Census' in the Republic of Macedonia

[indigen]

Number of Albanians by census year and ther percentage of the total population in brackets:

1953 - 162,524 (12.6)
1961 - 183,108 (13.1)
1971 - 279,871 (17.1)
1981 - 377,208 (19.8)
1991 - 441,987 (21.8)
1994 - 441,104 (22.7)
2002 - 509,083 (25.2)

Population according to declared ethnic* affiliation, by censa

year:...........1953.............1961............. 1971............1981............1991 1)..........1994 2)

TOTAL........1,304,514......1,406,003.......1,647, 308......1,909,136......2,033,964......1,945,932

Macedonian....860,699.....1,000,854......1,142,375 .......1,279,323.....1,328,187.......1,295,964

Albanian........162,524........183,108........279, 871........377,208..........441,987.........441,10 4

http://faq.macedonia.org/information/ethnic.makeup.html

[osiris]

Thanks so its s three fold increase excluding the emigrants I wonder how many other people in Europe had a similar increase in that period.

[indigen]

Thanks so its s three fold increase excluding the emigrants I wonder how many other people in Europe had a similar increase in that period.

1.
[PDF]
VKUPNO NASELENIE VO ZEMJATA TOTAL POPULATION IN THE COUNTRY
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
Ova e devetta publikacija (Kniga IX, Popis 2002) vo koja se sodr`ani 13 tabeli so podatoci za vkupnoto naselenie vo Republika Makedonija spored odredeni ...

https://www.stat.gov.mk/publikacii/knigaIX.pdf

Check out table II in contents section of the above pdf file. There are some figures there about where residents at a given address originated from but they may not be how I have interpreted them. They say for total population of Macedonia, approx 80k moved from another country to their current place of residence but I am not sure if some from another country first lived at another municipality (or at a different location in the same municipality) would be included in the above figure. Thus I withdraw my previous claim that there was not a huge 150k plus influx and (without further precise clarification) it is uncertain what value these figures have in working out how many "Albanians" are foreign born settlers.

[Vangelovski]

1.
[PDF]
VKUPNO NASELENIE VO ZEMJATA TOTAL POPULATION IN THE COUNTRY
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
Ova e devetta publikacija (Kniga IX, Popis 2002) vo koja se sodr`ani 13 tabeli so podatoci za vkupnoto naselenie vo Republika Makedonija spored odredeni ...
www.stat.gov.mk/publikacii/knigaIX.pdf

Check out table II in contents section of the above pdf file. There are some figures there about where residents at a given address originated from but they may not be how I have interpreted them. They say for total population of Macedonia, approx 80k moved from another country to their current place of residence but I am not sure if some from another country first lived at another municipality (or at a different location in the same municipality) would be included in the above figure. Thus I withdraw my previous claim that there was not a huge 150k plus influx and (without further precise clarification) it is uncertain what value these figures have in working out how many "Albanians" are foreign born settlers.

Indigen, it does appear that about 80,000 people have settled in Macedonia from another country according to that data. It would be easier to work it out if they aggragated their data and used some more up-to-date software for their documents! At the moment it looks like someone typed it up in DOS.

[indigen]

Indigen, it does appear that about 80,000 people have settled in Macedonia from another country according to that data. It would be easier to work it out if they aggragated their data and used some more up-to-date software for their documents! At the moment it looks like someone typed it up in DOS.

Unless we can get clarification, it may include ethnic Macedonians and others returning home from other ex-YU republics, which was happening a lot in the early 1990s due to wanting to escape wars and conflict there.

I have seen some other official census data on granting of citizenships and it is nowhere near as large as the figures we see bandied about (e.g. 150k) for "Albanians". I am a bit hazy on the real stats but i don't think it was more than 60k (in 1994), and not all were Kosovari.

Lastly, a third world high birth rate might double a given population in something like 20 years. What do you think?

[fyrOM]

I cant provide you with a link as the website that posted articles relating to this is no longer around (reality macedonia).

Basically in an attempt to win votes SDSM gave many free macedonian passports to "kosovar" refugees in macedonia. A lot of the "kosovars" did go back to kosovo, a lot stayed in macedonia, but a lot also traveled between macedonia and kosovo as well since there was no real effort from both sides in controlling the border until recent times......

In macedonia itself its a known fact that some of the ancient illyrians that roam around macedonia are infact recent arrivals from kosovo - thats the talk i heard anyway from a lot of people there.

Basically this is the point…many refugees came to Macedonia and sdsm gave the citizenship. Their going back to Kosovo or into the west has little merit to Epirots argument…as long as they are Macedonian citizens it doesn’t matter where they live as far as the census and the magical 25 percent are concerned.

Do you recall the not so distant news report about arguments in parliament of when the census should be held…the Albanians wanted in summer so that people living abroad could drop in on holiday and count for the census. The real kicker was the added argument that the Macedonian census should not be held on the same day as the Kosovo census…ahhh why…..so that the same Albanian living abroad could drop by Kosovo and do his census then drive down to Macedonian and be counted in Macedonia also and just to add salt to this wound when after finishing his duties in Kosovo and wants to drive down to Macedonia he will bring his cousin and friend in the car because they also have Macedonian citizenship and tada Macedonia has a huge number of Albanians and the Albanians will try to explain it as that just how many are in Macedonia now give us rights according to the FA agreement otherwise why the bitch fight about the date of the census and further why should the Kosovo census date have any relevance to when Macedonia has the census. The Albanians are behaving like tricky Greek…but then again the only real difference in many cases is just thinking you are Greek.

[Pelister]

The increase in the number of Albanians from 1950 to about 2000 is unnatural.

Most of these Albanians should be classed as 'enemy aliens'. The same Albanians tried to crush us in 2001. The Macedonian government should have regarded these 100,000 or so Albanians as enemies of the State, and a serious 'security threat'. Consequently they should have their citizenship revoked. I don't mean 'everyone'. I mean Albanian emigrants who have arrived from Kosovo in the last 20 years.

I don't care what they do then. They can fk off back to Kosovo or Albania, but they will NEVER be citizens of Macedonia.

[julie]

If a recent refugee granted citizenship in Australia commits a crime, they are expelled.
Albanians tote guns and shoot randomly at their "weddings" and are free to do so, why can't Macedonia expel these low lifes?

[Big Bad Sven]

The increase in the number of Albanians from 1950 to about 2000 is unnatural.

Most of these Albanians should be classed as 'enemy aliens'. The same Albanians tried to crush us in 2001. The Macedonian government should have regarded these 100,000 or so Albanians as enemies of the State, and a serious 'security threat'. Consequently they should have their citizenship revoked. I don't mean 'everyone'. I mean Albanian emigrants who have arrived from Kosovo in the last 20 years.

I don't care what they do then. They can fk off back to Kosovo or Albania, but they will NEVER be citizens of Macedonia.

I have to agree with you my friend.

I dont buy that the reason for their crazy boom in numbers is due to having lots of children (it is perhaps a small piece of the puzzle though). Look at the Roma, they have even more kids in their family then the shiptars, and their numbers haven't increased as dramatically as the shiptars.

The roma have always lived in macedonia, while their was a huge exodus of shiptars to Switzerland and Italy in the 80's to today from macedonia - yet amazingly their numbers kept on increasing.

I am very convinced that the increase of albanians in macedonia is due to slow migration of shiptars throughout the yugoslav federation during tito's time, and a huge boom in their numbers during the kosovo crisis and a decade of a poorly administered kosovo-macedonian border.

[Big Bad Sven]

Anyway, arent a lot of the "generals" that thought in the shiptar side in the macedonian "civil-war" scum bags that lived in kosovo and now live in mountainous huts in macedonia?

[Onur]

I am very convinced that the increase of albanians in macedonia is due to slow migration of shiptars throughout the yugoslav federation during tito's time, and a huge boom in their numbers during the kosovo crisis and a decade of a poorly administered kosovo-macedonian border.

When you look at the census figures of Macedonia from 1950s to 1990s, you can clearly see that Turkish and some Torbeshi people along with them has been deported to Turkey by Tito and their place immediately replaced by more Albanians. I remember that there was about 250.000 Turks in Macedonia in 1950s and Albanian population was about half of the Turks and during Tito regime, Turkish people dropped below 100.000 and Albanians quadrupled `till you gain your independence.

Central and western Macedonian villages was populated with Turks `till 1970s but all are Albanian villages anymore. During my e-mail conversation with a Turkish teacher from Macedonia, last month, she told me that there is no Turkish classes in Debar and Albanian mayor/governor doesn't allow them to do so and when they gone to him to speak about it, he teases with them like "you can learn Turkish from your series on tv".


Funny enough, i have seen 3-4 Albanians in this forum, claiming that there is no Turkish or Torbeshi people in Macedonia and every muslim were/are Albanians and Tito only deported Albanians to Turkey. When i showed them population figures of Albanians quadrupling while Turks dropping to half during that 50 years, none of them could give me a proper answer.


As far as i read from web sites, Turkish minority of Macedonia giving so much importance to this year`s census because they say that in the previous one, Albanian officials falsified the papers and changed the ethnicity notes from Turkish to Albanian. This year, they will try to prevent this happening again but i saw another disappointing article few days ago; They suspect that only Albanians will be appointed as census officers in Turkish populated places and Turkish minority fears that they will falsify the papers again. They say that it will be a scandal if Turkish people wouldn't be appointed as officers for Turkish villages, towns.

[Mastika]

Onur, Turks being counted as Albanians may certainly be true in some cases, however there are many more cases of non-Turks being counted as Turks. For example the following is a list of villages where Turks supposedly live (and number of official 'Turks'), despite the fact that these villages are inhabited by Macedonian Muslims.

STRUGA - 2689
Boroec (175), Labunista (879), Podgorci (564), Oktisi (1071)

DEBAR/MALA REKA - 5754
Bajramovci (177), Brostica (124), Golem Papradnik (799), Gorenci - Debarsko (221), Mal Papradnik (455), Crno Boci (40), Gorno Kosovrasti (222), Dzepiste (276), Otisani (176), Mogorce (376), Dolno Kosovrasti (224), Rostusa (427), Skudrinja (1629), Prisojnica (66), Adzievci (56), Jance (33), Velebrdo (132), Vidusa (24), Trebiste (277), Zirovnica (20)

KICEVO - 5195
Lisicani (1126), Plasnica (2250), Preglovo (1070), Orehovec (128), Iziste (53), Celopeci (276), Drugovo (128), Srbjani (164)

RESEN - 179
Gorna Bela Crkva (73), Kozjak (106)

PRILEP - 2826
Jakrenovo (59), Lazani (402), Debreste (2088), Pestalevo (44), Crniliste (26), Sazdevo (207)

TETOVO - 1179
Jelovjane (539), Urvic (640)

SKOPJE - 3485
Batinci (407), Pagarusa (226), Kolicani (1507), Elovo (247), Malciste (51), Cvetovo (805), Drzilovo (242)

Rest of Macedonia - 1167
Melnica (378), Milino (21), Vinicani (22), Vodovrati (16), Kocilari (19), Crveni Bregovi (17), Tremnik (85), Pepeliste (33), Bistrenci (39), Koresnica (188), Prdzevo (23), Crnik (326)

This adds up to 22474 persons, who are officially ‘Turkish’, yet who are really Macedonian Muslims. Mind you, this estimate is only of the villages where it is much easier to get a figure of the Macedonian Muslims who claim to be Turks, if you factor in the population in the cities, this figure could realistically be close to 40,000 people (meaning that the Turkish population is less than half of what it officially claims to be). If my estimate is to be used as a rough guide, then over 25% of the ‘Turkish’ population in Macedonia comprises of Macedonian Muslims living in Villages. The census is extremely flawed, and should be taken with a pinch of salt, so to speak.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Onur, Turks being counted as Albanians may certainly be true in some cases, however there are many more cases of non-Turks being counted as Turks.

There are several cases where Albanians wrongly claim Macedonian and Turkish Muslims. Are you implying that Turks try to force-assimilate Macedonians more than the Albanians do?

[Mastika]

There are several cases where Albanians wrongly claim Macedonian and Turkish Muslims. Are you implying that Turks try to force-assimilate Macedonians more than the Albanians do?

No, not at all. I felt the need however to reinforce the fact that nearly half of the 'Turkish' minority in Macedonia is in fact not Turkish at all.

I was just making the point to Onur, that despite some efforts made by Albanians to count Turks as albanians (which I don't condone), the official number of Turks in Macedonia is already grossly inflated. I strugle to understand the idea that Turkish leaders are looking so keenly towards this census, when the number of Turks has been inflated since the 1948 census.

[Onur]

I was just making the point to Onur, that despite some efforts made by Albanians to count Turks as albanians (which I don't condone), the official number of Turks in Macedonia is already grossly inflated. I strugle to understand the idea that Turkish leaders are looking so keenly towards this census

Mastika, these Macedonian muslims probably have Turkish parent(s) or relatives and they prefer to declare themselves as Turks. Same happens for Turkish people in Macedonia too. I heard that the Turkish families who have marriages with Albanians are under pressure by their Albanian relatives for declaring themselves as Albanians.

Btw, while i said "Turkish leaders", i meant the ones who lives in Macedonia, not the leaders of Turkey. So, the Turkish leaders of several associations in Macedonia are looking so keenly towards this census. They are trying to prevent Turks to declare themselves as Albanians because of the pressure from their Albanian relatives and also prevent Albanian census officers falsify the papers. Their only aim is preventing Albanization of Turkish minority which is what happening in Macedonia right now.

But be more specific pls, what you really wanna say? You mean that Turkey have some kind of secret agenda for Macedonia? Explain your thoughts.

the number of Turks has been inflated since the 1948 census.

The population of Turks dropped to 2/3rd in Macedonia for the last 60 years




If what you say about Macedonian muslims is the truth, then there is no more than 50.000 Turks in Macedonia atm. So, you both claim that some of these Turks are Macedonian muslims and Turkey has secret agenda for Macedonia based on less then 50.000 Turks in there? Choose one of your claims cuz you contradict yourself if you claim both. Or at least say that Turkey have secret agenda but we fail miserably with it since Turks are on the edge of extinction according to your claim and census results.

Also, Turkish minority of Macedonia feels like they are on the edge of extinction cuz more and more Turks are migrating into Turkey or EU and Albanians trying to assimilate the rest of them. Turks lives in Macedonia for 600+ years and even 1000+ years if we take account of the settlements in eastern Roman era(Oghuz, Cumans, Pecheneges etc.). You know, even some of your cities and towns has been created during Cuman and Turkish rule. This is a fact unlike the Albanian claims for Macedonia which are based on pure unprovable myths about Illyria. You Mastika, don't need to care about this fact but i think at least you gotta respect their feelings about the possible extinction of them.