Financial Crisis in Greece

[Daskalot]

Daskalot, you cant go around pissing in someone else's backyard.
It may be the Balkans but we have soverign nations in the balkans and they should be respected. This is not 1913, this is 2012 the war is long over and some realities just have to be respected. Nobody in Greece is asking for these rights, its usually foreigners from other countries that ask on their behalf and their motives are always less than sincere.
Its one thing recognizing Macedonians exist its another recognizing a minority under a collective status. Each individual is guaranteed basic freedoms as an individual, not because they belong to a special group. What I suggested is that if tommorrow the name dispute and identity can be resolved with an official claim that they dont acknowledge a minority in a neighboring country dont you think that would be a good thing ? Im not saying that would work, but just suggested it may be a good start.

Why?
The problem is very simple, you took something that was not yours to begin with.
This is why you do not want any minorities on what is today Greek territory. Your claim on the part of Macedonia that you annexed is reduced if there is a Macedonian minority still living there 100 years after the annexation, the World will ask how and why?
Then we get to tell our story.
The World has now seen the real face of the Greek nation, a nation of corruption and lies.
The World will ask what else do the thieves and moneygrabbers hide from the world?
Just wait and see, time is on our side, your time is pretty much up.

[Voltron]

Why?
The problem is very simple, you took something that was not yours to begin with.
This is why you do not want any minorities on what is today Greek territory. Your claim on the part of Macedonia that you annexed is reduced if there is a Macedonian minority still living there 100 years after the annexation, the World will ask how and why?
Then we get to tell our story.
The World has now seen the real face of the Greek nation, a nation of corruption and lies.
The World will ask what else do the thieves and moneygrabbers hide from the world?
Just wait and see, time is on our side, your time is pretty much up.

What we took was up for grabs. What are you going to tell the world ? That you lost a war ? Step in line Daskalot, Im still waiting for my rain check in Asia Minor.

[TojSum]

Daskalot, you cant go around pissing in someone else's backyard.
It may be the Balkans but we have soverign nations in the balkans and they should be respected. This is not 1913, this is 2012 the war is long over and some realities just have to be respected. Nobody in Greece is asking for these rights, its usually foreigners from other countries that ask on their behalf and their motives are always less than sincere.
Its one thing recognizing Macedonians exist its another recognizing a minority under a collective status. Each individual is guaranteed basic freedoms as an individual, not because they belong to a special group. What I suggested is that if tommorrow the name dispute and identity can be resolved with an official claim that they dont acknowledge a minority in a neighboring country dont you think that would be a good thing ? Im not saying that would work, but just suggested it may be a good start.

You are absolutely right, it’s not 1913 it is 2012 and you have to respect reality of existing Macedonian minority in Greece. Please don’t deny existence of this minority because it very well documented and they are not foreigners, they were always been there on that land. Sorry about this but i must say that you are lying when you say that nobody asking these rights. This guys asking for many years this rights:

http://www.florina.org/

Report of United Nations - Report of the independent expert on Minority issues, Gay McDougall Mission to greece:

http://www.florina.org/news/2009/march05_e.pdf

Other reports about constant braking of Macedonian minority in greece rights here:

http://www.florina.org/reports.asp

Your theory of “each individual is guaranteed basic freedoms as an individual, not because they belong to a special group” is not working because for some individuals its forbidden to speak on there on language or any other activity which is connected to there on identity.

Examples:

European Court Trial Against Greece
Macedonians win court case against Greece.
Hristo Sideropoulos, along with several other founders of the Macedonian Cultural Centre in Lerin, have initiated a court case against the Greek government that took place at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg on Tuesday, March 24, 1998 at 3:00pm. A decision was reached on July 10, 1998.
The Macedonians have been struggling to open this cultural centre since 1990, but the Greek government has done everything in its power to prevent this. According to the European Convention Article 11:
"Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and join trade unions for his interests."
The Document of the Copenhagen meeting of the CSCE-HD Section 4 Article 32 (6) states:
"Persons belonging to national minorities have the right to establish and maintain organizations or associations within their country and to participate in international non-governmental organizations."
Instead of abiding by these international human rights conventions, Greece illegally denies the Macedonians the right to establish the Macedonian Cultural Centre.

2. 1,497 Macedonian place-names in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1926.
English Journalist V. Hild reveals, "The Greeks do not only persecute living Slavs (Macedonians)..., but they even persecute dead ones. They do not leave them in peace even in the graves. They erase the Slavonic inscriptions on the headstones, remove the bones and burn them."

3. Year 1990
CSCE COPENHAGEN CONFERENCE ON THE HUMAN DIMENSION, to which Greece is a signatory, states in ARTICLE 32: "Persons belonging to national minorities have the right freely to express, preserve, and develop their ethnic, cultural, linguistic, or religious identity and to maintain and develop their culture in all its aspects, free of any attempts as assimilation against their will". ARTICLE 33: "Participating states will protest the ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious identity of national minorities...and create conditions for the promotion of that identity".

GREEK HIGH COURT DECISION 19, refuses registration of "CENTER FOR MACEDONIAN CULTURE" in Florina. Appeal is turned down by High Appeals Court, in Salonika. Further appeal dismissed by Supreme Administrative Council of Greece in Athens.

I have thousands of the them but i think this is enough.

And in the end, this sentence is not even worth to be commented:
Its one thing recognizing Macedonians exist its another recognizing a minority under a collective status.

[Voltron]

All of them are foreign interference except Florina group.
Gay McDougal ? She probably wouldnt know the difference between Florina and Iraklio Crete.

I didnt say Macedonians were foreign, what I said is that the initiatives are usually encouraged by outside groups. If people do not want to identify themselves as Greek citizens then they have every opportunity to pack up their bags and become citizens of their native countries. They live in Greece now and unless another war happens nothing is going to change this. I cannot see anything good coming out of minority groups, nothing at all.

And in the end, this sentence is not even worth to be commented:
Its one thing recognizing Macedonians exist its another recognizing a minority under a collective status.

If you cant see the difference than your right, its not worth commenting.
You are entitled to believe in minority groups, doesnt mean we have to.
After all, it is our country not yours. You dont see me on Turkish forums harping on Greek minorities.

[Brian]

After all, it is our country not yours.

Ehh....just a little bit longer.
Maybe the new owners will recognise minorities, afterall the old owner (the Turks) did.

Greece is for Sale

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20356/1/

17 February 2012
Greece has de-facto lost its independence since 2008 when Goldman Sachs (un)intentionally released confidential data that Athens has manipulated their financial statements for the last 20 years. Goldman Sachs revealed Greece owed hundreds of billions of euros.
A unison action by world's largest privately owned banks (IMF, ECB) followed.

The IMF/ECB/EU blackmailed Athens to either accept austerity measures or they will let them become insolvent. Though Athens has been insolvent since the 1800's, they accepted the austerity measures: slashing salaries, budgets, pensions, firing thousands of employees, selling state owned land, properties, islands, ports.

All of this resulted in 23% unemployment, 40% increase in suicide rates, 50% unemployment for people younger than 26, while 30% of all companies have said they may not be able to make payroll.

Chile and Argentina in the 1990's and Portugal two years ago showed austerity measures never ever work. In fact, they are not meant to work!

Austerity measures are meant to make a country extremely weak, to a point where it can no longer function and depends on outside help.

Greece has already reached that point, las quarter its economy declined 7%. The last few days the IMF and ECB will remove Greece from life support by indebting them further. It's interesting if not paradoxical, more money are lended and debt is further increased to someone who can't return the original money it owed?! That's the idea, to create such massive debt that Athens won't be able to pay it back in 500 years and will put islands and property owned by the state (the people), into the hands of wealthy Germans and EU Bankers who will turn those islands into "retirement getaways" for themselves and their clients.

Of course, all of this will go at bargain prices, fire sale!

IMF already scolded Athens that to get the next bailout they must put up on the market more state owned land and islands. Bingo!

To this end, the IMF has their own man in charge, Papademos, ex Goldman Sachs employee. Papandreou's fall and Papademos' (s)election was not accidental.

Everyone in the Greek Government is owned by the banksters.
Whether or not our southern neighbor pays their debts (zero chance), foreign companies and nations understand that the Government in Athens is now powerless, so in the future they will acquire viable assets and will run parts of the country by themselves.

Greece in the past was a vacation getaway, soon it will be a private vacation getaway.

And Macedonia wants to join the EU because....?

Maybe..."Everyone in the Greek (read Macedonian) Government is owned by the banksters."

[Brian]

Greeks rage at loss of Sovereignty...

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20362/46/

(Does that mean broke?)

17 February 2012
Greek leaders express frustration and anger at the rapid erosion of their country's sovereignty by German and eurozone leaders, but see no alternative but to accept quasi-colonial control in return for the €130bn (£110bn) rescue package.

Greece's capacity to take the important decisions on its future is becoming extremely limited as decision-making on such matters as the choice of the Greek prime minister, the date for the next general election and the supervision of the expenditure of the bailout shifts to Berlin and Brussels. Greeks are now about to be hit by the sixth austerity package in five years.

Acrimony reached a new peak in the last few days, as the German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble expressed doubts about Greece sticking to its promises and saying its appetite for foreign funds was like "a bottomless pit".

"Who is Mr Schaeuble to insult Greece?" the Greek President Karolos Papoulias said furiously. He berated other eurozone critics, asking: "Who are the Dutch? Who are the Finnish?" But, despite openly expressed hostility, Greek political leaders and the public see little alternative but to submit. (Your new masters/owners) George Tzogopoulos, of the Bodossakis, Foundation think tank, an expert on Greek public opinion and its response to the financial crisis, said that people's attitudes are more realistic on the question of meeting the demands of the Troika – the EU, European Central Bank and IMF – than they were four months ago.

An opinion poll a week ago showed that the EU-imposed technocratic Prime Minister Lucas Papademos has 45 per cent support. He said that Antonis Samaras, the conservative leader likely to be the next prime minister, has "totally changed his aggressive behaviour towards the Troika since June". Mr Samaras signed a letter promising to implement the rescue-package terms earlier this week.

What the Greek people didn't realise was the country was sold decades ago and all their salaries and benefits were just instalment payments.

[Voltron]

Maybe the new owners will recognise minorities, afterall the old owner (the Turks) did.

Yeah, thats because they taxed the crap out of them
Hey, wait a minute... I think you got something there lol

[Daskalot]

All of them are foreign interference except Florina group.
Gay McDougal ? She probably wouldnt know the difference between Florina and Iraklio Crete.

I didnt say Macedonians were foreign, what I said is that the initiatives are usually encouraged by outside groups. If people do not want to identify themselves as Greek citizens then they have every opportunity to pack up their bags and become citizens of their native countries. They live in Greece now and unless another war happens nothing is going to change this. I cannot see anything good coming out of minority groups, nothing at all.



If you cant see the difference than your right, its not worth commenting.
You are entitled to believe in minority groups, doesnt mean we have to.
After all, it is our country not yours. You dont see me on Turkish forums harping on Greek minorities.

Their native country you say? So where do you suggest the native Americans turn to then? Or the Aboriginals of Australia?
The Macedonians in Greece live in their native land, their land was annexed by Greece in the same manner as North America was and Australia was by Europeans some centuries ago.
Thus Macedonians living in the Pirin region in Bulgaria or in the three Macedonias within Greek borders or in the Mala Prespa region in Albania or in the Republic, are living in their native land of Macedonia.
Do you understand this?

[George S.]

almir what makes you sure that the fighting was about rights in 2001.It was a pretext to rights from a sovereign country.Just go & see how other countries are run by majorities.What rights did you have missing except that you wanted to secede.You wanted to do your own thing.It's not your country & you are not indigenous to the land.Macedonia is primarily the fatherland of its macedonian people.To the extent you don't identify as a macedonian ctizen.You should go some place else.I don't think modern albania would acccept you because i know your whole history.So you think you can reside in macedonia & cause havoc.Well news for you you keep pushing for a seperate state & we will decimate you no quibles about it.Macedonians are fed up with your antics.
You can't keep going & not show respect,you will see that macedonian patience is wearing really thin.

[George S.]

Voltron where does it say that greece has a monopoly on the macedonian name or do you beleive their propaganda it's all greek to you.Since when your govt has tried to find a mutually acceptable name.The name issue shouldn't be an issue after all what has greece got to fear from macedonia.It's all a pretext to deviate from greece's real woes.Greece is the only one that say's it has a problem with the name.But hey macedonia is a constitutional name of a country & greece only has a name of a province which is totally different/If that's the case then there are words of places etc all over the world using the name macedonia.Greece is merely hiding it's real intentions & that is to destroy macedonia & any references to it.What has greece got to hide that in 1913 it illegalle annexed macedonian lands.That it doesn't have any indigenous people called macedonian apart from the endopi who are a minority.Their only claim is that resettlers bought in the 1920's prosefeges from turkey & they are saying they are greek macedonians.There is no such thing as greek macedonians as previously there was only macedonians & greeks only formed 10% of the population.
Voltron after all this time you really haven't learned anything after we have given you ample evidence that the greeks only want to destroy macedonia & the real issues are swept under the carpet.Macedonia doesn't have a problem with the name greece apparently does.But when one sees what is going on greece is doing it for a reason & doesn't have a problem.It needs to live with it's neighbour show recognition & fully respect it's name.What could be fairer than that.Please look at your history with real evidence & you'll see that i'm right greece only want's to monopolise the name llike it did with the symbols.

[George S.]

Voltron where does it say that greece has a monopoly on the macedonian name or do you beleive their propaganda it's all greek to you.Since when your govt has tried to find a mutually acceptable name.The name issue shouldn't be an issue after all what has greece got to fear from macedonia.It's all a pretext to deviate from greece's real woes.Greece is the only one that say's it has a problem with the name.But hey macedonia is a constitutional name of a country & greece only has a name of a province which is totally different/If that's the case then there are words of places etc all over the world using the name macedonia.Greece is merely hiding it's real intentions & that is to destroy macedonia & any references to it.What has greece got to hide that in 1913 it illegally annexed macedonian lands.That it doesn't have any indigenous people called macedonian apart from the endopi who are a minority.Their only claim is that resettlers bought in the 1920's prosefeges from turkey & they are saying they are greek macedonians.There is no such thing as greek macedonians as previously there was only macedonians & greeks only formed 10% of the population.
Voltron after all this time you really haven't learned anything after we have given you ample evidence that the greeks only want to destroy macedonia & the real issues are swept under the carpet.Macedonia doesn't have a problem with the name greece apparently does.But when one sees what is going on greece is doing it for a reason & doesn't have a problem.It needs to live with it's neighbour show recognition & fully respect it's name.What could be fairer than that.Please look at your history with real evidence & you'll see that i'm right greece only want's to monopolise the name llike it did with the symbols.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thieves loot Greece's Ancient Olympia museum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17071934

Armed robbers have stolen dozens of artefacts from a Greek museum dedicated to the history of the early Olympics.

Two masked men smashed display cabinets and took more than 60 objects after overpowering a guard at the museum in Olympia, officials said.

The town's mayor said the items, mostly bronze and clay statuettes, were of "incalculable" value.

Culture Minister Pavlos Geroulanos has tendered his resignation, but it has so far not been accepted.

He visited the site which is on a forested hilltop in western Greece.

The BBC's Mark Lowen in Olympia says the robbery - the second major museum theft this year - raises fresh questions about museum security.

"Smashed windows"

The armed thieves are reported to have entered the Museum of the History of the Olympic Games in Antiquity at 07:30 local time on Friday (05:30 GMT) and demanded that a female employee hand over various objects.

When the employee refused, she was tied up and gagged.

Olympia Mayor Thymios Kotzias said the robbers - one of whom had a gun - targeted the guard during a shift change, after having already knocked out the alarm.

"We must wait and see what the local archaeology supervisor will say, but the items were of incalculable value."

Pantelis Kapsis, a spokesman for the Ministry of State and Government, told the BBC some items had also been damaged in the raid.

"Because of the way they smashed the windows everything within the display windows was shaken. so some had shattered a bit, so we don't know exactly what was taken."

The town is home to two museums - the Archaeological Museum of Olympia, which contains some of Greece's most valuables treasures from the temples of Ancient Olympia - and the smaller Olympics museum, which is reported to be less well-guarded.

Hundreds of thousands visit Olympia - the birthplace of the ancient Olympic Games - every year.

Greece's culture ministry, like most state departments, has seen its budget cut as part of austerity measures imposed by the government.

In January, a Picasso painting, given by the artist himself, was stolen from the Athens National Gallery, along with a Mondrian painting and a sketch by Italian artist Guglielmo Caccia.

A unionist with the culture minister said museums nationwide are short of some 1,500 guards, after two years of layoffs imposed by the government, according to AFP.

"All museums have suffered cuts, both in guards and archaeologists, the staff are no longer enough to operate at full shifts," said Ioanna Frangou, general secretary of the union of short-term culture ministry staff.

[TojSum]

All of them are foreign interference except Florina group.

No, they are not foreign interference they are legal European and UN institution and Greece like member of EU and UN have to respect them or if you want i can put it like this: YOU ARE IN THE UN and EU so this institutions are not foreign for you.

Gay McDougal ? She probably wouldnt know the difference between Florina and Iraklio Crete.

But she knows very well what kind of people lives there and what kind of rights they don’t have.

I didnt say Macedonians were foreign, what I said is that the initiatives are usually encouraged by outside groups.

I wish this to be truth but it’s not. They are doing everything by themselves.

If people do not want to identify themselves as Greek citizens then they have every opportunity to pack up their bags and become citizens of their native countries. They live in Greece now and unless another war happens nothing is going to change this. I cannot see anything good coming out of minority groups, nothing at all.

Now you are spinning a little bit, the identity doesn’t have anything with Greek citizenship, i can identify myself like a let’s say Argentinean and still a can have Greek citizenship (or maybe i don’t ??? i must be Greek even if I’m Argentinean???). Maybe it’s not good with minority groups but like you said now is year 2012 (not 1913) and you have to recognized them. And thank you for admitting (indirectly) your state assimilation politics (I don’t want to use the term neo-nazi).

If you cant see the difference than your right, its not worth commenting.
You are entitled to believe in minority groups, doesnt mean we have to.

And we should give up from our brothers because you don’t have to believe in minorities???

After all, it is our country not yours. You dont see me on Turkish forums harping on Greek minorities .

After all they are our brothers not yours and we will never give up from them.
No i don’t see you on Turkish forum, i see how you harping against Macedonian minorities on Macedonian forum.

[Voltron]

Their native country you say? So where do you suggest the native Americans turn to then? Or the Aboriginals of Australia?

Native Americans, Aboriginals, Amazonian tribes, Kalash, etc. dont have countries of their own. In this case only I support "minority" status. Those are exceptions to the rule.

[Voltron]

No, they are not foreign interference they are legal European and UN institution and Greece like member of EU and UN have to respect them or if you want i can put it like this: YOU ARE IN THE UN and EU so this institutions are not foreign for you.

TojSum, lets not play with words here. They are foreign interference no matter what label you use. The UN is comprised of a limited amount of permanent members usually Superpowers. EU today is mostly Germany and not anybody else.

Now you are spinning a little bit, the identity doesn’t have anything with Greek citizenship, i can identify myself like a let’s say Argentinean and still a can have Greek citizenship (or maybe i don’t ??? i must be Greek even if I’m Argentinean???). Maybe it’s not good with minority groups but like you said now is year 2012 (not 1913) and you have to recognized them. And thank you for admitting (indirectly) your state assimilation politics (I don’t want to use the term neo-nazi).

You still dont get it, nobody is stopping you on being who you want to be. That decision is your and yours only. Dont get confused by citizenship and ethnos, I am not implying that by being a Greek citizen you renounce on who you are. What I am saying is that since you are a citizen of a host country you should respect your surroudings and avoid any actions that would segregate you from society and the majority ethnos that resides there. That doesnt mean that you cant go home and speak your language or hold neighborhood block parties. You dont have to put a label on it, just do what you want without being provacative about it.

And we should give up from our brothers because you don’t have to believe in minorities???

After all they are our brothers not yours and we will never give up from them.

Give them up ? Please, you are being condescending. They know who they are they dont need other people to tell them.

No i don’t see you on Turkish forum, i see how you harping against Macedonian minorities on Macedonian forum.

I am anti-minority across the board. This includes Greek minorities as well. I dont believe in it and I would be a hypocrite to advocate Greek minority and against others. Minority groups are often used as pawns in the grand chess game of global politics. They are used as leverage from Superpowers to pressure, influence or even change borders, politcal allegiances of smaller countries. Look what they did to Yugoslavia, Serbia, Iraq, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, India, etc.
We dont need that here in Greece.