Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Rogi]

I feel that, if nothing else, this quote is most relevant at this point in this thread...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Benjamin Franklin


Benjamin Franklin (January 17, 1706 [O.S. January 6, 1705[1]] – April 17, 1790) was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. A noted polymath, Franklin was a leading author and printer, satirist, political theorist, politician, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman, soldier and diplomat.

[Buktop]

Buktop, is your real name George Orwell?

Supporting the very mechanisms that enslave us indicate you are SUBSERVIENT.

I have never advocated supporting the mechanisms that enslave us, and I dare you to prove that allegation...

I have advocated subverting the mechanisms, preparing economically, politically and socially over a time-frame in order to remove ourselves from said mechanisms.

You on the other hand would like to play the Dirty Harry, cowboy figure and carelessly act as though you were a spoiled child regardless of the consequences of your actions... Unlike you, I plan for the future, my children, my grandchildren... I don't selfishly look for myself.

[Buktop]

I feel that, if nothing else, this quote is most relevant at this point in this thread...



Benjamin Franklin


Benjamin Franklin (January 17, 1706 [O.S. January 6, 1705[1]] – April 17, 1790) was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. A noted polymath, Franklin was a leading author and printer, satirist, political theorist, politician, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman, soldier and diplomat.

The key is not temporary safety, but laying the foundation for years to come, and that is why I specifically highlighted that in my previous post.

Franklin was speaking more about wartime concessions to the government. He did not have Macedonia's situation in mind when he wrote that quote.

[Risto the Great]

Risto, I did not intentionally avoid your questions and I will answer them shortly, unfortunately, I had a very serious family issue to attend to that I would not like to discuss on the forum. I wish you to know that I did not purposely avoid your questions.

Fair enough. Hope the issue resolves itself to your favour.
pozdrav

[Vangelovski]

I have never advocated supporting the mechanisms that enslave us, and I dare you to prove that allegation...

I have advocated subverting the mechanisms, preparing economically, politically and socially over a time-frame in order to remove ourselves from said mechanisms.

You on the other hand would like to play the Dirty Harry, cowboy figure and carelessly act as though you were a spoiled child regardless of the consequences of your actions... Unlike you, I plan for the future, my children, my grandchildren... I don't selfishly look for myself.

Buktop,

You have done nothing but advocate for the continued vassalage and existence of both the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. I don't have the time to go through all your posts only for you then to deny that you ever wrote them.

[Buktop]

Fair enough. Hope the issue resolves itself to your favour.
pozdrav

As always a gentlemen and a scholar, thanks for your compassion.

Pozdrav

[Buktop]

Buktop,

You have done nothing but advocate for the continued vassalage and existence of both the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. I don't have the time to go through all your posts only for you then to deny that you ever wrote them.

You know, if I owned a hot air balloon, I am sure I could use you to float me around the world...

[makedonche]

You know, if I owned a hot air balloon, I am sure I could use you to float me around the world...

Buktop
It's nice to know that you can get the balloon up in the air on your own!

[Vangelovski]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Buktop thinks himself quite clever – he’s just discovered the “mudrost” argument, used over the centuries by his like.

Buktop would have us believe that fundamental principles that are absolutely necessary for our way of life such as democracy, self-government and human/civil rights are “cowboyish”, dangerous, and quite frankly extreme, to even think about, let alone exercise. In order to convince us of his warped vision for OUR future, he’s now trying to argue that “prudence” (or his own distorted version of it) requires us to remain subservient to our foreign masters, in the vain hope that they will meet our daily needs...food, water, shelter. He’s even evoked the children...the poor children. What would happen to them if we were to exercise self-government? The real question is, what would happen to them if we don’t? They would be left with the problem that their parents were too cowardly (or comfortable) to solve.

What still amazes me is that he cannot even come up with a good reason as to why we must wait for the “right time”...other than the “right cost”. He’s only willing to enjoy – and allow the rest of the Macedonian people to enjoy – freedom, IF it comes at the “right” cost. And by that he means that he wants NO cost at all.

What Buktop is really trying to say is that he does not want Macedonian freedom. For some perverted reason, which only he and people like him can understand, he’s happy to live as a cheerleader for vassal politicians and then let his and OUR children deal with the consequences (of which we know very well after 20 years of watching and living in our little vassal hamlet).

If it were up to people like Buktop, Americans would still be pledging their allegiance to the Queen of England – that’s unless Chamberlain handed the country over to the Nazi’s in 1938.

[fyrOM]

As previously stated I cannot see the accord going for any long time as the stage of the reforms is nearing its completion that’s why I said maybe one and half years to two years at best but a crunch could come by the end of the year with the elections.

No doubt the eu wants a result on the name issue. Had it been sooner it just settles things for them earlier but not that they would accept Macedonia until the reforms were complete. This would in doubt ask the obvious question why did Macedonia change the name and no immediate benefit. A promise for one day would be a bad bargain considering that’s what Macedonia already had with the accord so the eu cannot push too hard. They obviously are pushing because who says they want a fair deal. If they can shackle Macedonia without concrete benefits all the better.

As the reforms near completion the eu must decide if Macedonia is a suitable candidate. All along the eu have been saying Macedonia is excellent in her progress with the reforms then they need to make a clear offer which no doubt will include the condition that the name issue is settled. This is crunch time. Everything is a go but for the name and that’s when a referendum will be pushed hard and possibly encourage the Albanians to protest on a regular basis and a massive propaganda war from Greece and the eu.

The other alternative is if as Germany has indicated they might change the eu rules to not allow countries to veto on bilateral issues so a applicant can be assessed on their merits. This could be just a ploy and should not be counted on in Macedonia’s preparations in regards to her reforms nor the accord issues nor the option of abandoning entry to the eu if a total impasse is met.

You guys are so into right is right and push for an out and out showdown and sort the matter completely. I wonder have you thought of the consequences of the actions you are proposing. I wonder where would Macedonia be at the time of the embargo and accord if you were Macedonia’s leaders then. I am amazed by your responses because in other issues in different threads you show great intelligence and insight yet on this issue you appear bloody minded with blinkers on. Does someone really need to explain playing along and bluffing to you.

Macedonia was caught in a weak position and the Greeks and eu thought this is the time to achieve their end. A show of strength at that time by Macedonia would have had dire consequences. Its like a guy getting caught in a dark ally by ten other guys demanding his wallet. Be the tough guy and get your teeth kicked in and loose your wallet. Your immediate reaction is so then what are you saying roll over and just give them your wallet. No. and im surprised you cant see what the accord means to Macedonia. Its like the guy saying look rather than beating him up and taking his wallet how’s about they go down the main street to the corner where the bank has an atm where they can get more money without beating him up. He doesn’t intend to give them the money from the atm nor his wallet nor get beat up. He wants to get out of the dark ally and head down a main street hoping to see a cop or other friends or a chance to do a runner.

You guys are continually winging about how dare he walk up the main road to the atm and the likely hood of giving his atm money. Sort it out. Tell them to get stuffed. Great words but said too early and you get your teeth kicked in. Said at a later time when you can do a runner or get to your group of friends and your laughing. Same words different timing different results. Its that simple. But for this to work while walking up the main road you need to be preparing for all of your options depending on which one plays out. In Macedonia’s case or past traitorous leaders spent more time building their own wealth instead of that of the country. We are fast approaching the end of the street not exactly prepared as well as we could have been.

The current government have done lots in the relative short time they have had. Don’t worry it wont be another 15 or 20 years. We don’t have that luxury. But what you are proposing is like saying the bank is in sight so tell them to get stuffed and start swinging your fists because you can see your friends half a block away on the other street over the intersection. Isn’t it better to drag you feet and let your friends get closer before you try to do a runner.

PS Can I be Bruce Wayne. I like luxury and don’t think I would look good in tights.

[fyrOM]

Indigen I can go a chickoroll or down a pie n dead horse any day or night even for breakfast. I have made it no secret that in the past I had an attitude its over there I cannot do anything about it im sure they’ll sort it out. You might find that attitude objectionable but that’s what it was then. In recent times I have started to take a greater interest.

The difference between a snake oil salesman and what im saying is the snake oil. Crvenkovski and the like improved their own wealth at the expense of the country and more importantly wasted the years Macedonia has to prepare for the inevitable time to put up or shut up which will be put to Macedonia soon. Using the time before then to prepare the country to reverse the statement to the eu or abandoning joining the eu or doing nothing and wasting the time and leaving the country in the same or similar weakened position as when the accord was thrust upon Macedonia is the difference. The method might look similar but the results show the intent. The governments actions speak for themselves.

Or am I a better than average spy who’s learned the lingo.

[indigen]

Indigen I can go a chickoroll or down a pie n dead horse any day or night even for breakfast.

Or am I a better than average spy who’s learned the lingo.

You might be Prolet in another mode for all I know and your politics seem to align about the old days of Gligorov and how we were in a tough spot and "our Government" had no choice ...blah, blah, blah!

I will ask again, were you in Australia in 1995 (as in having lived here for some years as an adult in the period of 1990-1995) or are you a recent arrival?

As I said above, WE, THE AUSTRALIAN MACEODNIANS, VIA MASS MEETINGS ORGANISED BY REPRESENTATIVE ORGANISATIONS AUSTRALIA-WIDE, made our point about the "INTERIM ACCORD" in 1995 and CLEARLY AND UNANIMOUSLY CONDEMNED THE ACT OF BETRAYAL!

Thus, I see some CLOWN with a login and avatar as you have clearly expressing opinions that are totally UNREPRESENTATIVE of Aussie Mak Communities and can only hold you in CONTEMPT for it. You are a GENUINE FRAUD, IMHO!

[Vangelovski]

OziMak,

Seeing as you keep alluding to some sort of "catastrophe" stemming from self-government, how about answering my original question which you keep avoiding:

What do you think will happen if Macedonia declares the Interim Accord 'null and void' and reverses its implementation and why?

Try and use some sound evidence-based reasoning rather than incoherent analogies.

P.S. Using the same scaremongering tactics from 20 years ago is not going to cut it.

[fyrOM]

Im not a fortune teller nor do I have a time machine to look into the future and tell you everything that will happen. I did answer your question which you seem to think is to brief and lacking detail. If I knew all the details I would be making money fortune telling.

Like I said I know how you are loading your question so few point so few details now lets pick them off as having uncertain foundations and we can say we are absolutely right and pat ourselves on the back. But also like I said if you are so certain that the correct course of action is to quit the accord right now or years ago then explain why and how.

I have already explained that it was a necessary evil to live with up till now and that very soon this stalemate situation will have to break and definite decision will need to be made by both Macedonia and the eu. Which exactly will play out I don’t know but one part of that decision that will definitely be is no change in the name without an overthrow of the government either by war or stuffing ballot boxes and then war.

The most likely scenario I think is the government will drag it out as long as possible to allow themselves more time to shore up support from the people and encourage foreign investment hence the near constant travel Gruevski and Ivanov are doing. When the eu calls for a definite answer they will reverse the question to the eu.

I find your scare mongering of the existence of the accord unfounded. Demonising everyone who says they don’t necessarily like but understand why the accord is still in place doesn’t make them wrong or any less patriotic. The governments plan is obvious. The ones you need to look out for are the traitors like Crvenkovski who say they will follow through.

[fyrOM]

No I am not a recent arrival.

Just because members the Macedonian community in Australia got together and decided against the accord and CLEARLY AND UNANIMOUSLY CONDEMNED THE ACT OF BETRAYAL! doesn’t mean every Macedonian in Australia felt that way and nor that they would come out and have an argument with you and nor does it necessarily make you right.

I keep finding im talking about the same thing in two different threads ie. Solution to the name dispute which I think should be merged with this one. How’s about it RTG and others.

I have made it no secret that in the past I had an attitude its over there I cannot do anything about it im sure they’ll sort it out. You might find that attitude objectionable but that’s what it was then. In recent times I have started to take a greater interest.

You guys are so into right is right and push for an out and out showdown and sort the matter completely. I wonder have you thought of the consequences of the actions you are proposing. I wonder where would Macedonia be at the time of the embargo and accord if you were Macedonia’s leaders then.
Macedonian Truth Forum > News and Politics
Solution to the name dispute (?) page 7

Government" had no choice ...blah, blah, blah!

But also like I said if you are so certain that the correct course of action is to quit the accord years ago then explain why and how.
News and Politics
Solution to the name dispute (?) page 7 second post

Thus, I see some CLOWN with a login and avatar as you have clearly expressing opinions that are totally UNREPRESENTATIVE of Aussie Mak Communities and can only hold you in CONTEMPT for it. You are a GENUINE FRAUD

I have never claimed to be representative of all Macedonians in Australia. Indigen I am not the representative of some Australian Macedonian Diaspora if such an organisation exists. I am Macedonian and an Australian hence my login name and avatar nothing more. If you have as you say contempt for the views I have expressed because I am Australian then you are wrong. Is it somehow right if a Macedonian from Germany or USA to say it but as an Australian I am contemptible.hahaha

I cannot be a fraud for not supporting something I have never said I supported.