Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

No Vangelovski, but I start to think you use Buktop in order to cover up for your lack of real arguments.
If you don't agree with my opinion don't dare to imply me with a wrong characteur since I won't get further more in this intelectually destructive debate.

If you have not noticed yet that your fundamental lack of familiarity about this subject have produce a opportunity for you to line up with the Gligorovists delussive terminology of "negotiating only for the provisional reference to be replaced" while hiding the real purpose.

We don't know eachother privately, but according to your reputation and credibility among the members of this forum I respect don't try to discredit my knowledge with cheap assumtions and insinuations since I'm not a person to tolerate that.

Bratot,

Seeing as you've brought up Gligorov again, can you beat his promise? He told use that if we join the UN as FYROM, he'll revert back to 'Macedonia' within three months. Do you think that your suggested approach can get Macedonia into the EU/NATO as FYROM, and then remove the "temporary name" (that somehow is not a second name for international use) as you like to call it within a shorter timeframe, say perhaps two months?

Only you yourself can discredit your own "knowledge". I'm not posting on your behalf pushing the tired old argument that "now is not the time" to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void', that we need to wait for a "better time", and that Macedonia can supposedly join the EU/NATO as FYROM and then revert back to Macedonia (even though Greece has already prevented your preferred scenario materialising - and I'm still at a loss as to how you can claim that Greece did not 'veto', when the very nature of a unanimous decision requires ALL members to agree and if one does not then the decision is not passed in the affirmitive, therefore, a veto).

I think you should have a rethink about what it is you are proposing, because all you have done is move from a Gligorovist approach of we have to accept the Interim Accord as a reality (albiet temporarily - how long is that again?) to Gruevski's approach of a "constitutional" name alongside an international name and now back to Gligorov's "we'll get in and then fix things".

Most importantly, you have failed to tell us exactly WHY we "have" to wait for "better times" and SUBSTANTIATE your claims. What will be most interesting of all is if you can tell us HOW and WHY "things" will improve by CONTINUING the DECONSTRUCTION of our sovereignty?

[indigen]

I am just pointing out the absurdity of the acronym "FYROM" when no such exists as per the Interim Accord.

My stance on the issue is that Macedonia should enforce Article 23 of the Accord, it is our legal right to do so.

Daskale, the following post by TV, IME, clarifies a couple of important considerations that should be taken into account when considering your suggestion:

Vangelovski
The only dignified exit, in my view, can be enacted at any time and that is to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void'. The only thing stopping Macedonian politicians from doing this is their vassal interests. The only thing stopping ordinary Macedonians from demanding this is the vague and unsubstantiated apocalyptic scenarios fed to them by their vassal politicians.

If Macedonia was to withdraw based on Article 23, it would have to recognise the Accord as valid. If it were to recognise the Accord as valid, it would legitimise the Greek argument that we are in fact stealing their history, name, identity etc.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...&postcount=125

There is only one name for Macedonia and that is Macedonia, a fair compromise is our constitutional name the Republic of Macedonia.

Macedonian does NOT have a "CONSTITUTIONAL" name and I don't know why we have to go over this again with people who should know better! Why the regression into using this DUBIOUS ANTI-MACEDONIAN Gligorovist concoction?

[Daskalot]

Indigen so what you are telling me is that Macedonia is not address in the constitution as the Republic of Macedonia but only as Macedonia? Or non of the above?

Here is the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia.

http://www.sobranie.mk/en/default.asp?ItemID=9F7452BF44EE814B8DB897C1858B71FF

[julie]

Vangelovski, Bratot has an opinion, and he is speaking from an economic perspective.
I have no idea how this mess can be rectified, if ever.

How do you propose that RoM act now, and what steps should be taken?
Do you think that RoM has the ability to function if another embargo would be imposed?

I am and have always been against negotiations, the EU and NATO, and I have never accepted the bullshit framework agreement and interim accord.

How can we fix this? We should stop arguing amongst ourselves, we are all very patriotic here, and are here for the same cause, some unity would go down very well, instead of discrediting each other, how about working toward a common goal, HOW, when, why, .....so that we can try and influence the inept politicians in RoM.

[Vangelovski]

I thought we had gone way beyond all of this, but it seems that some of those who until now claimed our name was non-negotiable are now suggesting that the international community should respect the Interim Accord to the letter, and rather than refer to us in that derogatory FYROM terminology, they should "respect" our decision to be "temporarily" referred to as "the Former Yugoslav Repbulic of Macedonia" or simply "FYR Macedonia".

Others are now defending the Interim Accord and RESTARTING the scaremongering campaing that now is not the "right time" to declare it 'null and void', that we need to legitimise the Accord even further by continuing to implement it in the vain hope that Greece may change its mind and allow Macedonia to enter the EU/NATO as FYROM after all...I mean "the Former Yugoslav Repbulic of Macedonia", after which (following an indeterminate period of time) Macedonia will then engage its "grand strategy" and revert back to calling itself 'Macedonia', YET these same strategists claim that it is NOT possible to do this at the UN right now...oh that's right, the "time" is not "right".

[Vangelovski]

Julie,

I cannot believe how many times we need to go around the same circles (not directed at you).

However, seeing as you've entered the debate, why do you think an embargo would even be imposed?

Why do you think that Macedonia cannot declare this Accord 'null and void'? What do you think would happen? And why?

Did anyone think that estblishing and maintaining an independent state was going to be easy? That everyone would welcome us into the world community? We are ALONE in this and we ALONE are RESPONSIBLE for ourselves. If we, as Macedonians, are not capable or ready to maintain and defend an independent state, then why on earth did we even go down this road? This is one idiotic Accord that can be torn up at any moment, yet the majority seem to be paralysed by the UNSUBSTANTIATED SCAREMONGERING.

I have absolutely no doubt what our fate would have been, had the Serbs decided to invade Macedonia in the early 90's - if the Macedonians cannot muster the courage to declare an Accord 'null and void', can you imagine them resisting VIOLENTLY an invading army!?!?!?!?!? Their first attempt to do so (the KLA) resulted in a catastrophic capitulation resulting DIRECTLY from our vassal politicians and their lapdogs.

[Daskalot]

Vangelovski our name is non-negotiable.
Our government does not seem to do much about that because the accord is still in place and in full force.
There is no better time then right now to pull away from the negotiations and the accord.
Greek is weak and it has alot of domestic problems.

[Risto the Great]

I think some Macedonians would prefer to go into international institutions as The Former Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (former = twice = not a mistake). FFYROM. It could be argued as a defiant victory in the worldwide community.

[julie]

Vangelovski, I stated - I have no idea how this mess can be rectified, if ever.
And stand by that.

I see some very intelligent , well educated individuals going hammer and tong at each other. Very intelligent men, that united, can achieve so much. This is what I am trying to say - there will never be the right way, the only way of doing anything with any situation, particurlarly where our sovereignty is the issue.
I beleive in debates being healthy, where , if everyone can place their opinion - on the situation, how to rectify the problem and what possible repercussions there may be, that we may come to some solution that is going to be the outcome we all want. And that is to maintain our name, heritage, culture and sovereignty and have the ability to enforce basic human rights to our brothers and sisters in Egey, Pirin and mala prespa, for a unified Macedonia, that is something that would only come about with a world war or revolution, we need to unify as a people and stop attacking each other.

We are all here for the same thing.
I dont understand why RoM politicians are so weak minded, and why they cant declare the Accord null and void. I think they should do that, certainly, and dont undertand why it has not already been done.
I also dont condone sending Macedonian soldiers under the guise of NATO and not be recognised as simply Macedonian
I dont want Macedonia to inherit a major debt to pay Greases shithole debt either, so am against the EU, for the EU cannot do anything for RoM

RoM needs investment and business and private enterprise , and this is imperitive to appease the situation with unemployment being so high

I also think the apathy from the citizens in RoM is dreadful, and we need to empower them, it seems the diaspora is more concerned in the sovereignty of Macedonia then the citizens in RoM.
An apalling situation.

[julie]

Vangelovski our name is non-negotiable.
Our government does not seem to do much about that because the accord is still in place and in full force.
There is no better time then right now to pull away from the negotiations and the accord.
Greek is weak and it has alot of domestic problems.

Absolutely, I agree wholeheartedly, why does RoM do nothing?

[indigen]

I am and have always been against negotiations, the EU and NATO, and I have never accepted the bullshit framework agreement and interim accord.

Then you should stick to that and nothing else as you would also be in line with what Macedonian communities worldwide, and specifically in Australia, voted for in 1993/1995 and 2001!

How can we fix this?

Solution is simple but achieving it would be very hard as it requires either a political revolution or a military takeover in Macedonia by a NATIONALIST (PATRIOTIC) MOVEMENT and declaring ALL prior acts of CAPITULATION AND TREASON AS NULL AND VOID.

Thus we need to start with an ideology and to gather together adherents of that ideology into a national movement that will achieve the set aims and objectives - SOVEREIGN MACEDONIAN STATE for MACEDONIAN NATION! If one does not adhere to our ideology, then they are either political opponents or uninformed/misinformed part of the masses. The former should be neutralised or fought against whilst the latter should be educated/enlightened and won over in as greater number as possible. The quicker one can do this, the stronger the fight for the final aims will be.

[julie]

Indigen, am with you batko

[indigen]

Indigen, am with you batko

Then follow (though never blindly) Vangelovski's, Aleksandrov's and RTG's (there are others too but these guys are leading exponents on MTO whom I think would NOT REGRESS at the drop of a hat!) ideological lead.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Seeing as you've brought up Gligorov again, can you beat his promise? He told use that if we join the UN as FYROM, he'll revert back to 'Macedonia' within three months. Do you think that your suggested approach can get Macedonia into the EU/NATO as FYROM, and then remove the "temporary name" (that somehow is not a second name for international use) as you like to call it within a shorter timeframe, say perhaps two months?

I'm not responsible for Gligorov nor the point of our discussion is to undertake side of Gligorovist-Grujovist or Self proclaimed geniune Patriots.

I don't tell you to accept a name change nor I suggest double formula, all I have argumentately stated is how to use the already given condition (which is not my or your fault) and to assure ourselfs a path to solve this in our use not involving any specific timeframe.

Only you yourself can discredit your own "knowledge". I'm not posting on your behalf pushing the tired old argument that "now is not the time" to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void', that we need to wait for a "better time", and that Macedonia can supposedly join the EU/NATO as FYROM and then revert back to Macedonia (even though Greece has already prevented your preferred scenario materialising - and I'm still at a loss as to how you can claim that Greece did not 'veto', when the very nature of a unanimous decision requires ALL members to agree and if one does not then the decision is not passed in the affirmitive, therefore, a veto).

Every reasonable person with basic understanding of these processes will separate the good things, bad things, potential threats, potential chances, provide strategy of achieving his goal not by ignoring the political circumstances or rejecting every other opinion before he undertake something.

You continue repeating the same mistakes.

FYROM exist only in the perception the Greeks want you to have, another thing you should think of why Greece blocked us even though we were ready to enter under the provisional reference, the second another thing is to understand that NATO doesn't recognize "veto" as such and this is one of the argument of the Greek side because formally such term is not in use.

But still, the reason of not entering NATO is obvious, Greece undertook measures to block Macedonia’s entry into NATO.

I think you should have a rethink about what it is you are proposing, because all you have done is move from a Gligorovist approach of we have to accept the Interim Accord as a reality (albiet temporarily - how long is that again?) to Gruevski's approach of a "constitutional" name alongside an international name and now back to Gligorov's "we'll get in and then fix things".

I did rethink it and I see the same demagogy of Gligorovist-Grujovist as the highest moment in your argumentation.

The Interim Accord IS ALREADY IN USE AND HAS BEEN IN USE FOR MORE THAN 15 YEARS and by this Agreement we are ALREADY MEMBERS in most of the international institutions.

So according to your logic this would already ment a defacto - changed name!

Than what we are discussing in here, no point.

You don't want to enter NATO under the provisional reference but you will rather keep it outside of NATO?

If we won the ICJ case and we become members in NATO and if within NATO structure prevail (ex. Turkey) with our position we can easier abandon the IA, for what NATO will surely not take back our sit as a member state.

Most importantly, you have failed to tell us exactly WHY we "have" to wait for "better times" and SUBSTANTIATE your claims. What will be most interesting of all is if you can tell us HOW and WHY "things" will improve by CONTINUING the DECONSTRUCTION of our sovereignty?

I think I have been fairly answering on all of your questions and have given too much of argumentation, I expected you can figure it by yourself.

Now let me ask you one question, what status will have Macedonia in UN if NOW unilateraly withdraw the IA?

In this question is hiding a big part of the answer to your question.

[julie]

I always have and already do, you banana
BTW I am a Leo, A lioness, and a proud Macedonian one at that, I dont follow, I walk alongside, or go frontline