Originally posted by Bratot
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Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by protivpropaganda View Post
Macedonians are being brainwashed to avoid saying MACEDONIA by the political establishment in Ramkovist Macedonia, the state institutions under their control, their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora and those who follow their lead out of ignorance!
Do you agree or disagree?
02-13-2010, 02:41 AM #98
UMDiaspora.org
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Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 375
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UMD has never defended the term 'FYROM.' UMD does not support the name "the
former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and definitely does not support acronyms.
This is ridiculous. The name of Macedonia is Republic of Macedonia.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...8&postcount=98
advocating for FYROM and ENDORSEMENT of the TREASONOUS "IA" itself! If you or
anyone else can not comprehend that, then you have an IQ of an OVCA (Sheep) and
are beyond redemption, IMHO! :-)
FYI: Macedonia's rightful name is MACEDONIA and the addition of the
constitutional reference "Republic" is a COMPROMISE OFFER that IS
deceptively presented as being the "real and only" name of the country.
Professor Kramer on Macedonia and Macedonians:
"....Професорката наведува дека не е политичар, туку лингвист, но сепак, не може да
ја сфати суштината на спорот околу името.
„Македонија е Македонија. Македонскиот јазик е македонски јазик. Македонскиот
народ е македонскиот народ. Не ми е јасно во што е прашањето. Зошто една
држава може да вели дека од ден-денес, оваа држава, овој народ, овој јазик треба
да најде друго име. Веќе има име и името е Македонија“, вели Крамер...."
So, let's get to it.
The claims of this thread is that we are getting brainwashed into avoiding the usage of our name by the political establishment in Ramkovist Macedonia, the state institutions under their control, their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora and those who follow their lead out of ignorance.
I do not agree with this claim at all.
First belittling one's own country by calling it other then its own name is by itself an Ad Homminem attack.
Second, the institutions of our government or those in power do not subscribe to anything other then our name as is.
And last but not least we do not have a puppet Macedonian Diaspora but individuals who work for the interests of others.
Although the opposition, the leftist scum, in Macedonia would willingly sell out anything and everything held sacred by Macedonians, this is not the case with the Macedonians in Macedonia.Last edited by indigen; 12-16-2010, 07:19 AM.
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Originally posted by Bratot View PostCeasing the IA doesn't stop the negotiations.
Another question, are you able to provide credibile source who can vouch that our withdrawing from the IA is nullifying the consequences that came of it i.e. to change the national insignia, the provisional reference and our minorities?If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Article 5
1. The Parties agree to continue negotiations under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations pursuant to Security Council resolution 845 (1993) with a view to reaching agreement on the difference described in that resolution and in Security Council resolution 817 (1993).
2. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party of the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party of the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties
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Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View PostArticle 5
1. The Parties agree to continue negotiations under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations pursuant to Security Council resolution 845 (1993) with a view to reaching agreement on the difference described in that resolution and in Security Council resolution 817 (1993).
2. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party of the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party of the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties
The 1st clause says: The Parties agree to continue negotiations whilst Macedonia refers to itself as CUNT.
The 2nd clause says: 2. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party of the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party of the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties .... as long as the party to the second part calls itself CUNT.
..... again, my apologies for using the "F" word.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Macedonia and Greece in row
MACEDONIA and Greece are embroiled in a dispute about the former's name.
Although Macedonia is willing to compromise with Greece in a dispute about its name it has said it would not accept any solution that affected Macedonian identity and language, President Gjorge Ivanov said on Tuesday.
Greece has a northern province called Macedonia and claims the use of the name by the country implies Skopje has a claim on the Greek territory.
"It is not acceptable to discuss a solution that touches upon Macedonian identity, Macedonian language and the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia," Ivanov warned.
"As long as I am president of the republic of Macedonia, I will not allow this to happen," he added in his annual address to parliament.
Macedonian media have reported that Athens insists not only that the republic change its name but also objects to its language being called Macedonian and its inhabitants being identified as Macedonians.
Macedonia, independent since 1991, was recognized by the United Nations in 1993 under the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).
UN-led negotiations on the name row have been fruitless and Greece has used it to block Macedonia's entry into both the European Union and NATO.
Ivanov said Macedonia was ready to overcome its differences with Greece.
"We stand ready to bridge the differences in a European manner. We are citizens of a European country and we require Greece, being a member of the European Union, to use a European approach towards us," Ivanov said.
More than 120 nations, including Russia and the United States, have recognized the landlocked Balkan country under its constitutional name Republic of Macedonia.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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More of Ivanov's skeletons. According to him its ok to negotiate the state name. And what's this garbage about the constitution being off limits? They have already changed it on request from both Greece and the Albanians.
I wonder what a "European approach" is? Does it have anything to do with pants round ankles and backsides?If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Just because Vangelovski said he missed my long rants I took it as a green light for this one foray.
I find it strange to just talk of rights as though they are…Mans inalienable rights…we hold these truths to be self evident…great sentiments…neigh laws…but the devil is in there application and manipulation.
I watched our government do a few things and formulated a theory on what they were doing…the Great Plan. In time as they did more things it further cemented my belief in my theory. As more time went by further positive evidence…I thought finally a government with truthful heart gutsy balls and scumbag scheming mind…Macedonia might just get somewhere. Then recent events shook my belief in the truthful heart. Take that out of the equation and all you have left is gutsy balls and scumbag scheming mind…a couple of steps ahead of the devil Crvenkovski.
We all know where we want to go and what we want to achieve. It seems naive to just talk of broastroke ideals and wave the banner of inalienable rights as if proving that such a thing exists somehow means just wave that inalienable rights banner and ofcourse people have to get out of your way…the devil is in the detail and manipulation of terms…those rights are not automatic even if they should be nor even if it writes it somewhere…proving their existence does not guarantee their correct application.
If a bunch of people in the usa take up arms demanding greater rights they would be labelled terrorists and gunned down because nobody was shooting at them or killing them before they took up arms. The government would be called the defender of freedom justice and the rule of law. Where’s the peaceful petitioning instead of resorting to violence they would say.
Same no shooting or killing of the Albanians and they are labelled freedom fighters and the invading nato force is labelled the defender of justice and human rights. Same laws different application. That’s why some on this forum keep saying broad strokes and waving banners of rights is not enough. The manipulation is in the redefining of terms and the challenge is what to do to outmaneuver your opponent…read just about everyone…and not give him excuses to label you as he sees fit…your opponent knows the court of public opinion counts.
Simply waving the banner of inalienable rights and saying you can claim the moral high ground because of this appears naive to some. Badgering those who criticise…and say this is not enough or just plain naive…by offering umpteen bits of evidence that such a beast as inalienable rights exist to prove the case only appears more naive.
No one doubts we have rights. No one is trying to prove this away from you. Some of the inaction…or inappropriate action…in people in RoM and elsewhere is exactly as you say due to greed stupidity or fear or frozen minds but some of it is just out of what to do next when the government doesn’t appear to be supporting you and worse sometimes supporting those against you. I doubt just repeating to them they have rights is going to be enough. A lack of leadership exists and hence peoples frustrations and even protivpropagandas reaching out to the MTO…read diaspora.
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OM,
Sorry, when I find the time for some light amusement that lacks any coherent thought I'll read your post. I did catch one thing out of the corner of my eye though:
If a bunch of people in the usa take up arms demanding greater rights they would be labelled terrorists and gunned down because nobody was shooting at them or killing them before they took up arms. The government would be called the defender of freedom justice and the rule of law. Where’s the peaceful petitioning instead of resorting to violence they would say.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by BratotCeasing the IA itself will not release us from the obligation given upper, until we anull the both resolutions, which can be done by the ICJ on our demand.
What do you see as the consequences should Macedonia pull out of the IA?In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostI wonder what a "European approach" is?Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Makedonetz View PostVery good writing powerful words!If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Bratot View PostOriginally posted by Bratot View Post"Clavus clavo eicitur" familiar?
There is also a saying in Macedonian: "so lisicata na lisechki nacin"Si pretpostavuvam deka "Golemiot Lisec" - Gligorov mora da ti bil (i se ushte da ti e) potik za tvojot ideoloshki pogled vo vrska so makedonskata megjunarodna vazalska politika! Dali gresham nekade?
Can you tell us with a straight face how on the one hand YOU can support the "IA" (as you do currently) and at the same time say you support the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" (and even engage in promoting it)? What ethical principles are being upheld in such an OXYMORON stand? Would it be too far fetched to say that your support for the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" is analogous to that of the wolf in sheep's clothing lurking among the flock of sheep?
There was another saying in Macedonian for the likes of you: "Thick as a brick"
But wasn't you saying that declaring the Interim Agrement null and void will cease the negotiations? ( post 158)
Thus all this time you adhered to the view that we must declare the IA null and void in order to cease the negotiation which is plain OXYMORON solution, while parading to be a big supported to end the name negotiations.
Your OXYMORON political position stands naked and exposed before the MTO readers and you are just clutching at straws but no doubt you will drown!
Ceasing the IA doesn't stop the negotiations.
YOU TELL US HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO SUPPORT THE KEEPING OF THE IA WHILST SUPPORTING THE "END THE NAME NEGOTIATIONS CAMPAIGN"? Are the people and organisations who call, and called, for an end to the name negotiations inept and stupid or are you just being shifty?
Another question, are you able to provide credible source who can vouch that our withdrawing from the IA is nullifying the consequences that came of it i.e. to change the national insignia, the provisional reference and our minorities?
The following is from a media release of the WMK/SMK:
"Правото на самоидентификување и самоопределување е неотуѓиво универзално право на македонскиот народ и затоа СМК апелира на итен и безусловен прекин на разговорите за разликата за државното име Македонија и продолжување на членството во Обединетите Нации и во сите меѓународни организации под единственото име Македонија...."
The above has been my position from day one and WHERE DO YOU SEE ANY REFERENCE LIMITING the end demand to the nullification of the IA only?Last edited by indigen; 12-15-2010, 04:37 AM.
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