Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[makedonche]

Pelister
Agreed wholeheartedly, perhaps we need to start our own threads/campaigns to shift the discussion from a "name dispute" to a position of no compromise, no change, no negotiation and keep putting it out there that this is who we are, we're not changing!

[makedonche]

OK, I may have misunderstood you.

Post first "democratic" multi-party elections, held in Nov 1990, the new parliament, following the formation of the "Ekspertska Vlada" (Government of Experts or Technocrats) in March 1991, voted (it is said to be on April 16, which makes sense to me) to amend the existing constitution of SRM and this came into force on June 7, 1991.

Below info to confirm the above:

Indigen
Many thanks for this, and the other thread you commenced, It will clear up a lot of misconceptions and allow MTO members to speak with clarity/accuracy and have a point of reference!

[fyrOM]

Vangelovski if you read the sentence where Democratic ect is used I am actually saying I have never in any thread advocated a change of name but maybe I didn’t make it clear that in one thread historically I did say I didn’t see a problem with the word Democratic to qualify my statement in case some smart observer comes back saying yeah but you did once remember and maybe it my lack of understanding why there is a problem with this prefix other than it is irrelevant because we don’t have another Macedonia as Germany had an east and west with differing ideologies. If anyone knows why this prefix is bad please feel free to do so. I saw it in the sense of for example having Socialist as a prefix had we wanted to be socialists but not affecting our identity.

Maybe my post was too longwinded and it bore you before you could finished it. The purpose was to examine as many angles rather than have a comeback saying what do you mean about this. I shall try to be brief. If you look at my post again you will notice

Macedonia is fast approaching this point of having to give a concrete reply. There is only one answer Macedonia can give without all out riots. This is a forgone conclusion.

What should Macedonia do. End the discussions as you say but when and what else can any of us do to prepare for this inevitable conclusion and steer to a more favourable reaction.

I could not and would not advocate any change of name that would affect our identity. This is a struggle for our very existence. If we gave in would we not instantly be branded a bunch of new comers with no more claim to the land than any other new comers or so called older residents. This would give a definite green light to the Albanians who want to occupy western Macedonia to step up their action of seceding. After all Macedonia becomes a terra nullius so why shouldn’t the current occupants have a say if they want to be part of Albania. The loss of our name and identity has far reaching ramifications and would be an absolute disaster for us. The path to fulfilling the interim accord is to split Macedonia either by agreement or a path to surprise attack. This cannot be allowed to happen. And this is even before we consider what it does to our personal selves and sense and feelings about ourselves. Can you really utter the words I am not a Macedonian. I am some person from somewhere no one can exactly remember. Think of what this says for the people in any other part of Macedonia. A total disaster.

Abandoning the interim accord is inevitable. When and how only remains. It was put upon us at a weak moment. We should have been working as hard as we could to not be in such a weak position so that when the day came we would end the interim accord it would not be under the same circumstances as when we entered. I went on to say it is a pity our governments predecessors were more intent on building their own wealth as apposed to the countries. Traitors. Nothing less. We are not in an ideal place but when the music stops the dancing with the accord has to stop and a concrete decision will be expected. Did we use our time wisely enough. Are we prepared and what else can we do as quickly as possible.

Greece may want to fore another embargo. The eu may want to put restrictions on us. This is the fallout we should expect. Greece’s embargo would no doubt be bad but now there is no war in Serbia. They may be persuaded to participate in the embargo lest they disappoint their bum chums. How do we counter this.

Foreign friends and foreign investments. The gas line proposed through Macedonia is a god send. To get to Europe they need to go through Serbia. Leverage against them to not participate in an embargo. Eu and other foreign countries who have invested in Macedonia will be screaming at their governments not to impose an embargo or any restrictions. The government have been working hard towards this end. Will they have enough time to strengthen our position before the accord ends.

In today’s mass media and instant messaging the war on propaganda and the truth has reached almost equal footing with the war with guns and bombs. What have we prepared for the inevitable onslaught of propaganda by the Greeks and western media. It is no point telling people to wade through masses of books and articles. That is why I said a summarised timeline of Macedonian truth needs to be ready as preprepared answers which with minor modification can be adapted to counter any Greek misinformation. We cannot count on the government will do it for us all and we don’t need to anything. Even if the government took an active roll in the propaganda war is it not better if more voices join the government in shouting down the lies. We have Macedonians in many countries around the world. Many have achieved high levels of education. It is this resource we should be harnessing in the war of propaganda but unfortunately many like myself are not up to date as some in Macedonian history and so can contribute in whatever other way they can eg participating in protest marches signing petitions phone polls putting a positive word in work places ect.

Ending the accord is the only inevitable reply Macedonia can give. When this will happen will depend on the reforms and how long the government can keep talking to buy time but I don’t expect it to be too long maybe one and a half to two years. Are we preparing.

I hope this is clearer to you than my last post.

[Vangelovski]

OziMak,

Your contradictions and inconsistencies are amazing. Not only within this post, but also between this post and your last post. I asked you a simple question which you only spent 2.5 lines on answering...which was only part of an answer to part of my question. The (part) answer you provided was based on unreasoned and unsubstantiated assumptions usually put forth by our vassal politicians and their representatives in Macedonia and the Diaspora.

Your inability to understand why any name change, i.e., the addition of "Democratic", is detrimental is quite disturbing. Your equation of the "Democratic" prefix to the "Socialist" prefix is not only an inappropriate example seeing as the fundamental circumstances were different, but reeks of your pro-vassal leanings.

Further, your supposed opposition to a name change that would change our identity is another popular vassal argument repeated by the DPMNEovci these days. On the surface it is meant to appear as a patriotic and principled stand, but all it really means is that you would accept a name change and that you would then argue that it does not change our identity, and even if it does, at least we know who we are.

[lavce pelagonski]

Didnt Gruevski put out a decleration on VMRO'S 20th something about European Republic of Macedonia. The grks got nowhere to go.

[fyrOM]

Vangelovski I think if you read both posts side by side you will find their message is the same only the words have been changed a little to try and make it easier to understand.

As for the word Democratic as I mention it was historically raised in a different thread and at the time I didn’t see a problem with it other then it is irrelevant in the same sense as the word Socialist. I saw it as an ideological prefix and could not see what is wrong with it but would want to know why someone wants it and how does it differ from simply Republic of Macedonia. The most important question would be why is Greece accepting this if they were. Greeks lie. Anything they could agree to needs to be check again. I still don’t understand why it is bad but likewise nor why would you need it. Maybe you know more.

Your convenient line of questioning to get me to list all that would go wrong if the accord was abandoned immediately is rudimentary ploy when not everything is known so if I list a few things you say eh.. So few things and then as they are speculation they cannot always have firm foundations you pick them off and conclude you were absolutely right. One might reverse the question and say are you so sure everything would be business as usual tomorrow if the accord was brocken today and why.

You will note I am not advocating to follow through with the accord in all my post including the post with as you put it my ridiculous analogy. The constant is I am for playing along lying cheating and pretending until the time is right to declare the accord unworkable and void. In fact I say leaving the accord is the only inevitable conclusion without all out riots. The when and how is all there is to consider not the if.

Just to clarify the point some of you sound like you have been involved in Macedonian issues and organisation from a very long time. On the other hand the only Macedonian organisation I am a member of is the MTO and ofcourse by default the church as I am an orthodox Christian. So no I am not trying to plug any organisations agenda openly or subvertly. If somehow I have inadvertently lead you to think otherwise I can assure you there is no spy lurking amongst you. Before I start sounding like I protest too much with Macedonia’s history of traitors I think I can understand your concerns.

[Vangelovski]

OziMak,

I'll leave it to you to think about why any prefix is detrimental. Its been widely discussed on this forum, perhaps you can do a search and find the answer?

The Buktop School of Political Philosophy also advocates "leaving" the Accord at the "right time" (though, its head professor also believes it should also be done only if the cost is "right" as well). Maybe another 15-20 years? Though, by that stage, the Interim Accord may have been replaced by a more permanent Accord, thereby involving greater "risks" to "leaving" and it won't be the "right" time either. By then, an entire generation of "[insert name]" people will have grown up identifying themselves as "citizens of [insert state name here]" and it won't really be an issue anymore.

I'm sure that by 2025-30, the vassal politicians compromising our freedom and our future would have recieved their rewards (high profile positions across Europe, hefty salaries, lots of praise for being "statesmen" and making the "tough decisions" for the "good" of the regions "security" and "future" etc) and I'm sure they would throw some crumbs around to their cheerleaders for all the support in helping shape their careers.

[Risto the Great]

Ozimak, if you and Buktop were in the same room, would you be wearing the same underwear?

This is starting to feel a bit like Batman and Bruce Wayne never being in the same room at the same time.

[Buktop]

OziMak,

I'll leave it to you to think about why any prefix is detrimental. Its been widely discussed on this forum, perhaps you can do a search and find the answer?

The Buktop School of Political Philosophy also advocates "leaving" the Accord at the "right time" (though, its head professor also believes it should also be done only if the cost is "right" as well). Maybe another 15-20 years? Though, by that stage, the Interim Accord may have been replaced by a more permanent Accord, thereby involving greater "risks" to "leaving" and it won't be the "right" time either. By then, an entire generation of "[insert name]" people will have grown up identifying themselves as "citizens of [insert state name here]" and it won't really be an issue anymore.

I'm sure that by 2025-30, the vassal politicians compromising our freedom and our future would have recieved their rewards (high profile positions across Europe, hefty salaries, lots of praise for being "statesmen" and making the "tough decisions" for the "good" of the regions "security" and "future" etc) and I'm sure they would throw some crumbs around to their cheerleaders for all the support in helping shape their careers.

If it took 15-20 years to secure our unlimited sovereignty and respect, I would gladly sacrifice that time in a heartbeat... 15-20 years of my life, or our life is nothing to me if my children and grandchildren can freely call their themselves and their country Macedonia. Vangelovski is so selfish that he would screw future generations out of their birth right, just to say that he was the one that did something for 2 minutes out of Macedonia's history.

Your short term mentality is what is wrong with us. You would rather screw Macedonia for the next 100 years just to get half a years satisfaction, and that is where we differ. I would gladly give 20 years of my life if the outcome was 100 years of Macedonian sovereignty and dignity.

The means justify the ends, and Vangelovski doesn't care about the repercussions of his actions.

[Buktop]

Ozimak, if you and Buktop were in the same room, would you be wearing the same underwear?

This is starting to feel a bit like Batman and Bruce Wayne never being in the same room at the same time.

Starting to feel as if you are losing the plot majstore

[Vangelovski]

If it took 15-20 years to secure our unlimited sovereignty and respect, I would gladly sacrifice that time in a heartbeat... 15-20 years of my life, or our life is nothing to me if my children and grandchildren can freely call their themselves and their country Macedonia. Vangelovski is so selfish that he would screw future generations out of their birth right, just to say that he was the one that did something for 2 minutes out of Macedonia's history.

Your short term mentality is what is wrong with us. You would rather screw Macedonia for the next 100 years just to get half a years satisfaction, and that is where we differ. I would gladly give 20 years of my life if the outcome was 100 years of Macedonian sovereignty and dignity.

The means justify the ends, and Vangelovski doesn't care about the repercussions of his actions.

Buktop,

Noone ever said anything would be easy or quick - though I don't personally consider this particular issue needed the past 15 years, let alone another 15 years. You've made it quite obvious that YOUR particular "waiting" theory is nothing but a deflection to keep us in chains. I'm sure that you would gladly sacrifice not only the next 100 years of your family's lives, but of the entire Macedonian nation in order to maintain the vassalage you are defending.

[Risto the Great]

Starting to feel as if you are losing the plot majstore

Not at all. Just hoping you would honour your sig file and answer my questions put to you around a week ago.
If I was losing the plot, the clue is you would be agreeing with me.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

Noone ever said anything would be easy or quick. You've made it quite obvious that YOUR particular "waiting" theory is nothing but a deflection to keep us in chains.

And how have you come to that conclusion? How have I been deceiving you? How have I been promoting subservience rather than subversiveness in relation to the binding chains?

[Buktop]

Not at all. Just hoping you would honour your sig file and answer my questions put to you around a week ago.
If I was losing the plot, the clue is you would be agreeing with me.

Risto, I did not intentionally avoid your questions and I will answer them shortly, unfortunately, I had a very serious family issue to attend to that I would not like to discuss on the forum. I wish you to know that I did not purposely avoid your questions.

[Vangelovski]

How have I been promoting subservience rather than subversiveness in relation to the binding chains?

Buktop, is your real name George Orwell?

Supporting the very mechanisms that enslave us indicate you are SUBSERVIENT.