International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Vangelovski]

But on a serious note the questions posed are real world situations and your answers on how you would address them in real world terms would clarify your position…we will just tell them to call us Macedonia. You make it sound so simple so it shouldn’t be to hard for you to give practical real world answers.

My questions are not limited to any one poster. Anyone who thinks they have the answers can tell the forum their real world solutions.

Can everyone just read this one more time - I'd like the stupidity of the comments to really sink in..."we can't just tell them to call us Macedonia"...maybe we'll need to speak to the Internationa Country Naming Authority* and get some advice on that.

* There is no such thing as the Internationa Country Naming Authority

[Big Bad Sven]

Can everyone just read this one more time - I'd like the stupidity of the comments to really sink in..."we can't just tell them to call us Macedonia"...maybe we'll need to speak to the Internationa Country Naming Authority* and get some advice on that.

* There is no such thing as the Internationa Country Naming Authority

Heaven forbid that the macedonians should have the right of deciding what their flag should be or what their country should be called!

Instead of letting the people decide in a fair and democratic manner, lets just let our racist neighbors and other foreign countries with agendas do the thinking for us. Lets continue the cycle of lowering our selves voluntarily into slaves and 2nd class citizens of the world, while every other country in the world enjoys freedom and the ability to change things in their home.

The unfortunate fact is the above is what has happened to macedonia and is still happening.

Im the mean time we have people like Ozimak who are calculating what second place or "next best" option is more profitable when macedonia is bent over a barrel.

Ozimak the macedonians have been doing the stupid tactic of accepting mediocrity in hopes of making its neighbors happy, but they have always got the short end of the stick. How about for once the macedonians do what is best for them and its neighbors are left with the burden of dealing with it?

Why cant the macedonians decide what the name of their country is or what their flag should be? What makes the macedonians a lesser people compared to other peoples in the world who can dictate what happens in their own country?

[Risto the Great]

* There is no such thing as the International Country Naming Authority

Actually, there is. It is actually Greece and only Macedonians are stupid enough to listen to them.

[indigen]

Indigen,

I'm not too fond of Janev's approach. Although it may provide us with the desired 'end', it does so in a manner that contradicts our national sovereignty.

I too prefer "your solution", which has always been my preference and long before I knew you existed. It simply makes LOGICAL SENSE and FEELS like a natural law of JUSTICE to me!

Like all other countries that have changed their names at the UN and other international organisations, I think a simple diplomatic note should suffice.

I AGREE!

Anything beyond Macedonia informing them of our state name 'Macedonia', as opposed to 'FYROM', through a diplomatic note would be tantamount to asking for permission to use our state name.

Agreed! But still, Igor Janev, though I object to his use of offensive terminology such as "Constitutional Name", has been given a lot of time and promotion by a lot of patriots, e.g. Slavko Mangovski (via Makedonsko Sonce and other media outlets), and his proposed solution is seen as good alternative to the current capitulations and deconstruction agendas that are in play.

The following Google Search Terms will deliver some relevant info: марјан попески macedoniantruth.org

Have a look at what Popeski is saying, i.e. his rationale (which I, in my limited capacity to understand such legal solutions, think has good merit on certain points) for his proposed solution or resolution to the "name issue", and see what you think of it.

Грчка лажга

Козите во градината Македонија се оние од „Генекс“. Во левицата, сите се такви. Но видете колку ги има во десницата. Тие се оние што се обидуваат да и се додворат на Европа, сметајќи дека е неморална како нив, и прво со Привремената согласност 1995 година, а сега со тужбата, ја нудат Македонија како курбан за нивните филистерски потреби и навики

[…..]

Едо Равникар („УДБОМАФИЈА“, Љубљана, 1994), вели дека откако напишал за „Генекс“ во контекст на УДБОМАФИЈАТА, застанал и чекал да почнат да пливаат лешеви. Но дури после му станало јасно дека народот не знае што е „Генекс“ (удбашка фирма). Така и мене ми стана јасно дека народот не знае што е иус цогенс. Аристотел вели дека човекот размислува во слики („Спис за душата“). Па еве една слика за иус цогенс. Грк и Македонец се договараат, Гркот да му даде милион долари на Македонецот. Овој има 15 години да ужива во трошењето и потоа треба да се обеси. Македонецот се изнауживал 15 години, ги потрошил сите пари, дури направил и солидна мала фирма што му носела пристојни приходи. Бидејќи не се обесил, Гркот го потсетил на договорената обврска. Овој не сакал да се обеси. Гркот не може да го тужи и да бара судот да му наложи да се обеси. Доколку ја направи таа глупост, тој ќе биде обвинет за кривично дело поттикнување самоубиство и ќе заврши во затвор.

Така и Македонија: иако со Привремената согласност е договорено да се обеси (компромис), правото на самоопределување е иус цогенс и има дејство ерга омнес (спрема сите), па како што судот ќе ја одбие тужбата на Гркот што дал милион долари за самоубиство и ќе биде ставен во затвор, така и Грција, доколку ја тужи Македонија за да си го смени името, ќе биде одбиена.

[…..]

Значи козите во градината Македонија се оние од „Генекс“. Во левицата, сите се такви. Но видете колку ги има во десницата. Тие се оние што се обидуваат да и се додворат на Европа, сметајќи дека е неморална како нив, и прво со Привремената согласност 1995 година, а сега со тужбата, ја нудат Македонија како курбан за нивните филистерски потреби и навики. Во оваа нехигиенска постапка, оние од „Генекс“ внесоа млади луѓе, чија македонска волја не е оштетена, но се ставени во заблуда со лажгата.
И за крај: најкратко логички да го докажам овој текст.

Тужбата на Владата ја крши логичната доследност во форма на игноратио еленцхи (непознавање на спорната точка). Оваа грешка ја прават оние што немаат чувство за тоа што е најважно. Владата смета дека најважно е Грција да не ја попречува Македонија во зачленувањето. Јас сметам дека најважно е иус цогенс. Доколку сум во право дека правото на самоопределување важи ерга омнес, тоа значи по пресудата на Меѓународниот суд на правдата ќе мора и членките на ЕУ да нé признат како и оние 129 држави.

Авторот е адвокат и судски преведувач

Автор: Марјан Попески

http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=1241191437&id=13&prilog=0&setIzdanie=22188

For fair use only.


NB: ius cogens (Google search result)
http://www.macrofox.com/eng/d/ius-cogens/ius-cogens.htm

[fyrOM]

Does anyone seriously believe this nonsensical stupidity needs a response?

Still playing the man and not the ball and thinking who cares the ball stops moving one way or another is a slippery slope to rhetoric and obsolescence.

Did anybody bother to do the walkthrough questions or do you prefer to avoid them with your repetitive We Have Rights chant because you have no answer to them or you think they are irrelevant even though they are based on real world situations. You say bad government I say what would you do differently. The silence is defending but for the crickets chirping their repetitive chants.

You remind me of idealistic Uni students at the protest rally yet when it come to the real world idealism goes out the window…just look at Natasha Stott Despoja who as leader of the Democrats…come on those of you from South Australia that’s where the Democrats started and Natasha is from SA so you should know the story better than anyone…stuck up all her idealistic Uni version views of the world as the policies of the Democratic party and got less than 2 votes anywhere in the country and the party founded on pragmatic principles and Keep the Bustards Honest and not idealism like the greens totally collapsed folded and disappeared from the political landscape leaving both the majors to do whatever the F they wanted…and isn’t Australia a better place for that…sarcastically...oh and where are the dickhead greens now...farrrrrk running the country.

Can everyone just read this one more time - I'd like the stupidity of the comments to really sink in..."we can't just tell them to call us Macedonia"...maybe we'll need to speak to the Internationa Country Naming Authority* and get some advice on that.

* There is no such thing as the Internationa Country Naming Authority

The worlds a little different today…might I add because of the current governments efforts whom you like to vilify…so think back 5 or more years…the more the better… and now you are Prime Minister X and in your wisdom send a short diplomatic note to the world We are called Macedonia no permission asked for. We the world say go and stuff yourself we do not recognise your name and will call you fyrom…what ya gonna do about it biiiatch.

There’s your first real world question.

Oh I know chant We Have Rights.

[fyrOM]

Greece claims to be ready for public hearing before the Court in The Hague

http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=8646461B5AAF194BBD60F2A484A640F5

Greece is very well prepared for the upcoming public hearing before the International Court of Justice in The Hague, which begins on 21 March and will present that, among other things, Macedonia is one that violated the Interim Accord of 1995.

This was stated yesterday a spokesman for the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs Grigoris Delavekouras Speaking to reporters in Athens.

He refrained from predictions of the outcome of the process and whether it would affect negotiations on the issue in the UN framework, but that after starting the procedure to see how the process will proceed and where to lead.

- Negotiations are a product of the process that leads in the UN framework, the product of the Interim Agreement, which FYROM breaks and whenever given the chance. You need to do to be able within the UN to reach a solution, said Delavekouras.

Asked in 2008 why Greece did not accept the proposal from the Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)), Delavekouras said that the answer is contained in the statement of Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski.

- The challenge is to find a solution today and now. Greece looks to the future. We want to reach a decision on the name issue and we want to help pristapuavnjeto the countries in the EU and NATO, said Delavekouras.

The public hearing before the International Court of Justice in The Hague upon the complaint of Macedonia against Greece for violating the Temporary bilateral agreement with obstruction of Macedonian accession to NATO at the Bucharest Summit will be held from 21 to 30 March this year.

The hearing, according to court will be open to the public and will take place in two stages. In the first 21 and March 22 their arguments before judges will explain the Macedonian side, and 24 and March 25 counter-arguments to announce the Greek representatives. In the second phase of the March 28 team that will represent Macedonia will have the opportunity to respond orally to the defense of Greece and public hearing will be completed on 30 March with the final word on the Greek side.

Under the current practice of the Court ruling is expected to be taken up for six months or until the end of the year. Judgments are final and legally binding, but their implementation is responsible and respect the Security Council of UN.

Macedonia has filed a lawsuit against Greece at the Court at The Hague on November 17, 2008 stating that Athens blocking Macedonia's membership of NATO violated Article 11 of Temporary bilateral agreement in 1995. The International Court of Justice is required to bring Greece to honor its obligations under the Interim Agreement, which binds the two countries.

[makedonin]

Interesting real world question OziMak.

I really want to read the answer.

[fyrOM]

So do I…hopefully there will be one to this question but more importantly the others.

In my opinion before pulling out of anything the government would need to send the army onto the streets and declare martial law. I think the indication are it is unlikely to come to anything like this but it should Never be ruled out.

[George S.]

Well all i can say greece is ready with the lies & bs.Can you imagine it they are going to say that they never vetoed macedonia it was member states.Then it has a host of other bs to counteract macedonia's stand.OM i hope when greece loses the case that there are widespread riots in the street in athens & greece & fires around.

[Risto the Great]

You remind me of idealistic Uni students at the protest rally yet when it come to the real world idealism goes out the window…

Uni students have been known to start revolutions and oust governments OM.

The worlds a little different today…might I add because of the current governments efforts whom you like to vilify…so think back 5 or more years…the more the better… and now you are Prime Minister X and in your wisdom send a short diplomatic note to the world We are called Macedonia no permission asked for. We the world say go and stuff yourself we do not recognise your name and will call you fyrom…what ya gonna do about it biiiatch.

There’s your first real world question.

Oh I know chant We Have Rights.

You don't have rights OM. Because clearly you don't believe you deserve them. It stems from a deep rooted slave mentality that probably stems from your family roots over the last 500 years. You should really try to wash it off mate. It smells awful.

In case you feel that you have lost your sense of direction, having had your head up Gruevski's arse for so long, Macedonia apparently has the support of 130 countries. They sound like trade partners to me. But of course, they will only call us Macedonia only if Macedonia wants to be called Macedonia.

Just because you don't want to affirm your Macedonian identity in case your ajvar stops selling in Slavakia, it does not mean every nation, including Macedonia has to suffer from your apologist outlook.

Thanks for the scare campaign. I'm not buying it nor lying in it.

Oh, and if a country wants call me "FYROM biaaatch" .... I would think they are quite rude. But thanks for highlighting the piss weak perspective that is a cancer to Macedonia presently.

[Bill77]

The worlds a little different today…might I add because of the current governments efforts whom you like to vilify…so think back 5 or more years…the more the better… and now you are Prime Minister X and in your wisdom send a short diplomatic note to the world We are called Macedonia no permission asked for. We the world say go and stuff yourself we do not recognise your name and will call you fyrom…what ya gonna do about it biiiatch.

So much for this example. Because these short diplomatic notes to the world has happened and 132 countries later, We are no longer fyrom. See how easy it is when you stick to your guns?

[George S.]

Dear RTG i have to agree with you that it's the slave mentality.Originally we wanted freedom with uprisings & we gave up,we lost the will to fight.Under yugoslavia we did not have much macedonian consciosness as we were taught to take glory in our slavic roots.Also after decades of greek interfeering plus with their friendly serbs they succeeded in keeping the macedonians down.Roday no one has the will to fight anymore they just give up & compromise & capitulate.Take the flag situation & now the name it is a forgone conclusion because of our state of mind.If we didn't ask the world to recognize us by our constitutional name they would recognize us as fyrom.WE tend to forget that it'swar & greece is waging a behind the scenes convincing other countries that they should recognize us only as fyrom.We have to stop negotiations as we are not going to compromise our name.

[Vangelovski]

Why would the "world" turn around and say "we don't care FYROM Biaarch"?

Are you on your bongs again OM?

Examples of diplomatic notes on this very subject from other states changing their names were provided in a previous thread, which I will now try and track down. I think OM was participating on that thread and is now pretending that he is unaware of standard international practice.

[indigen]

Uni students have been known to start revolutions and oust governments OM.

Not only UNI STUDENTS but EVEN SCHOOL STUDENTS have started revolutions, see below.

16 June 1976 Student Uprising in Soweto
Part 2: Students organize a protest

By Alistair Boddy-Evans

< Prev Part 1: Background to the uprising >

When the 1976 school year started, many teachers refused to teach in Afrikaans. But generally students were disparaging of the attitude of their teachers and parents. One student wrote to The World newspaper: "Our parents are prepared to suffer under the white man's rule. They have been living for years under these laws and they have become immune to them. But we strongly refuse to swallow an education that is designed to make us slaves in the country of our birth."

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/apartheid/a/Soweto-Uprising-Pt2.htm

[fyrOM]

Uni students have been known to start revolutions and oust governments OM.




You don't have rights OM. Because clearly you don't believe you deserve them. It stems from a deep rooted slave mentality that probably stems from your family roots over the last 500 years. You should really try to wash it off mate. It smells awful.



Just because you don't want to affirm your Macedonian identity in case your ajvar stops selling in Slavakia, it does not mean every nation, including Macedonia has to suffer from your apologist outlook.

You love ignoring the main point and tinkering around the edges and dragging the focus away to look like you have said something but in reality have said nothing.

How many of those 130 odd countries recognized Macedonia during both terms of the current government and how much chasing have they done as apposed to the earlier countries that would sign up at the drop of a hat…yeah the governments action really look like that of a traitor.

Also re read your collective earlier posts...yours and others...all doom and gloom we’ve lost its all over ect. By the sound of you lot one would think you just found out the name change has actually happened and not just a historic proposal but also one that was rejected.

I’ve always said I didn’t take much notice of Macedonian issues in the past so was not upto the minute when the IA as it was happening but know it as a historical event. From my understanding of it and the events of the time…and this is something I have written in a past thread…it looked like a line ball decision with neither path being brilliant but if I were to err on the side of caution I would say NO because a blow up when everything is in disrepair…unless you absolutely don’t have the firepower for it…is better than spending ages fixing up the country only to blow it up again and risking your enemies gaining strength over that time. But the current government inherited this condition and can only begin to work from where the situation is upto.

So much for this example. Because these short diplomatic notes to the world has happened and 132 countries later, We are no longer fyrom. See how easy it is when you stick to your guns?

What sticking to your guns are you talking about…you and others have been bitching and moaning how the government has surrendered the name its all lost we have no genuine politicians ect.

I was the only one saying so what if the proposal was made back then it does not mean all is lost.

Examples of diplomatic notes on this very subject from other states changing their names were provided in a previous thread, which I will now try and track down. I think OM was participating on that thread and is now pretending that he is unaware of standard international practice.

Is the main point whether or not I know the correct syntax on a simple diplomatic note or even if I know what one looks like…maybe you introduced it on a thread who knows…its irrelevant to the main point that Macedonia says This is my name and world say we don’t accept and we will call you fyrom…then what.

Just because you say I want doesn’t mean instantly you get because if that were the case we wouldn’t be discussing this and Macedonia would be in the un eu nato and wherever else as Macedonia so your constant repeating we should just tell them this is our name is sounding very hollow particularly when you don’t address the then what issues…where does Macedonia stand with the eu nato un the Albanians the subsidies china ect. You address nothing else in you posts but for just tell them we are called Macedonia.

If your aim is just to create a rallying chant only then that’s one thing but if you are going to put yourself up as a thinking forum then hows about addressing the associated issues or is it just easier to avoid those questions and keep chanting.

Why would the "world" turn around and say "we don't care FYROM Biaarch"?

You as why would the world reject your name. Have they not done this already and more so 20 years ago. What is it that you think compels them to recognise you…some magical law. Yeah they have some but not in your case…you are robbing someone’s history and identity don’t you know so we wont just let you have that name.

Not only UNI STUDENTS but EVEN SCHOOL STUDENTS have started revolutions, see below.

Uni students and high school student start revolutions is irrelevant to the point I was making…uni students are morons who still see most issues in black and white and the students are the dogs bodies and older brains usually manipulate them into action and if left on their own like Natasha their idealized views can run a successful party into the ground…that you over simplify the situation like uni students and hows about addressing some of the grey areas.