Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Prolet]

Risto, In a recent poll in Stari Kraj only 9% of the people there said they would accept Vardarska Makedonija should we be forced to change our name so i wouldnt wary about it.

[Onur]

Onur, Why is the EU so affraid of Turkey joining the EU? Turkey has been a member of the oldest European Organization the Council of Europe which Macedonia is currently the rotating President so why is it a problem if Turkey joins the EU?

Turkey signed several agreements with them at the first days of the union at 1960s and we are joining their meetings for 50 years. Did you know that they invited us to be full member of them at 1970s? They were only an economical union of commerce at that time but our lefty government refused to join them by saying that European goods can invade Turkish market and could damage our own industry.

Then we tried to be the member again at 1990s, after they became EU but this time Greek vetoes started. They mainly don't want us because of our population. According to the laws of EU, you can have your representatives in the parliament depending on your country`s population. If they accepts Turkey, then Turkish parliamentarians will be the 2nd majority after Germans, outpacing French. Also they don't want to have a mainly muslim populated country in the EU.

I never supported EU since 1990s because to me, EU is just an union of western Europeans like Germans, French, Austrians and British. Other countries like Hungary, Greece, Bulgaria are just second, low degree members. EU is ruled by French, Germans and British. I agree to Nicholas Sarkozy on that, Turkey doesn't have a place in an union of western Europeans. Turkey can only settle with Balkan countries, Hungary and Italy but not with the real owners of the EU, Germans and French.

[Buktop]

LMAO, if you are Batman is Meto the boy wonder?
seriously Buktop, I would like your opinion on some issues
1. Do you support the negotiations of our name
2. Are you on the UMD board
3. are you in support of the Accord?
4. Are you Macedonian

cheers

1. No, but see them as more of a diversionary tactic rather than actual negotiations.

2. No

3. No

4. Yes

Cheers

[Buktop]

Is that when Meto moves from the bedroom to the bathroom?

You may be right, it could have been a bowel movement

I cannot make a distinction Buktop.

Seriously, why the scare mongering with the consequences of straying from compliance?

you may call it scare mongering, but I call it strategic planning. I believe in a free and prosperous Macedonia, but I believe that we can avoid future turmoil, and prevent harm to our country and our people by preparing now. Patience is a virtue my friend.

[Buktop]

OziMak, brilliant post!!! Loved every word.

[Risto the Great]

Im no wiz at these things so I could be off base but are you seeing this interim accord thing from a hollier than though position. I know Australia is the lucky country and the USA see themselves as Gods country but lets not forget how this interim agreement came about.

In my simple view of things I kind of liken it to someone living in a town where all the big guys there who either own most of the businesses there or can influence the remainder of the business owners not to hire this person for any job. Faced with no income they put the hard word on her to go into their xxx rated business. The bills start mounting and the cupboards starts looking bare she calls the big bosses and says maybe but she doesn’t know where to start. The boss guy says sure come on over and we will tak about it. He has this great Greek style movie he wants her to star in. The first thing you need to tdo is pick the right porn name to act under. You know the name of the first street you lived in and your favourite pets name ect. Think about it on your way to our office and we will have the contracts ready.

She heads off with her friend to act as her agent to negotiate the deal. Many call him a pimp. So they talk about it and get close to some kind of an agreement and sign an interim accord. She is now allowed to trade and gets to work and trade with other businesses in the town while she figures out a porn name. Money starts coming in and she can pay her bills and put some decent food on the table. But every so often she gets a phone call about hows she going with picking that name thing.

Her relatives who live in distant places start gossiping how her friends as managers have each been pimps and how she’s a dumb slut and should instead tough it out no matter what. Her family can eat salt and paprika pepper and not stoop to any movie let alone a Greek style movie.

In the mean time she shows the other bosses in the town how good she is at running a business and suggest they skip the whole porn thing and let her join the town commerse committee anyway. She also makes friends with businesses in other towns and 127 or 128 of them want to be friends with her. The boss guy gets wind of this and jumps up and down and says we had a deal here. Ive got your signature and uses his unique privileged voting rights to deny her rights to join the commerse committee no matter how good she is at running a business. Bend over or go to Coventry.

All her relatives living abroad point the finger at the accord and call her a slut. How could you sign an aggreement and how can you keep meeting with these guys to talk about picking a porn name. Some of her kids start saying its easy for their cousins in distant lands to point and talk while eating their roast beef sandwidge. Time goes by and the kids grow up. Some of the older kids are about the age there mum was when the interim agreement was signed and cant imagin following through with it if they were faced with this deal. They start to revolt and start saying they would rather play with the kids in the other towns then let this happen. Some kids whine about how unfair it is not to play in their own town. They are joined by thse foreign kids who no one really knows how they got there but seem to have lived in her backyard forever keep up the whining after all its not like she’s never done it before just this time it will be on film and under a porn name big deal. One bright spark nicknamed red bones says he will act as her agent if everyone votes him in the position and vows to get the job done even if he has to drag here there with a rope around her neck and dack her himself.

Her courent agent some say pimp takes the boss to court for not honnering some of the conditions of the contract. Mortified some of the kids and the cousins overseas bicker over the proceedings calling him a pimp and her a slut and have him and anyone who wants to take his place or agrees with his actions excommunicated. How dare he want to enforce the agreement while claiming he want to save her reputation. Traitor pimp. And glaring eyes go on anyone agreeing with the court case or her agent.

Meanwhile her agent has been travelling around and spending many nights in hotel rooms. He comes back home with news of new friendships. He manges her investments well and thing start to look up but because of her previouse managers missmanagement he starts from a low position and even with his efforts not everthing is well and many point to the mountain of defficentcies and blaim his efforts and call him a pimp. Bickering goes on at home and overseas.

Some say he did the court case to get a court rulling that the boss broke the agrreement first and so he and his clent are blameless. Some say he did a greek style himself in a threesom with the german and her black buddy to get her to think about changing the rules of voting to her commerse committee. If this isn’t the definition of a hero what is.

Doubting Thomases from home and abroad shake their hollier than though heads at her and mutter slut under their breaths for even signing a contract. How could she even think of signing a contract. Doesn’t it mean she seriously considered doing it. What if she got the wrong manager like the one who robbed her money but now vowes to complete the job. What if things went wrong. How could she put herself so close to the edge that her feet are hanging over the edge. Dumb slut and pimp. And the bickering goes on.

Are we about there yet.

Is it a risky play. Your damd right it is. Is it not fair. With your extensive knowledge of Macedonian history has anything ever been fair with Macedonia.

By all means keep up the pressure and never forget to remind those touting the government line on a daily basis that its all pretend remember just incase they start beliving their own words from repeating them so often. Mums no slut at least not under a made up porn name.

And just to answer Julies questions and qualify myself.

1. No I am not for negotiating our name. it is the be all and end all as everything else hangs off it. Without it we will be less then the jews when they were scattered around the world before Israel because we do not have their numbers nor clout. I am for lying cheating and pretending to if it furthers Macedonia and the Macedonia cause.

2. I have no affiliation with the UMD let alone their board. Only as previously stated in other threads I think the have a cool name but there unpolished awkwardness at least from what I have read thus far do not inspire me to think they are up to the task.

3. See No. 1

4. Ethnically I am a Macedonian and an Australian citizen. Just for my own curiosity as stated in a different thread I have ordered the igenea dna test.

OM, she was eating fine ... even at the worst of times.
Now she is going to court to confirm how much of a slut she was.
She is indeed a slut and the pimp should be shot.
Stick to pornos.

[fyrOM]

Just thought you might want to see the Pimps reply. He s one of your mob you should trust him more.

Gruevski's VMRO-DPMNE does not intend to trade with the interests of its people

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=74746195&lId=1

Skopje, June 15, 2010 (Reuters) - VMRO-DPMNE does not intend to trade with the interests of its people, with anyone or anything, tonight said Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski said in his address at the celebration marking the 20th anniversary of the party he leads.

- If you come to resolve the dispute, the campaign will hold a referendum. This is an issue to be solved with reason. At the same time, clearly advise that we will not allow us to take what is ours. Do not deny entry to NATO and the EU do not give up reforms, stressed Gruevski rodendenskiot happening in downtown Skopje.

On the occasion dvedeceniskoto existence of the ruling party, a celebration held under the motto "For the motherland is - 20 years VMRO-DPMNE, said tonight and Vlado Trntalovski, one of the founders of the party, and caul Henry, director of the office of the Foundation Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Skopje.

Attendees are citizens of the drazhava, party members and government representatives from other political parties - the coalition partner of VMRO-DPMNE and mayors from its ranks.

On this central celebration and preceded a series of events - promotions, panel discussions and debates on topics related to the history of the party and current events.

[Risto the Great]

Just thought you might want to see the Pimps reply. He s one of your mob you should trust him more.

Gruevski's VMRO-DPMNE does not intend to trade with the interests of its people

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=74746195&lId=1

Skopje, June 15, 2010 (Reuters) - VMRO-DPMNE does not intend to trade with the interests of its people, with anyone or anything, tonight said Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski said in his address at the celebration marking the 20th anniversary of the party he leads.

- If you come to resolve the dispute, the campaign will hold a referendum. This is an issue to be solved with reason. At the same time, clearly advise that we will not allow us to take what is ours. Do not deny entry to NATO and the EU do not give up reforms, stressed Gruevski rodendenskiot happening in downtown Skopje.

On the occasion dvedeceniskoto existence of the ruling party, a celebration held under the motto "For the motherland is - 20 years VMRO-DPMNE, said tonight and Vlado Trntalovski, one of the founders of the party, and caul Henry, director of the office of the Foundation Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Skopje.

Attendees are citizens of the drazhava, party members and government representatives from other political parties - the coalition partner of VMRO-DPMNE and mayors from its ranks.

On this central celebration and preceded a series of events - promotions, panel discussions and debates on topics related to the history of the party and current events.

Which mob are you from OM?
I really would like an answer on this.

Gruevski talked about a referendum again. That confirms he and I are not in the same mob.

[fyrOM]

You wouldn’t be a lawyer would you RTG. The word nigger is just the same word and can be said in exactly the same tone but no one would say it is exactly the same if a white man said it to a black man as apposed to a black man saying it to a black man or to put it in local and albeit lesser term wog.

The term one of your mob I would think is even less in intensity than wog. I am sure you already know the deffinition of the term and when it can accsionaly be used as a derogatory term and when its not so your question seems unusual.

Just to remove any other variables some on this site have identified themselves as their background from Prilep while others have said their backgound is from Bitola. If they were discussing what they thought of a third person also from Bitola and what his thoughts were on developing the Prilep Bitola region. If the first person from Bitola expressed some doubts about the third person and received an answer like he seems ok to me he s one of your mob you ought to trust him more. Which mob do you think their talking about. All three are Macedonians. Could it just simply mean from your parts.

Some of the vigor expressed in posts in different threads by many different people has been surprising to say the least. Sometimes nitpicking even on spelling as if it somehow discredits or negates the point of someone they are debating with. I am relatively new to this site and unfamiliar with the history between people but I can understand how this can become an additional factor on top of the correct scrutiny posts should be put to ensure the integrity of information and debates and the propriety of the site.

As a kid in the playground I had some Macedonian kids from egej Macedonia come up to me and say hey we heard you were Macedonian. Which part of Macedonia are you from. When I told them their first response was Oh… some small talk then left. I though to myself a bit strange and insulting. I had a similar situation as an adult and though some people grow up but it doesn’t mean they mature. Likewise I have heard Macedonians from a RoM background respond in similar ways to Macedonians from egej Macedonia. Fortunately there have been few experiences like these. Having experienced it I can imaging how it felt to the people experiencing it in reverse.

As I said I am new to this site and so we really do not know each other although I expect this to change with the course of time. I think I can understand where your question is coming from but I can assure you nothing unterward was intended.

Having identified Gruevski as being from your mob and seemingly promoting and defending him in this thread and others I hope you can see I could not be using the term in any derogatory sense while at the sametime supporting him let alone against any other Macedonian from Egejska Macedonia.

[Makedonetz]

All this BS let the greeks fule the fire because the backdraft will bite them in the ass

[Bratot]

Good point Bratot. Are they saying we can have all the parts where the Vardar crosses.

The Vardar or Axios (Macedonian: About this sound Вардар (help·info); Greek: Αξιός Axiós or Βαρδάρης Vardárīs) is the longest and major river in the Republic of Macedonia and also a major river of Greece. It is 388 km (241 mi) long, and drains an area of around 25,000 km2 (9,653 sq mi). The maximum depth of river is 30 m (98 ft).
Map of northwestern Macedonia showing the Vardar

The river rises at Vrutok, a few kilometers north of Gostivar in the Republic of Macedonia. It passes through Gostivar, Skopje and into Veles, crosses the Greek border near Gevgelija, Polykastro and Axioupoli ("town on the Axiós"), before emptying into the Aegean Sea in Central Macedonia west of Thessaloniki in northern Greece.

OMG another territorial claim!

[fyrOM]

As to the political question of the change of name and a referendum I understand that you have stated numerous times you are against the interim accord and any referendum but I hope you can understand the weakened and impoverished position Macedonia was put in after leaving Yugoslavia.

For any shortcomings of the politicians of the day one needs to show credit that at least they managed to leave Yugoslavia with the name still not abandoned and the nation with a bloodless exit unlike every other republic bar Montenegro who chose to buckle under pressure and stay within Yugoslavia until the dust settled and extracted themselves when they thought it was safer to do so. Even this option would have been a disaster for us as undoubtable many Macedonians would have been drafted into Yugoslavias/Serbias wars with almost certain loss of life.

I have previously stated in other threads I have distant cousins in my wider family who were or still are policemen. One told me that when the Serbs left they took with them anything of value that was not nailed down with no unclear terms of threat if opposed. I can agree with you it is great if one can stand firm and show you have lead in your pencil and not accept other peoples unfavourable terms but sometimes circumstances do not offer us this option.

Coming from an impoverished position the following embargo was a noose around the country threatening to strangle her until she relented or crumbled. Is it unfair the rest of the world allowed this to happen. Damn right it was. Is it a step backwards. No. It was a half step backwards as it didn’t completely relent on the name. Kind of like differing the question until we can work on strengthening our position. It is unfortunate that some of our politicians ended up being traitors more intent on building their personal fortunes rather than building the country and our position. Having an extensive knowledge of Macedonian history I can imagine this did not come to you with too much surprise. Oh You are a traitor surprise not that a traitor showed up at all.

I think we finally have a Prime Minister who is genuine and with the President genuinely want to see Macedonia move forward. I think they inherited a weakened position from their predecessors out of a combination of ineptness weakness and greed.

Faced with the position they inherited I think they have battled admirably but also realise their power is not absolute nor infinite. They know that most ethnic Macedonians are against any name change but equally the ethnic Albanians are for a change. This leaves the other minorities to be convinced one way or the other. Also there are some ethic Macedonians if polls are to be believed who don’t care about the name if it means getting into nato and the eu for their own enrichment.

Realising the position is not unanimous and that ballots can sometimes mysteriously elect governments when polls show 90 percent voting the other way I think they have taken considered steps to counter any such possibilities.

They have tried to engage the other minorities and flip the ethnic Albanians demands for proportional representation to include other minorities and thereby dilute the ethnic Albanians numbers and power and thus dilute any Yes vote.

They both have tried to build up Macedonia’s economy and improve education welfare and social services as well as trying to tackle corruption. Although I am sure Jankovska will have a bit to say on the last point but I would remind her what she already knows that in Macedonia as is the Balkans in general people do not hold positions only because of merit and usually there is a network of people supporting each other. To move on one is to move on many and sometimes it just takes time to create the right environment to be able to move on them. By improving economic and social matters there is less reason for desperation and it to some extent silences those who would seek a change simply out of pure greed.

Internal improvements can last very little without external support and economic trade and investment. They both have travelled extensively and have made many such ties most relevant of which is non eu countries in case the eu well dries up.

By proceeding with the reforms they have the added benefit of modernising Macedonia’s institutions regardless even if it wasn’t for the eu. But by doing them as part of being on the road to the eu and as such implying a solution can be found they have secured funds for the reforms and infrastructure developments and subsidies to provide a respite to the rural sector which probably needed it most.

They have also tried to encourage the diaspora to get their papers in order both by sending teams into the diaspora and the heavy handed approach of not letting people exit Macedonia without all their papers in order. The diasporas apathy to act is almost as great as their loudness in apposing any name change. By doing these measures they are trying to shore up as many certain No votes as they can.

The above steps are not of a man ready to betray us. Is continued talk of the interim accord concerning. Yes but a necessary evil as outlined above considering it was inherited.

His actions point against a betrayal. His body language also is in line with this thought and my personal opinion I think that because his roots are from Egejska Macedonia the events and horrors there are more real to him than most Macedonians from RoM even though like them he didn’t personally see it but his immediate family did and those stories would have echoed in his home as he was growing up. It is from this position I said your mob.

None the less I think they have tried everything they could think off and was in their power to do to prepare the country if they were removed from office one way or other to carry a No vote.

Everything I have heard or seen of them in particular Gruevski only because I have see him more often tells me I cannot believe he would give up the name and can only think he genuinely wants to improve the country. Is he siphoning a bit off. Its hard to say from the clips I have seen of him. I can only say he is a politician and as the Macedonian saying says moticata secogas trga na kaj tebe but if any I doubt it would be anything like his predecessors.

Internal improvements can last very little without external support and economic trade and investment. They both have travelled extensively and have made many such ties most relevant of which are non eu countries in case the eu well dries up.

By proceeding with the reforms they have the added benefit of modernising Macedonia’s institutions regardless even if it wasn’t for the eu. But by doing the as part of being on the road to the eu and as such implying a solution can be found they have secured funds for the reforms and infrastructure developments and subsidies to provide a respite to the rural sector which probably needed it most.

They have also tried to encourage the diaspora to get their papers in order both by sending teams into the diaspora and the heavy handed approach of not letting people exit Macedonia without all their papers in order. The diasporas apathy to act is almost as great as their loudness in apposing any name change. By doing these measures they are trying to shore up as many certain No votes as they can.

The above steps are not of a man ready to betray us. Is continued talk of the interim accord concerning. Yes but a necessary evil as outlined above considering it was inherited.

His actions point against a betrayal. His body language also is in line with this thought and my personal opinion I think that because his roots are from Egejska Macedonia the events and horrors there are more real to him than most Macedonians from RoM even though like them he didn’t personally see it but his mediate family did and those stories would have echoed in his home as he was growing up. It is from this position I said your mob.

None the less I think they have tried everything they could think off and was in their power to do to prepare the country if they were removed from office one way or other to carry a No vote.

Everything I have hard or seen of them in particular Gruevski only because I have see him more often tells me I cannot believe he would give up the name and can only think he genuinely wants to improve the country. Is he siphoning a bit off. Its hard to say from the clips I have seen of him. I can only say he is a politician and as the Macedonian saying says motikata sekogas trga na kaj tebe but if any I doubt it would be anything like his predecessors.

So are you both of the same mob politically. From what I have read on your posts you both want a free and prosperous Macedonian with no name change but your approach is to analyse everything and then work out this is right and that is not and lets get on with it. In the murky world of Macedonian and Balkan an European politics sometimes right is wrong and wrong is right at least until this afternoon and then we will say something else lets say you are kith but not kin.

[johnMKD]

Then we tried to be the member again at 1990s, after they became EU but this time Greek vetoes started. They mainly don't want us because of our population. According to the laws of EU, you can have your representatives in the parliament depending on your country`s population. If they accepts Turkey, then Turkish parliamentarians will be the 2nd majority after Germans, outpacing French. Also they don't want to have a mainly muslim populated country in the EU.

Onur, is there a source stating that Greece was vetoing Turkish entrance in the EU lately? I'm not saying that what you state is false, but as far as I recall for the last 2 decades or more, Greek presidents and Prime ministers have always said in public "We fully support Turkey's entrance in the EU". Do you have more info on this?

And yes, I agree that their problem is the population of Turkey, both for being too much for them and for being mostly Muslim.

[johnMKD]

Solution to the name dispute (?)

Kathimerini newspaper just published this article: "Solution to the name dispute"

http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_98_17/06/2010_404788

[Rough translation in English:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=el&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.kathimerini.gr%2F4dcgi%2F_w_articles_columns_98_17%2F06%2F2010_404788]

The Greek newspaper says that a name such as "Republic of Vardar Macedonia" would be acceptable to Greeks because they could use just the term "Vardar" and avoid using the term "Macedonia" at all. The stupidity of modern Greek media is infinite.

[Risto the Great]

OM, I had no idea idea you meant Egejci when using the term "your mob". I will take a hard nosed Skopjan who stands by his identity and name in my mob any day.

I find myself banging my head against the wall all too often nowadays. I am constantly measuring my beliefs against real world demands and compromises. I am often asking "is it really that extreme to want to insist on Macedonia retaining its name? And is it really that extreme a position to want to insist that people are being more than rude when they want me to negotiate my identity".

Do you get it? Gruevski says "I ain't changing the name, if we do, it will be because of a referendum, the people will decide". Is that a leader of the people? You think he is a mastermind because he has deflected some opportunities to assert our Macedonian identity. It is disgraceful. Did you see him in that film "a name is a name"? He was insipid and his time is almost up. Am I a hardliner crazy bastard? I avoid conflict as a general rule but when some non-negotiable items are beaten around my head, I will assert myself without restraint. I think Macedonia needs more people willing to do that in its leadership.

Macedonians asserting their identity and not negotiating does not preclude them from doing anything else you have mentioned. In fact, by entering into agreements and initiatives with the "hint of negotiation/compromise", it is misleading to business partners and highly unethical.