Census' in the Republic of Macedonia

[George S.]

The albanians are trying to falsify the census figures.They must be stopped at all costs and the census should not be delayed anylonger.

[Risto the Great]

Does anyone have an overview of the census process? It gives me cold shudders to hear that some ethnic Turk Macedonian is trying to be the census official in one area and an ethnic Albanian Macedonian is fighting for a similar position there or somewhere else. It suggests to me that they feel they will influence the outcome by their involvement in that role. Which hardly aligns itself with transparency.

[Onur]

RTG, in the recent articles in Turkish-Macedonian associations and news web sites, they say that in the previous census, all the census officers for Turkish populated areas were only Albanians and they have proofs of several cases of falsification in the ethnicity sections of the formal papers by erasing people`s own writings and changing their answer to "Albanian". They say that this year they will protest if the government sends Albanian officers to these areas. They want either Turkish or Macedonian officers. According to them, it`s highly possible that Albanians will do the same again, especially for papers of elderly people. They will start a campaign for informing the people about it and they call every Turks of Macedonia to accept this as their duty to inform everyone about the census.

These are the words in their latest announcements, articles.

[Risto the Great]

I understand Onur. Please don't misinterpret anything I said as being an attack on ethnic Turks in Macedonia. It is in fact an attack on a system that seems to allow falsification of results. Which is neither helpful nor fair.

[Niko777]

I posted a recent article in the News and Politics section on Macedonian and Albanian numbers/trends from 2009 and 2010. http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=5235

[Onur]

I understand Onur. Please don't misinterpret anything I said as being an attack on ethnic Turks in Macedonia. It is in fact an attack on a system that seems to allow falsification of results. Which is neither helpful nor fair.

No mate, we are cool

I am hanging around here long enough to not get picky about your comments. I understand mate, don't worry.

And it really looks like the system was really weak in previous censuses as you said.

[indigen]

Turks lives in Macedonia for 600+ years and even 1000+ years if we take account of the settlements in eastern Roman era(Oghuz, Cumans, Pecheneges etc.).

Now you are making bogus claims to anything "Turkic" in history as belonging to modern Turkish nation.

You know, even some of your cities and towns has been created during Cuman and Turkish rule.

Which "cities" were created during Cuman "rule"? I understand that Ottomans built up certain towns and cities but I am unaware of any specifically built from scratch, would you care to shed some light on that claim?

[Mastika]

Mastika, these Macedonian muslims probably have Turkish parent(s) or relatives and they prefer to declare themselves as Turks. Same happens for Turkish people in Macedonia too. I heard that the Turkish families who have marriages with Albanians are under pressure by their Albanian relatives for declaring themselves as Albanians.

It may be the case in some instances, however the trend is so widespread that it is hard to pass it off as one relating to merely relatives. These people although most of whom cannot speak any Turkish at all, prefer to call themselves Turks and not Macedonians due to their religious beliefs, which is has more to do with the cultural legacy left by the Turks rather than attempts by Turks to assimilate them.

Btw, while i said "Turkish leaders", i meant the ones who lives in Macedonia, not the leaders of Turkey. So, the Turkish leaders of several associations in Macedonia are looking so keenly towards this census. They are trying to prevent Turks to declare themselves as Albanians because of the pressure from their Albanian relatives and also prevent Albanian census officers falsify the papers. Their only aim is preventing Albanization of Turkish minority which is what happening in Macedonia right now.

True, it is a legitimate concern, however they needn't stress too much, they already 'ahead' in the numbers game.

But be more specific pls, what you really wanna say? You mean that Turkey have some kind of secret agenda for Macedonia? Explain your thoughts.

No, I dont think that Turkey/the Turks living in Macedonia have any special agenda at all.

The population of Turks dropped to 2/3rd in Macedonia for the last 60 years

"Officially" (and that is the key word), between 1948 and 1953 the number of Turks in Macedonia more than doubled (due to the fact that over 100,000 non-Turks claimed they were turkish in order to be eligible to emigrate).

It is true that the official number of Turks has dropped for the past 60 years, however this does not mean that the numbers are not inflated. I have just presented figures arising from ethnic Macedonian Muslim villages, where persons have been counted as Turks, despite them not 'really' being Turkish (eg. they are from ethnic Turkish parents whose mother language was Turkish). This trend has continued since the 1960s. Inflation of the real number of Turks has been a decades long trend.

If what you say about Macedonian muslims is the truth, then there is no more than 50.000 Turks in Macedonia atm.

This is a closer figure to the real number of Turks.

So, you both claim that some of these Turks are Macedonian muslims and Turkey has secret agenda for Macedonia based on less then 50.000 Turks in there?

No, i dont believe that there is any secret agenda, nor did i allude to this fact. I am merely questioning the 'official' results of the census, when they clearly do not reflect a true picture of the demographic situation in Macedonia.

Choose one of your claims cuz you contradict yourself if you claim both. Or at least say that Turkey have secret agenda but we fail miserably with it since Turks are on the edge of extinction according to your claim and census results.

The Turks are not on the edge of extinction, and if Macedonian Muslims are actively assimilating into Turks (which they are), I cannot see an end to the Turkish presence in Macedonia.

[Onur]

These people although most of whom cannot speak any Turkish at all, prefer to call themselves Turks and not Macedonians due to their religious beliefs, which is has more to do with the cultural legacy left by the Turks rather than attempts by Turks to assimilate them.

This might be the true since i know that some Albanians, Pomaks also acted same in 1950-1060s and defined themselves as Turks. The reason for that behavior was mostly because of socialist/communist rules in Albania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia. They were living poor conditions and their religious beliefs was under suppression due to socialist/communist doctrines and they probably saw an opportunity to migrate in to Turkey by expressing themselves as Turks. Most of these people already had Turkish relatives who lives in Turkey too.


I don't know the daily life in Macedonia but i got one more possible reason for that; Most of you guys here define being Macedonian with having christian belief. So, if this is what most of Macedonians thinks, then you shouldn't be surprised if these muslim Macedonians defines themselves as Albanians or Turks. I don't criticize your definition of being Macedonian but i think you shouldn't expect much from your muslim kinsmen if thats the case.

There are some people in Turkey who defines being Turkish by being a muslim too but still most of us doesn't accept that. We define it by having same language and same culture but not by religion. I believe this is the right way cuz whats important is the cultural and linguistic unity, not the religion since your religion belongs to your private life and this doesn't concern the society you live in. If we add religion to that, then we would push non-religious and non-muslim people out of our society. I guess, feeling as an alien among your own people would be worse thing ever.

[indigen]

This might be the true since i know that some Albanians, Pomaks also acted same in 1950-1060s and defined themselves as Turks. The reason for that behavior was mostly because of socialist/communist rules in Albania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia. They were living poor conditions and their religious beliefs was under suppression due to socialist/communist doctrines and they probably saw an opportunity to migrate in to Turkey by expressing themselves as Turks. Most of these people already had Turkish relatives who lives in Turkey too.


I don't know the daily life in Macedonia but i got one more possible reason for that; Most of you guys here define being Macedonian with having christian belief. So, if this is what most of Macedonians thinks, then you shouldn't be surprised if these muslim Macedonians defines themselves as Albanians or Turks. I don't criticize your definition of being Macedonian but i think you shouldn't expect much from your muslim kinsmen if thats the case.

There are some people in Turkey who defines being Turkish by being a muslim too but still most of us doesn't accept that. We define it by having same language and same culture but not by religion. I believe this is the right way cuz whats important is the cultural and linguistic unity, not the religion since your religion belongs to your private life and this doesn't concern the society you live in. If we add religion to that, then we would push non-religious and non-muslim people out of our society. I guess, feeling as an alien among your own people would be worse thing ever.

I think you have hit on a very solid point of why Macedonian nation is losing a significant proportion of its Muslim part to other nations.

[osiris]

I agree indigen onur makes a valid point even to this day I hear some Macedonians referring to pomaks and torbeshi as Turks like the Serbs did the Bosnians. Its a very confused message we the christian Macedonians have sentto the Muslim Macedonians. We want it both ways demanding they declare they are nashi while we treat them as tugi.

[makedonche]

This might be the true since i know that some Albanians, Pomaks also acted same in 1950-1060s and defined themselves as Turks. The reason for that behavior was mostly because of socialist/communist rules in Albania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia. They were living poor conditions and their religious beliefs was under suppression due to socialist/communist doctrines and they probably saw an opportunity to migrate in to Turkey by expressing themselves as Turks. Most of these people already had Turkish relatives who lives in Turkey too.


I don't know the daily life in Macedonia but i got one more possible reason for that; Most of you guys here define being Macedonian with having christian belief. So, if this is what most of Macedonians thinks, then you shouldn't be surprised if these muslim Macedonians defines themselves as Albanians or Turks. I don't criticize your definition of being Macedonian but i think you shouldn't expect much from your muslim kinsmen if thats the case.

There are some people in Turkey who defines being Turkish by being a muslim too but still most of us doesn't accept that. We define it by having same language and same culture but not by religion. I believe this is the right way cuz whats important is the cultural and linguistic unity, not the religion since your religion belongs to your private life and this doesn't concern the society you live in. If we add religion to that, then we would push non-religious and non-muslim people out of our society. I guess, feeling as an alien among your own people would be worse thing ever.

Onur
I understand the point you make but I can tell you that i personally don't seek religion as a prerequisite to being Macedonian. My understanding is that we were Macedonians for hundreds if not thousands of years before we became christians or muslims or catholics or even methodists!

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Australia

The Australian census is administered once every five years by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. The most recent census was conducted on 8 August 2006; the next will be conducted on 9 August 2011. Prior to the introduction of regular censuses in 1961, they had also been run in 1901, 1911, 1921, 1933, 1947, and 1954. It is compulsory for all households to fill in all questions, except those relating to religion and the archiving of personal census details.

[Mastika]

ATTENTION: "Macedonians in the 2011 Australian Census Campaign"

In the count down to the 2011 Australian Census, I urge everyone on Facebook to join this group "Macedonians in the 2011 Australian Census Campaign"; and add all of your friends and family to the group.

Dont forget;
- Write MACEDONIAN as the language spoken at home
- Write MACEDONIAN as your ancestry
- Do NOT write Yugoslavia as your birthplace (Write the actual country; Macedonia, Australia, Greece, etc.)
- Write MACEDONIAN ORTHODOX as your religion.

- Even if these categories are not applicable to you (such as language or religion if you are non-religious); I still urge everyone to write them down as they will not only boost the official number of Macedonians living in Australi, but these better figures will lead to greater funding for Macedonian language programs, church groups, etc. and only benefit our community.

There is only a week to go until census night, and with many people already starting the process online it is important that we help get the ball rolling.

(Can an Admin Please make this thread sticky)

[Sekirani]

I'm already there Mastika, plus the 100 or so friends i added - cheers