Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Bill77]

No offence taken mate.

Yes Indi i supported it, and i still do. But that does not mean i should close my eyes to what might be an outcome if our wish comes true.

You for one are aware how the mentality works with some citizens in the Republic. When i once asked that the citizens should rebel and take to the streets, you sounded that it was a lost cause because they are all "state manufactured" or something along those lines. Another words, you also agree with me, we have big problems with the mentality off many citizens in Macedonia. Now is that flip flopping? or just calling a spade a spade.

Sorry if you took it another way. Its also frustrating for me when i can't properly explain my self.



And if you have issues with my defending Ivanov posts, before i explain it, let me tell you i could also post negative points about him don't wary about that. But in this case regarding his speech infront of parliament, you got to give a little credit where credit is due. He finally did say a few things that should be encouraged and we should be, just quietly celebrating. If people can't see those particular comments he made encouraging, then i could not take those people seriously.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

this is where they belong, all traitors to the Macedonian cause bro

Julie, this is where the UMD has failed us very badly as an NGO. They are very quick (hardly) to seek Macedonian human rights in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania yet say nothing about our rights within the Republic of Macedonia - Interim Agreement, name issue etc.

Working with criminals (politicians) is the same as being one yourself.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The worst that can happen is the opposition party (SDSM) come into power then god help us.......will these Serbian flag waving fools use this withdrawal and twist it abuse it to their favour, and will the strong percentage, "that are ignorant" fall for it?

Most Macedonians have already stated that they are not prepared to change their state identity for the sake of entering the EU. Is it that unthinkable to pull out? What if such a move reinvigorated the determination of Macedonians to claim their integrity as a people at the table of nations?

SOM, looking at your latest thread, we have Patriots, Traitors, enemies, ignorant. Now if Ivanov or Gruevski firstly has the power to walk away and they do, would you agree we would have Patriots in one corner, and the rest (Traitors, enemies, ignorant) in the other corner. Now would you think the rest, would outnumber the Patriots? If so, then where do we go from there.

Bill, I don't know what the percentage of each group is, that is why I started the other thread. What I can say is that those in the 'ignorant' group could easily be swayed to become patriotic were we to have a leadership that actually respected itself in the international arena. It is DPMNE's lack of integrity, pride and principle that allows SDS to worm its way into the minds of Macedonians in the republic.

[Bill77]

Most Macedonians have already stated that they are not prepared to change their state identity for the sake of entering the EU. Is it that unthinkable to pull out? What if such a move reinvigorated the determination of Macedonians to claim their integrity as a people at the table of nations?

no its not unthinkable at all. All i was trying to do was quash any scaremongering theories that we would somehow be dealt with by someone outside our borders. Then i just gave a most likely scenario imo, of what would be the worst that can happen . If anyone can't see there want be some sort of turmoil amongst the political parties and there followers, which will then possibly drag in the neutrals, then thats there opinion and thats fair enough. But its better to discuss the possible scenarios now then to scratch our heads later.
I just believe my scenario is more realistic than Greece or Bulgaria invading us.

SOM, let me for a second touch on this point, You said "Most Macedonians have already stated that they are not prepared to change their state identity for the sake of entering the EU."

That is fact and its very good news. what i am concerned about, is, it does not specify if most Macedonians want to pull out of the talks! it only specifies "No name change for sake of entering EU" That could mean keep the negotiation going just don't you dare buckle and sell our name. The Government can claim Thats exactly what they currently doing (not changing our name). there is a difference. Put that statement up against the AMHRC campaign we all backed "Macedonians Demand End to Name Negotiations" is much more clearer.
Do you see where i am getting at with this?
I would prefer a survey and people to speak out and promote the campaign by AMHRC. That would guarantee "no change to their state identity for the sake of entering the EU".

[Soldier of Macedon]

That is fact and its very good news. what i am concerned about, is, it does not specify if most Macedonians want to pull out of the talks!

Good point Bill, there should be such a survey held in Macedonia.

[Phoenix]

Good point Bill, there should be such a survey held in Macedonia.

Is there any homegrown movement in Macedonia that is strongly anti the negotiation process...?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Not sure Phoenix, would be good to know, although one would think we would have heard of something by now.

[Phoenix]

Not sure Phoenix, would be good to know, although one would think we would have heard of something by now.

I reckon thats a huge part of the problem, the fact that there's no significant homegrown movements that are anti-negotiations, anti-EU and anti-NATO...the government is not under any form of popular pressure to cease any of these negotiations and is able to feed the population only its own agenda (rightly or wrongly)...thats why the AMHRC's 'no negotiations' campaign was of vital importance to raise awareness and hopefully 'influence' the growth of a different opinion amongst Macedonians in the Republic.

[Bill77]

what i am concerned about, is, it does not specify if most Macedonians want to pull out of the talks! it only specifies "No name change for sake of entering EU" That could mean keep the negotiation going just don't you dare buckle and sell our name. The Government can claim Thats exactly what they currently doing (not changing our name)...

.....I would prefer a survey and people to speak out and promote the campaign by AMHRC.

Here is yet another poll

IPR POLL: POLITICAL PARTIES' RATING STEADY, PRESIDENT'S ONE IN UPWARD TREND

IPR poll: Political parties' rating steady, President's one in upward trend

Skopje, 19 December 2010 (MIA) - The ruling VMRO-DPMNE still enjoys highest rating among Macedonia's population at 23,3 % followed by opposition SDSM at 11.4%, ruling coalition partner DUI - 6,9%; opposition New Democracy 1,5 and all other bellow 1%, say the results of latest poll of the Institute for Political Research in Skopje, conducted on December 10-14 on 1.110 respondents.

The highest rating regarding the confidence in politicians belongs to VMRO-DPMNE leader Nikola Gruevski – 45,9%, followed by President Gjorge Ivanov - 45,7%, Parliament Speaker Trajko Veljanoski - 39,6%, SDMS leader Branko Crvenkovski - 29,1%, DUI's Ali Ahmeti - 25%, DPA's Menduh Tachi - 13,7%.

The President's position on the name dispute with Greece is approved by 53,4% of the respondents.

Again, what a useless question. It poses more misleading results and confusion rather than answers.
I wished the question posed to the respondents was,
"Do you approve with the Presidents position on continuing negotiation"

[Risto the Great]

Here is a better question:

WTF is the President's position?

[George S.]

what's needed is a spanner in the works to say hey the people have spoken we will never negotiate & will not change any name.Once greece sees that it can't achieve its task to pressure the macedonian govt then they'll slink away.

[Bill77]

Here is a better question:

WTF is the President's position?

Good question. We can only guess. I would assume they are referring to Ivanov not signing away "YET" as some sort of stance.

But here are a couple of more questions.

* How many of these 53.4% respondents actually think negotiations are a waist of time and it should end? i would not be surprised if the majority think that way. Therfor, why don't they rephrase the question?

* Does this also mean that we are left with a high number of 46.6% don't agree with the President?

* What don't they agree to?

* And how many of those 46.6% found the question, a trick question and refused to answer a loose/loose situation type of a question?

[Bill77]

what's needed is a spanner in the works to say hey the people have spoken we will never negotiate & will not change any name.Once greece sees that it can't achieve its task to pressure the macedonian govt then they'll slink away.

Unfortunately this latest poll endorses the negotiations because of the way the question was worded. Thats how i see it.

[Vangelovski]

Good question. We can only guess. I would assume they are referring to Ivanov not signing away "YET" as some sort of stance.

But here are a couple of more questions.

* How many of these 53.4% respondents actually think negotiations are a waist of time and it should end? i would not be surprised if the majority think that way. Therfor, why don't they rephrase the question?

* Does this also mean that we are left with a high number of 46.6% don't agree with the President?

* What don't they agree to?

* And how many of those 46.6% found the question, a trick question and refused to answer a loose/loose situation type of a question?

Bill77,

Haven't you been defending Ivanov in a number of posts? Now you say you don't actually know what his position is? What were you defending up until now?

[George S.]

as rtg stated what is the presidents stand on the negotiation.Does he intend to negotiate.Is he just trying to look as if he's negotiating but not doing anything???Yes it's a trick question. that is support for ivanov is the same as support for the negotiations.It should be more direct do you approve of the negotiations on macedonia's name.???