours long.

You picked the wrong guy Harthavelas. He is known to have made many shows about how you try to use those people and quite many times he has held panels exposing your propaganda.
The title is a mockery.

Bullseye M.M. You couldn't bring a worse example for your case. You just commited suicide...

[spitfire]

These people are Macedonians, not Greeks. They regard themselves as a different ethnicity to Greeks. They have the same heritage as me, the same culture and speak the same language that I speak.
Can you get that through your ignorant head?

"They don't want you in this". What the hell would a Greek like you know about what these people want ? You wont even admit that they exist you fool.

These people have a country and it is Greece. They don't want you interfering with their affairs with the greek state and any of their affairs at all. It's their right, you should respect them.

Can you get that through your simplistic brain of yours or what? Can you just for once stop claiming what is greek?
Can you be a little more rational as to not show every given chance how irredentist you are?
You can't help it. So does Greece when it uses your pathetic ignorance to its advantage you fools.
Go play with Gruefsky's Disneyland now.

[Momce Makedonce]

Are you sure you want me to explain?

I'm asking this because the parts of that show are 15 and they are more than two hours long.

You picked the wrong guy Harthavelas. He is known to have made many shows about how you try to use those people and quite many times he has held panels exposing your propaganda.
The title is a mockery.

Bullseye M.M. You couldn't bring a worse example for your case. You just commited suicide...

Spitfire your ignorance actually disgusts me. Why are they not claiming they are Greeks? Is this the 1% of Greece that isn`t Greek?

I can`t remember if it was you or perhaps one of your countrymen that argued earlier in this thread about the way that Eva Kaili should be allowed to claim that she is 'Macedonian', why does the same not apply for these people? Why are you deciding their ethnicity for them?

[spitfire]

Spitfire your ignorance actually disgusts me. Why are they not claiming they are Greeks? Is this the 1% of Greece that isn`t Greek?

I can`t remember if it was you or perhaps one of your countrymen that argued earlier in this thread about the way that Eva Kaili should be allowed to claim that she is 'Macedonian', why does the same not apply for these people? Why are you deciding their ethnicity for them?

Keep trying to claim them and you'll find your minority effort down the drain.
Can't you see that by doing so, it results to the opposite? Be my guest. Who cares, in the end you are helping Greece.

Kaili is Greek from macedonia. You have mixed your ethnicities and identities again in your mind.

[Momce Makedonce]

These people have a country and it is Greece. They don't want you interfering with their affairs with the greek state and any of their affairs at all. It's their right, you should respect them.

Can you get that through your simplistic brain of yours or what? Can you just for once stop claiming what is greek?
Can you be a little more rational as to not show every given chance how irredentist you are?
You can't help it. So does Greece when it uses your pathetic ignorance to its advantage you fools.
Go play with Gruefsky's Disneyland now.

I repeat, how the hell would YOU know what these people want.

I`m simplistic? You spastic, the truth is right in front of your miserable eyes and yet, you cant even admit that there is a minority in Greece that self identifies as Macedonian.

Shame on you.