International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Soldier of Macedon]

OM, have you had any sleep since you popped those purple pills a few days ago? Take some rest, your rabble is becoming tiresome.

yeah the governments action really look like that of a traitor.

Yeah, they do. In case you haven't realised, that fool you fools blindly follow is negotiating our identity with Greece. Still. It's 2011, wake up and smell the coffee.

Also re read your collective earlier posts all doom and gloom we’ve lost its all over ect.

It's not doom and gloom, it is accepting reality for what it is, and understanding that change is required in Macedonia. Meanwhile, you're talking about going forth as 'fyrom', like a tikva bez semki.

By the sound of you lot one would think you just found out the name change has actually happened and not just a historic proposal but also one that was rejected.

The name change HAS HAPPENED. In all international organisations Macedonia is referred to by that acronym you desire so much. The Bucharest suggestion was to change our name again, from 'fyrom' internationally and 'rom' domestically to 'roms' collectively.

Macedonians need less weaklings like yourself, your pathetic submissiveness is embarrassing for our people.

[Risto the Great]

fyrOM,
I just changed your name.
I know you don't care .... in the name of progress'n'all.

In relation to your grey areas, Macedonia has never EVER asserted itself. Wouldn't it be a pleasant change for Macedonians to be proud of themselves?

[fyrOM]

fyrOM,
I just changed your name.
I know you don't care .... in the name of progress'n'all.

In relation to your grey areas, Macedonia has never EVER asserted itself. Wouldn't it be a pleasant change for Macedonians to be proud of themselves?

We may agree on some things and disagree on others but your quirky sense of humor is like mine…good one.

As to the grey areas all Im saying is if you are going to do something…eg pull out of this or that…you need to look at the wider picture and the logistics of the action and how it affects other things and what to do with the new set of problems.

[Vangelovski]

Did someone slip something into fyrOM's bong last night?

fyrOM, you don't have a point. The only reason there are states that do not recognise Macedonia's name (besides Greece) is because our Government is telling them that they are willing to change it in order to appease the Greeks. Ending the negotiations removes that option. If they choose not to recognise our state name, then we do not need to maintain any state contacts with them. In terms of commercial trade, I think you need to pull the banana out of your brain and think about what role governments play in the free market and international commerce. Further, if you seriously believe that every country in the world would enforce an economic embargo on Macedonia over its name, it means you've smudged the banana in your brain and caused more damage.

This has been done ad nauseum on the forum, but the Greek economic blockade was a) one-sided and would have collapsed much earlier if Macedonia reciprocated and b) was about to be dismantled by the European Court of Justice because the European Union instigated proceedings against Greece over the matter. Had the idiots (who appear to be your ideological mentors) reciprocated the blockade and/or held out a little longer, they would not have had to sign the Interim Accord.

At this stage, the usual apologist will retort that everyone in Macedonia would have died of starvation if they didn't capitulate. We of course know that is just plain idiotic reasoning because we have literally thousands of examples from history and the present were that is not the case. I could mention the Palestinians, Cuba and Armenia, where not only one of their borders were blocked but ALL and for decades. Yet the people were resiliant, and not because they had bags of cash under their beds or superpowers backing them or any other nonsense, but because they understood that they were humans and humans can not live like dogs. They resolved to resist their enemies and exercise their natural rights. Yes, their natural rights.

But you don't seem to believe in natural rights fyrOM, so I will tell you the same as I tell everyone who refuses to believe in them - lead by example and refrain from exercising your natural right to freedom of thought and expression. Otherwise, do not try and convince us that we should refrain from our natural right to self-determination.

[fyrOM]

I have always said that signing the IA was the poorer of 2 difficult paths as it is better to have a blow up when you haven’t spent ages fixing up the place. Further I am bloody minded enough to endure eating salt and pepper and not give up but likewise how Greece prevented the wine sales it is also realistic other trade with the eu and usa would have probably stopped. You seem to discount this point completely. This doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the world just that Macedonia would have to find other countries to trade with and probably experienced slow economic growth…there’s no short term solutions. How many people would have wanted to skip the country. Cubans have nowhere to go and still some try to escape each year.

The other fly is the Albanian issue who would not want to suffer anything for someone else’s name and would have brought the conflict sooner. Arms purchases should have been the first priority and an ever ready state of preparation for war from within. It was inevitable but still the Macedonians were caught not ready although recent articles strongly suggest political corruption for this situation.

Macedonia did not take option 1 and the current government is faced with a different set of problems today having walked down the path of option 2 for so long. Just jumping to the other path now is not an easy option. Whatever option is looked at it has its own different set of problems and basically becomes a choice of which problems would you rather face. The 1st path was fists and early on with the prospect of invasion to protect the Albanians and still contend with non recognition of the name while the 2nd was to bluff until you get the numbers as Macedonia is getting now. Unlike Cuba where economics is really the only problem and not an excuse for invasion the Albanian issue would present as an issue for invasion and possible loss of territory. Its not just economics as you seem to think. It’s a mess either way. Also you need to consider what pressure was put on the politicians in the form of an offer he couldn’t refuse. Its easy to sit back behind a computer and say dang it you guys should have endured economic hardship and been prepared to arm yourself and fight for our name but I can imagine many Macedonians thinking how many of you in the diaspora are hopping on that plane right now to join us or should I be hopping on a plane to join you. Have any of you bought a ticket yet.

Macedonia is on the path of bluffing and the current government is doing all it can to follow that path. They are not traitors.

The other part of the bluff game is that it is still possible to just pull out after playing the see we tried everything card for the court of public opinion and the ICJ is starting to look like it’s the role playing needed for this if things don’t work out. As the outcome is deliberately delayed until the end of the year it is clearly a delay tactic by the west and I suspect time for other countries to join the name recognition camp without drawing attention to this fact. It is speculation from the distance you and I are but I have a positive feeling about it especially with more countries looking to invest in Macedonia. Do they know something we don’t know. Vested interests leads to positive pressure to protect those interests. It doesn’t look like time to just pull out now. The bluff game is the safer option and the one they went with and looks like eventually winning. The name just wont change no matter how scary the bluffs look.

[indigen]

I have always said that signing the IA was the poorer of 2 difficult paths as it is better to have a blow up when you haven’t spent ages fixing up the place. Further I am bloody minded enough to endure eating salt and pepper and not give up but likewise how Greece prevented the wine sales it is also realistic other trade with the eu and usa would have probably stopped. You seem to discount this point completely. This doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the world just that Macedonia would have to find other countries to trade with and probably experienced slow economic growth…there’s no short term solutions. How many people would have wanted to skip the country. Cubans have nowhere to go and still some try to escape each year.

The other fly is the Albanian issue who would not want to suffer anything for someone else’s name and would have brought the conflict sooner. Arms purchases should have been the first priority and an ever ready state of preparation for war from within. It was inevitable but still the Macedonians were caught not ready although recent articles strongly suggest political corruption for this situation.

Macedonia did not take option 1 and the current government is faced with a different set of problems today having walked down the path of option 2 for so long. Just jumping to the other path now is not an easy option. Whatever option is looked at it has its own different set of problems and basically becomes a choice of which problems would you rather face. The 1st path was fists and early on with the prospect of invasion to protect the Albanians and still contend with non recognition of the name while the 2nd was to bluff until you get the numbers as Macedonia is getting now. Unlike Cuba where economics is really the only problem and not an excuse for invasion the Albanian issue would present as an issue for invasion and possible loss of territory. Its not just economics as you seem to think. It’s a mess either way. Also you need to consider what pressure was put on the politicians in the form of an offer he couldn’t refuse. Its easy to sit back behind a computer and say dang it you guys should have endured economic hardship and been prepared to arm yourself and fight for our name but I can imagine many Macedonians thinking how many of you in the diaspora are hopping on that plane right now to join us or should I be hopping on a plane to join you. Have any of you bought a ticket yet.

Macedonia is on the path of bluffing and the current government is doing all it can to follow that path. They are not traitors.

The other part of the bluff game is that it is still possible to just pull out after playing the see we tried everything card for the court of public opinion and the ICJ is starting to look like it’s the role playing needed for this if things don’t work out. As the outcome is deliberately delayed until the end of the year it is clearly a delay tactic by the west and I suspect time for other countries to join the name recognition camp without drawing attention to this fact. It is speculation from the distance you and I are but I have a positive feeling about it especially with more countries looking to invest in Macedonia. Do they know something we don’t know. Vested interests leads to positive pressure to protect those interests. It doesn’t look like time to just pull out now. The bluff game is the safer option and the one they went with and looks like eventually winning. The name just wont change no matter how scary the bluffs look.

At some stage MTO admins will need to look at taking action in order to exclude pathetic idiots, traitors and trolls from undermining the aims and objectives of the MTO and the Macedonian Cause, IMHO!

[George S.]

OM you should read the interim accord & see first hand how greece is screwing macedonia in a corner.Branko Crvenkovski signed that agreement,Macedonia is treated like shit in this document as outlined in another thread by vangelovski.THe bluffing by Macedonias politicians is not bluff but real.You need a wakeup call.Gruevski allready agreed to have republic of macedonia(skopje) as a name & om the greeks did not accept it.You have an attitude of wait & see & it's only a bluff.I don't think so.Don'y forget the negotitions are ongoing until greece accepts a name they are happy with.If greece had their way there would be no macedonia in the name at all.

[Vangelovski]

fyrOM,

You've been reading too many Tom Clancy novels while smoking your bong.

Are you going to lead by example, and refrain from exercising your natural right to freedom of thought and expression? Noone is going to go for the slave mentality "option" if even its backers cannot suffer the same.

[Phoenix]

We may agree on some things and disagree on others but your quirky sense of humor is like mine…good one.

Easy there tiger...

Risto has wit...while you have twit...

[Volk]

I have always said that signing the IA was the poorer of 2 difficult paths as it is better to have a blow up when you haven’t spent ages fixing up the place. Further I am bloody minded enough to endure eating salt and pepper and not give up but likewise how Greece prevented the wine sales it is also realistic other trade with the eu and usa would have probably stopped. You seem to discount this point completely. This doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the world just that Macedonia would have to find other countries to trade with and probably experienced slow economic growth…there’s no short term solutions. How many people would have wanted to skip the country. Cubans have nowhere to go and still some try to escape each year.

The other fly is the Albanian issue who would not want to suffer anything for someone else’s name and would have brought the conflict sooner. Arms purchases should have been the first priority and an ever ready state of preparation for war from within. It was inevitable but still the Macedonians were caught not ready although recent articles strongly suggest political corruption for this situation.

Macedonia did not take option 1 and the current government is faced with a different set of problems today having walked down the path of option 2 for so long. Just jumping to the other path now is not an easy option. Whatever option is looked at it has its own different set of problems and basically becomes a choice of which problems would you rather face. The 1st path was fists and early on with the prospect of invasion to protect the Albanians and still contend with non recognition of the name while the 2nd was to bluff until you get the numbers as Macedonia is getting now. Unlike Cuba where economics is really the only problem and not an excuse for invasion the Albanian issue would present as an issue for invasion and possible loss of territory. Its not just economics as you seem to think. It’s a mess either way. Also you need to consider what pressure was put on the politicians in the form of an offer he couldn’t refuse. Its easy to sit back behind a computer and say dang it you guys should have endured economic hardship and been prepared to arm yourself and fight for our name but I can imagine many Macedonians thinking how many of you in the diaspora are hopping on that plane right now to join us or should I be hopping on a plane to join you. Have any of you bought a ticket yet.

Macedonia is on the path of bluffing and the current government is doing all it can to follow that path. They are not traitors.

The other part of the bluff game is that it is still possible to just pull out after playing the see we tried everything card for the court of public opinion and the ICJ is starting to look like it’s the role playing needed for this if things don’t work out. As the outcome is deliberately delayed until the end of the year it is clearly a delay tactic by the west and I suspect time for other countries to join the name recognition camp without drawing attention to this fact. It is speculation from the distance you and I are but I have a positive feeling about it especially with more countries looking to invest in Macedonia. Do they know something we don’t know. Vested interests leads to positive pressure to protect those interests. It doesn’t look like time to just pull out now. The bluff game is the safer option and the one they went with and looks like eventually winning. The name just wont change no matter how scary the bluffs look.

OM, I agree with most of what you wrote, however this 'bluff' announcing to the world that we accept RM (skopje) is a fallacy that is beyond comprehension...

Now that variant is simply the best we can over hope for because we have announced to the world that we accept it! bluff or no bluff they are IDIOTS!! now the the process started to erase the 16 ray sun (after the NATO veto they announced they would start using it again, which they did symbolically)...

The symbol of the Macedonians needs to be used all the time, not as a barganing chip that can be tossed away in return of something, depending which way the wind blows.

No doubt these are negotiations, they are negotiation exactly HOW Macedonian we are... revolting

[George S.]

Volk name me a country besides macedonia that's ready to compromise on it's name & ready & willing to capitulate.Also they have capitulated allready on our flag.What a pushover we are volk giving in so easily to the greeks.Rather than stand up to these bullies we just give in.HOw crazy is that.You know if we took a tougher stand greece may back off instead of interfeering evey step of the way.Also the biggest problem that i see is the macedonian side without prompting was ready & proposed a name change itself Why???

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonia is on the path of bluffing and the current government is doing all it can to follow that path. They are not traitors.

This isn't a game of poker you fool. They are 'fyromian' traitors, and while that title is also worthy of yourself, I consider you more a jest than anything else.

[Volk]

Volk name me a country besides macedonia that's ready to compromise on it's name & ready & willing to capitulate.Also they have capitulated allready on our flag.What a pushover we are volk giving in so easily to the greeks.Rather than stand up to these bullies we just give in.HOw crazy is that.You know if we took a tougher stand greece may back off instead of interfeering evey step of the way.Also the biggest problem that i see is the macedonian side without prompting was ready & proposed a name change itself Why???

George I dont disagree, I understand you only recently learned of what the 'accord' actually meant.

I suggest you also brush up on the situation in Macedonia when it was accepted. Macedonia was and is under an enormous amount of pressure, this should only harden the people not force them into national suicide.

Either we survive as Macedonians or die, I know my choice

[George S.]

Volk you seem to advocate the fyromian status of don't rock the boatYou seem to think that if you had a choice you'd rather die if you are not a macedonian?Also what possible pressure was macedonia to sign away their rights in an agreement called the interim accord.Show's you are totally ignorant of what went on volk you need educating yourself,
where were you when they signed the document why didn't you protest about it.

[Vangelovski]

George I dont disagree, I understand you only recently learned of what the 'accord' actually meant.

I suggest you also brush up on the situation in Macedonia when it was accepted. Macedonia was and is under an enormous amount of pressure, this should only harden the people not force them into national suicide.

Either we survive as Macedonians or die, I know my choice

Volk, you either still have not realised what the Interim Accord is or you are just a vassal lapdog. I wouldn't be giving George S any advice on what to 'brush' up on until you have 'brushed' up on it yourself.