Countries that recognize Macedonia

[julie]

And UMD too please, what does Macedonia need to do? And how can we in the diaspora facilitate for this to happen before this census which I feel will set Macedonia back

[indigen]

Australia should be the next country to recognize us!

Is this wishful thinking or are "You" going to make it happen?

[indigen]

And UMD too please, what does Macedonia need to do? And how can we in the diaspora facilitate for this to happen before this census which I feel will set Macedonia back

Julie, I thought you, like most of us here on MTO, realised that "UMD" is rather irrelevant to Macedonians in the Diaaspora (and very much more so in Australia) and the Macedonian Cause in general and it now becomes perplexing to watch you asking Meto for advice on what course of action Macedonians in Australia should take.

[Vangelovski]

Where are the errors?

Why don't you point your objections more precisely and try to give the correct deffinition according to you?

( You must be the expert)

Bratot,

I've lost count of how many times and by how many people this has been pointed out to you.

You need to learn what SOVEREINGTY means and then have a good think about how that applies to the Macedonian people.

Arguing that we adhere to "laws" developed by an UNELECTED organisation, which has no interest in our political or cultural survival is nothing more than VASSAL politics.


Julie,

As a free and sovereign people (think about these concepts) we ALONE will decide how to run our state and which agreements to adhere to in our own national interest. We do not have to "do" anything and there are no legal or moral obligations to adhere to an illegitimate agreement that violates our national sovereignty and individual natural rights.

I’m also somewhat amazed that you would seriously consider taking advice on this matter from Meto or his UMD, particularly seeing as they continue openly advocate anti-Macedonian policies.

For the both of you here are two key concepts that you really need to get your head around, or you will continue to be subject to a slave mentality and governed by fear:

Individual Natural Rights
Individual and Collective Self-determination

[indigen]

Thank you Bratot for the explanation, it has given me a greater understanding
Vangelovski, could you please give me your understanding of what Macedonia needs to do to declare it null and void?
Cheers guys

Short memory! :-)

This is neither news nor politics, this is a game the greeks keep playing in order to keep Macedonia suppressed. There are two ways to put this fire out - douse it with cold water or stop feeding it and it will die down.
Every time we engage in banter about this non-existent dispute we feed it, why not declare it doesn't exist, refuse to capitulate and ignore it! Instead of coming up with alternatives, suggestions, different names, different solutions - if no problem exists then no solution needs to be found! The very moment you begin to engage in any type of discussion you have become part of the problem! To say it's ok we're only talking about it gives the problem credibility- gives it a life of it's own. This problem Greece has is exactly that, Greece's problem, we need to stop feeding it and giving it credibility!

Btw - this is the Macedonian truth organisation, not the Greece has got a problem forum!

ABre Makedonche, taka e!

Julie, do you remember saying this? :-)

I feel that, if nothing else, this quote is most relevant at this point in this thread...

Benjamin Franklin

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Benjamin Franklin (January 17, 1706 [O.S. January 6, 1705[1]] – April 17, 1790) was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. A noted polymath, Franklin was a leading author and printer, satirist, political theorist, politician, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman, soldier and diplomat.

Excellent quote above from Rogi and very, very pertinent for Macedonians!

Some more refreshers for you, Julie:

OziMak,

For someone who admits that they don't know what the ramifications of leaving the Accord may be, you certainly don't shy away from using them to scare people into maintaining the Accord.

If you're unaware of the damage the Accord has done, I would suggest you do some research - perhaps start by reading the Accord itself.

I'll give you a clue - it has something to do with deconstructing the sovereignty of the Macedonian state.

a necessary evil? LOL, seriously Ozimak, you are joking?

Julie,

I cannot believe how many times we need to go around the same circles (not directed at you).

However, seeing as you've entered the debate, why do you think an embargo would even be imposed?

Why do you think that Macedonia cannot declare this Accord 'null and void'? What do you think would happen? And why?

Did anyone think that estblishing and maintaining an independent state was going to be easy? That everyone would welcome us into the world community? We are ALONE in this and we ALONE are RESPONSIBLE for ourselves. If we, as Macedonians, are not capable or ready to maintain and defend an independent state, then why on earth did we even go down this road? This is one idiotic Accord that can be torn up at any moment, yet the majority seem to be paralysed by the UNSUBSTANTIATED SCAREMONGERING.

I have absolutely no doubt what our fate would have been, had the Serbs decided to invade Macedonia in the early 90's - if the Macedonians cannot muster the courage to declare an Accord 'null and void', can you imagine them resisting VIOLENTLY an invading army!?!?!?!?!? Their first attempt to do so (the KLA) resulted in a catastrophic capitulation resulting DIRECTLY from our vassal politicians and their lapdogs.

I am and have always been against negotiations, the EU and NATO, and I have never accepted the bullshit framework agreement and interim accord.

Then you should stick to that and nothing else as you would also be in line with what Macedonian communities worldwide, and specifically in Australia, voted for in 1993/1995 and 2001!

How can we fix this?

Solution is simple but achieving it would be very hard as it requires either a political revolution or a military takeover in Macedonia by a NATIONALIST (PATRIOTIC) MOVEMENT and declaring ALL prior acts of CAPITULATION AND TREASON AS NULL AND VOID.

Thus we need to start with an ideology and to gather together adherents of that ideology into a national movement that will achieve the set aims and objectives - SOVEREIGN MACEDONIAN STATE for MACEDONIAN NATION! If one does not adhere to our ideology, then they are either political opponents or uninformed/misinformed part of the masses. The former should be neutralised or fought against whilst the latter should be educated/enlightened and won over in as greater number as possible. The quicker one can do this, the stronger the fight for the final aims will be.

Indigen, am with you batko

JULIA, if your were IDEOLOGICALLY CONSISTENT and "with me" (and the others you often "agree with"), you would NOT be asking the question/s you now are above!

If you want to read an in-depth "debate" between pro "IC" ADVOCATES (Bratot, OziMak and Buktop) vs Vangelovski and other Macedonian patriots opposed to the "IC" (and ALL VASSAL capitulation politics/policies in general!), go to the following link (and avoid off-topic stuff here):

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3803&page=7

[Bill77]

Julie, I thought you, like most of us here on MTO, realised that "UMD" is rather irrelevant to Macedonians in the Diaaspora (and very much more so in Australia) and the Macedonian Cause in general and it now becomes perplexing to watch you asking Meto for advice on what course of action Macedonians in Australia should take.

Indigin,
I am sure Julie is a big girl now and speak for her self, but i don't think she is looking for advice she has her own opinions and understandings, she is trying to expose Meto's thoughts and have them public and documented. We all including your self have asked UMD questions. It does not mean we are looking for advice.


Same situation in post 170. She is asking for vangelovski's point of view and not looking for advice which clearly you demonstrated she already has one. She is just wanting to get active and keep this forum active.

I am not Julie mabe she could confirm what i say is correct.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

I've lost count of how many times and by how many people this has been pointed out to you.

Aham, let me help you.. it was only you objecting but never offered anything in substance beside your rubish rethoric.

I have precisely asked what was fraud or malicious in my answer to Julie, you provide nothing.

Is maybe because I said the both resolution are contrary to the Charter of UN and the IA itself because in it's article 5 is calling on exctly those two resolutions and according to article 103 of UN make them null?

You need to learn what SOVEREINGTY means and then have a good think about how that applies to the Macedonian people.

Arguing that we adhere to "laws" developed by an UNELECTED organisation, which has no interest in our political or cultural survival is nothing more than VASSAL politics.

I know what sovereingty means and I never said we need the UN to provide it.

But it was not my choice to decide and measure in which international organisations we could benefit as a members, somebody already decide on our behalf.

Actually, I do agree with your perception of UN.

[Vangelovski]

Aham, let me help you.. it was only you objecting but never offered anything in substance beside your rubish rethoric.

I have precisely asked what was fraud or malicious in my answer to Julie, you provide nothing.

Is maybe because I said the both resolution are contrary to the Charter of UN and the IA itself because in it's article 5 is calling on exctly those two resolutions and according to article 103 of UN make them null?





I know what sovereingty means and I never said we need the UN to provide it.

But it was not my choice to decide and measure in which international organisations we could benefit as a members, somebody already decide on our behalf.

Actually, I do agree with your perception of UN.

Bratot,

Your response DEMONSTRATES that you are far from understanding what SOVEREINGTY means. You should have a very good think about it, maybe refer to some authoritative works on the topic.

[Bratot]

Vangelovski,

thank you for your unconstructive reply, I fooled, myself, once again to believe you are enough capable to have an discussion with but you are just useless in every means.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski,

thank you for your unconstructive reply, I fooled, myself, once again to believe you are enough capable to have an discussion with but you are just useless in every means.

How am I mean't to have a discussion with someone who doesn't understand the basic concepts relating to the topic? If you want a run-down, I can give you one, but if you're going to make up BS as you go along, then what's the point?

[julie]

Julie, I thought you, like most of us here on MTO, realised that "UMD" is rather irrelevant to Macedonians in the Diaaspora (and very much more so in Australia) and the Macedonian Cause in general and it now becomes perplexing to watch you asking Meto for advice on what course of action Macedonians in Australia should take.

Indigen -
Where did I ask Meto for advice on behalf of the Australians in Macedonia????
I guess its now my turn to cop abuse, am not playing the game Indigen, I dont have the energy or health for it

Am tired of people putting words in my mouth, and am sick and tired of the insults and derogatory comments and attacks. If I am the next victim , will sign out.

[julie]

Indigin,
I am sure Julie is a big girl now and speak for her self, but i don't think she is looking for advice she has her own opinions and understandings, she is trying to expose Meto's thoughts and have them public and documented. We all including your self have asked UMD questions. It does not mean we are looking for advice.


Same situation in post 170. She is asking for vangelovski's point of view and not looking for advice which clearly you demonstrated she already has one. She is just wanting to get active and keep this forum active.

I am not Julie mabe she could confirm what i say is correct.

Cheer Bill, you know me well

[julie]

Bratot,

I've lost count of how many times and by how many people this has been pointed out to you.

You need to learn what SOVEREINGTY means and then have a good think about how that applies to the Macedonian people.

Arguing that we adhere to "laws" developed by an UNELECTED organisation, which has no interest in our political or cultural survival is nothing more than VASSAL politics.


Julie,

As a free and sovereign people (think about these concepts) we ALONE will decide how to run our state and which agreements to adhere to in our own national interest. We do not have to "do" anything and there are no legal or moral obligations to adhere to an illegitimate agreement that violates our national sovereignty and individual natural rights.

I’m also somewhat amazed that you would seriously consider taking advice on this matter from Meto or his UMD, particularly seeing as they continue openly advocate anti-Macedonian policies.

For the both of you here are two key concepts that you really need to get your head around, or you will continue to be subject to a slave mentality and governed by fear:

Individual Natural Rights
Individual and Collective Self-determination

Thank you for the insults Vangelovski.
Indigen and yourself have found yourselves someone new to attack, such heroes.
HOW DARE YOU both misconstrue what I write, and insult me
I am without ego, nor do I have "slave-mentality".
I would like to know how to help my Macedonian people in RoM, and I dont give a rats arse what you make of my questions.
I would like to know what UMD are doing, and have that right to ask that question.

Indigen and Vangelovski, both of you continue to attack and there will be no one left on the forum. I shall make it easy for you both and just leave, my health does not permit me to justify my existence to either of you PIG headed and rude imbeciles, and for someone so Godloving Vangelovski, disgusting

[Soldier of Macedon]

Australia should be the next country to recognize us!

What a loaded comment from a worm like you. Why just Australia? All countries should recognise Macedonia, there is no order here.

What did your pathetic trip achieve in terms of bringing us closer to this realisation? You and your small and insignificant handful of cohorts in Australia were talking all sorts of hype when you were here, what did you achieve?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bratot - the Interim Accord states under Article 23:

"This Interim Accord shall remain in force until superseded by a definitive
agreement, provided that after seven years either Party may withdraw from this Interim
Accord by a written notice, which shall take effect 12 months after its delivery to the other Party"

Macedonia can withdraw at any time.

And what have you done to persuade the Macedonian government towards such an action?

You go around claiming to represent people that don't trust you, and you still fail to produce anything of worth. Go and organise another boat cruise.