Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Bratot]

Being part of any Macedonian place of origin doesn't have anything to do with this subject and the good vs. bad characteristics of the man.

Let's not get ourself into a spiral of unproductive accussation made on the basis of someone's origin, as well as those based on the age or the current place of living.

I'm very tired dealing the same crap attitude comming from all sides, I suggest or we all agree on the common aim and try to achieve it with a common effort.. or simply go and fuck yourself with your limited mental capacity.

Probably we can't be united as one people carrying the same burden, maybe it's better we focus ourselfs and our private time on something more productive.

[Bratot]

I find myself banging my head against the wall all too often nowadays. I am constantly measuring my beliefs against real world demands and compromises. I am often asking "is it really that extreme to want to insist on Macedonia retaining its name? And is it really that extreme a position to want to insist that people are being more than rude when they want me to negotiate my identity".

Do you get it? Gruevski says "I ain't changing the name, if we do, it will be because of a referendum, the people will decide". Is that a leader of the people? You think he is a mastermind because he has deflected some opportunities to assert our Macedonian identity. It is disgraceful. Did you see him in that film "a name is a name"? He was insipid and his time is almost up. Am I a hardliner crazy bastard? I avoid conflict as a general rule but when some non-negotiable items are beaten around my head, I will assert myself without restraint. I think Macedonia needs more people willing to do that in its leadership.

Macedonians asserting their identity and not negotiating does not preclude them from doing anything else you have mentioned. In fact, by entering into agreements and initiatives with the "hint of negotiation/compromise", it is misleading to business partners and highly unethical.

I agree on everything. But we should start considering about mass suicide if we want to avoid the compromitation of our political "elite" or to exterminate them instead once for all.

Untill there exist those vote-sheeps reacting anaemical to anything served to them and they are ready to consume it no matter of how contaminated it is than I see no point in waiting to see the result.

I already know, it's a biggest disgrace without responcibility for it, like claiming that some people were "victims of the communism" and npt of a certain individual, a real person with name and surname but hiding in between teminology and we are expecting something possitive to see from those persons who hide their responcibility for their own decissions in the name of "communism" before and a "referendum" today.

Stop with virtual teasers such as NATO or EU like to offer a candy as reward for letting a donkey cumshot in your ass.

[BigMak]

Her is the logical solution to the so-called name dispute.....

End talks, we have nothing to discuss

[julie]

Being part of any Macedonian place of origin doesn't have anything to do with this subject and the good vs. bad characteristics of the man.

Let's not get ourself into a spiral of unproductive accussation made on the basis of someone's origin, as well as those based on the age or the current place of living.

I'm very tired dealing the same crap attitude comming from all sides, I suggest or we all agree on the common aim and try to achieve it with a common effort.. or simply go and fuck yourself with your limited mental capacity.

Probably we can't be united as one people carrying the same burden, maybe it's better we focus ourselfs and our private time on something more productive.

Bratot, my sentiments exactly! Well said

[Bratot]

There is some name dispute of which I'm not informed?

[Onur]

Onur, is there a source stating that Greece was vetoing Turkish entrance in the EU lately? I'm not saying that what you state is false, but as far as I recall for the last 2 decades or more, Greek presidents and Prime ministers have always said in public "We fully support Turkey's entrance in the EU". Do you have more info on this?

Greek PMs says that they support Turkey`s EU membership if we accept 12 nautical miles in Aegean sea, recognize Greek only Cyprus and allow them to search for oil at northern Cyprus shores, accept "Hellenic genocide" claims and 100s of other demands, god knows the rest.

But it looks like after Cyprus became the member of EU, Greece threw the ball of veto to the Cyprus recently;

French colleagues have promised never to use the insulting phrase 'privileged partnership' again as Ankara negotiates full EU membership, the minister of European affairs and Turkey's chief negotiator, Egemen Bagiş, told EurActiv in an exclusive interview.

• A number of chapters in Turkey's negotiations are blocked, mainly over the Cyprus issue, if my information is correct. Who blocked those chapters and why?

[Laughter] It's as complicated as who killed Jesus […] I think that the most important thing that we should focus is that that the most difficult part of the negotiations is behind us. And the most difficult part has been putting the Turkey train on the EU tracks. The most difficult part was starting the accession talks. Every country that has ever stated accession negotiations has at the end completed them. Turkey will not be an exception.

It took us 40 years just to get a date to start accession talks. We did not give up. We were committed, we were decided, and we were patient. And today, we are even more committed, more decided and more patient than ever.

• What was the compromise? What made you return to the meeting room?

It was the Ankara Protocol issue - Cyprus [a decision from 2004 that Turkey should open its ports to Cyprus]. Turkey made a promise to open its ports, in exchange for ending the isolation for the Turkish Cypriots. We are behind our promise. If EU countries decide to have direct trade with Northern Cyprus, we will be more than happy to open our ports, and keep our part of the promise. The Greek Cypriots purchase the products of Northern Cyprus through the Green-line protocol of the UN, but they do not want 26 other EU members to do what they are doing themselves. We think EU is based on equality. And if one member country can enjoy the products of a third country, the other 26 should also be able to enjoy them.

• So the key for unlocking Turkey's EU accession talks is the Cyprus reunification talks?

The Cyprus talks are very important, but the Cyprus problem was not a prerequisite for the membership of Cyprus itself. Therefore it should not be a prerequisite for the membership of another country.

• Who is blocking Turkey's negotiating chapters?

Well, there are five chapters blocked by France, there are three by Austria and Germany, there are eight because of the Ankara Protocol, but it's a Council decision, it's not Cyprus. Cyprus is trying to prevent the opening of two chapters, education and energy. But I think these problems can be overcome.

• Regarding the Turkey-EU talks, apart from the blocked chapter, your country has to deliver on the Union's requirements as any other candidate country. Do you think that your country can deliver as well as the countries from the 2004 and 2007 enlargements?

I think that Turkey is more capable than many other countries in those issues. We have already fulfilled most of the Maastricht criteria, although we didn't have to. When banks went bankrupt throughout Europe in 2008, not a single Turkish bank lost money. The only facilities of French automaker Renault that profited in 2008 were the ones in Romania and in Turkey. Turkey is a very young, dynamic nation. We have the fourth largest workforce in Europe. The medium age in Turkey is 28. Half of our nation of 70 million is below the age of 25. And we have come a long way in the last 10 years. Ten years ago we were the 27th largest economy in the world, today we are the 16th.

We have a case – we can become one of the top economies and top countries of the world, even without becoming a member of the EU. So EU membership is very important anchor, but it's not our only option.

08 October 2009

http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargeme...article-186179

We all know that these Greece and Cyprus vetoes are just a joke. These are western Europeans`s demands from Turkey. Greece and Cyprus is just a tool for those. For example, if Sarkozy or Merkel desires, both Greece and Cyprus lifts all the vetoes of Turkey or from Macedonia overnight.


But none of this matters anymore. Turkish people seriously started to think that even if Europe asks us to join EU and Euro zone right now, we would refuse because of their economical problems. Our future is bright. Turkey`s GDP will grow by at least %7-8 this year, according to the expectations of world bank and IMF. Why we would join an union where all of it`s members shrinks in deflation. This would hurt our booming economy.

Also few days ago, this has been said by the head of Turkish EU secretary general;

Turkey's secretary general for the European Union (EU) said on Tuesday that he thought the EU dream was over.

Secretary General Volkan Bozkir said the EU was no more a union providing financial support to its new members, but a union dealing with problems of its own members.

15 June 2010

http://www.aa.com.tr/index.php?optio...aber_id=223906

I think in 12 months, Turkey will officially withdraw from EU accession talks after 50 years of struggle. We already didn't even speak once with them about our membership for about a year.

[Frank]

Please an end to this all

The Europeans are becoming frustrated, un-patient and now are venting against the Macedonians in fact we as the victim are starting to become demonised coz we will not relent to the demands

The demands all the Europeans are placing is morally despicable, no one has a right to ask us to change our very name or even dare to. As long as we feed their desire this saga will continue to suffocate us.

I can’t see how this can end if we continue this insane diplomatic subtle game,...... what corner stone event can shake this monstrous insult to our dignity

It would be so easy offcourse if the Macedonians could say they withdraw their EU candidate talks and simultaneously end dancing with those filthy ugly lying disgusting to look at Pigs.

[Onur]

The Greek newspaper says that a name such as "Republic of Vardar Macedonia" would be acceptable to Greeks because they could use just the term "Vardar" and avoid using the term "Macedonia" at all. The stupidity of modern Greek media is infinite.

John, i got a question for you.

What Greek media and politicians says about Turkish people in Cyprus? They deny that Turks living in there and call them with something like "Muslim minority Greek Cypriots"? or they think that every Turkish people in there came from Turkey after 1974, so-called "invaders from turkey"? How they define them?

[Spartan]

My good friend is Cypriot.
His family calls them "Turkish", and have told me that they lived amongst each other prior to 74.
They are from the north part, but left for the south after the conflict.
Lost all their property.

[Onur]

My good friend is Cypriot.
His family calls them "Turkish", and have told me that they lived amongst each other prior to 74.
They are from the north part, but left for the south after the conflict.
Lost all their property.

Yeah same for the Turks. There was about 80.000+ Turkish people lived in southern side of Cyprus among Greeks. Greek Junta`s EOKA soldiers put about 20.000 of them in death camps and Turkish soldiers saved their lives in 1974. Ofc they lost all their property too, like your friend`s parents but there is one big difference;
While most of Greek property stays intact in northern side atm, Greeks immediately demolished all Turkish property with the bulldozers at the south side to erase Turkish influence.

Also lets not forget that at 2004, Turkish Cypriots accepted UN`s Kofi Annan resolution plan in referendum with %67 "YES" vote. This plan was a formation of federal constitution of Turks and Greeks. Turkish people already accepted to return all former Greek property to it`s owners at northern side but Greek Cypriots voted "NO" in their referendum with %74+ by saying that Cyprus is a Greek only island and it`s going to be EU member with current Greek Junta created formation.

So, Greeks trusted EU`s support again and didn't accept UN`s resolution plan but ofc it didn't work out since Turkey will never give up his rights in the island and wont recognize Junta regime product of Greek only Cyprus no matter what EU says. I wonder when Greek politicians gonna realize that EU cannot dictate anything to Turkey...

[makedonin]

Vardar is the river which has it's spring in R. of Macedonia and mounts in the Aegean See. So if we would to accept that Name, that naturally includes the whole flow of the Vardar River, with what I don't have a problem, but than the Greek government must give the rest back, so that the new Name fit the reality.

What it will be Greeks?

[Frank]

How is this for a resolution I propose this name change

"Macedonia Republic" to replace The Republic of Macedonia

Vardar is a river the flows through to the port of Solun how does that qualify as a geographical Indentifier the Greeks have been asking

But we understand what they want the Republic of Vardar Macedonia (sutle but important differnece)

we then become Vardar-Macedonians

our Lanaguge the same

Simple

[makedonche]

I read all these posts with absolute trepidation, I cannot believe we are even discussing this or that we have devoted a thread to something that doesn't exist. I would ask all MTO members to refrain from this type of absolute GARBAGE. For the record:-
"THERE IS NO NAME DISPUTE"
GREECE HAS A PROBLEM WITH OUR SELF DETERMINED NAME, THEREFORE GREECE HAS A PROBLEM, WE DO NOT! DON'T GIVE THIS TOPIC MORE CONSIDERATION OR DISCUSSION AS WE PERPETUATE IT INTO REALITY!
I ALSO REQUEST THAT THE MODS DELETE THIS THREAD AND NOT LET ANY MORE GARBAGE LIKE THIS POLLUTE THE MTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Risto the Great]

Well said Makedonche.
But the thread is fine, there is a solution to the name dispute. As you put it, the solution is quite simply that there is indeed no name dispute for Macedonians.

Perhaps we should now talk about how we can advise the world that no dispute exists.

[makedonche]

Quote:
"Turkey's secretary general for the European Union (EU) said on Tuesday that he thought the EU dream was over.

Secretary General Volkan Bozkir said the EU was no more a union providing financial support to its new members, but a union dealing with problems of its own members.

http://www.aa.com.tr/index.php?optio...aber_id=223906 "

Onur
I hope and pray that ROM politicians wake up to this and stop beating on the door of the EU to let them in, because once they open that door and let ROM in it won't take long for the Macedonian people to realise they have been suckered into joining a club which now spends more time dealing with it's own members problems than assisting new members. The carrot that EU have been dangling is money/funds/financial incentives to join the club - where will the money come from to assist Macedonia? I can see the ridiculous conclusion of ROM entering EU then borrowing money to bail out the racist Greeks who have caused all of the pain and suffering to them for the last 20 years! It defies logic - why would you join a club that has impeded your development, insulted your nations integrity and sovreignity and then hand over more of your sovreignity in order to become a member so you can be in the same club as those who depise and belittle you on the international arena?
Wake up ROM, before you lose what little sovreignity you have!!!!!!!!!!!!