Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

I personally think anyone can be of Macedonian Nationality.
But a question of Macedonian Ethnicity can only be answered by one group of people and we know who we are.
We cannot compare to Switzerland because there is no Swiss Ethnicity.

[Pelister]

In todays parlance I suppose anyone can, your right.

But, the fight for Statehood and the fight for a Macedonian Nationality has been an exclusive ethnic Macedonian affair for the better part of 150 years. (1 exception does not change that fact, or does it?).

In any case - I don't have anything personal against its author. Some members of UMD are wonderful people - its just their politics I don't agree with.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for the response Pelister. The apparent 'necessity' of the negotiations and the garbage about 'ancient rhetoric' cited by Mitreski has left an unfavourable impression with me where it concerns the UMD, I wouldn't have thought that a member of the UMD would be saying these things, particularly the latter. Anybody would think it is Lupcho Gorgievski talking his usual garbage, if these people are ashamed of their heritage they should look outside of Macedonia for it, not try and supress or manipulate that from within.

We have talked in private to Macedonian officials that we need to end these negotiations. We will continue to do so.

Who is "we" bre Northern Mitreski? Who are you talking on behalf of, I am not in unison with you, don't dare try and represent me and all the others like me with your defeatist garbage.

I have to say it, this is the first time I have seen such low garbage talk from a representative of the UMD, I am utterly disgusted, maybe I am the one at fault here for giving the benefit of doubt one too many times.

[Rogi]

You guys are seriously misrepresenting UMD and Pelister is misinterpreting Aleksandar's letter.

If anything, Aleksandar is one of the guys that is completely against the negotiations.

He doesn't know you and doesn't trust you (and I guess rightfully so, since you do publicise private emails) he gave you a political response. The same type of response he would giveto the Greeks who email UMD pretending to be Macedonians, only to use that response to undermine UMD's access to politicians in the US and cause legal problems with UMD's not-for-profit status (and there are daily attempts at this, you would be amazed).

The truth is, take the anti-UMD bias away and you'll see that Aleksandar wrote that we have been talking to the Government each and every time telling them to end the negotiations (on the same basis that Paul/Pelister argues here, our Sovereignty). That's the one and only position we have - if we could force the Government to do that, we would, unfortunately our power is limited and the Government is not listening to us, or to the World Macedonian Congress, or to many, many other Macedonians around the world and in Macedonia who are saying the same thing - end the negotiations immediately.

In any case, UMD's policies and positions documents are coming out soon (currently being worked on), and I have to thank Paul/Pelister for that because his anti-UMD posts have helped me push the need for defined and public UMD policies and positions (and a definition of the Macedonian cause), so they'll be out soon. Personally, I figure that's what Paul/Pelister's aim is all along - not to 'destroy' UMD, but to keep it on its toes and on the right track (same reason why I'm still in UMD)

[Risto the Great]

In any case, UMD's policies and positions documents are coming out soon (currently being worked on), and I have to thank Paul/Pelister for that because his anti-UMD posts have helped me push the need for defined and public UMD policies and positions (and a definition of the Macedonian cause), so they'll be out soon. Personally, I figure that's what Paul/Pelister's aim is all along - not to 'destroy' UMD, but to keep it on its toes and on the right track (same reason why I'm still in UMD)

Rogi, personally I would rather have you in the UMD than not for the above reasons. The fact that we are still guessing somewhat about the intent of the UMD still makes me believe they need to work MUCH harder than they are right now in order to truly represent the Macedonian Diaspora. How on Earth could the UMD have existed for so long WITHOUT policies and positions? The UMD should publicly kiss Paul's arse for his vigilance.

The fact that you suggest Mitreski is one of the leaders who prefers NOT to negotiate suggests other leaders WANT to negotiate. We are back where we started. Stated policies and positions mean nothing in the back rooms when the commitment from UMD's leadership is divided. How utterly stupid do they look when their only paid leader has publicly stated negotiations are inevitable and yet the UMD states it is against negotiations. Surely you understand the big cloud hanging over the UMD.

Do you think the UMD would be opposed to anything in the Macedonian Cause as it presently sits in this forum? Where in particular?

We have confirmed the UMD thinks too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric are bad things. We now know one of its positions. I think Macedonia is so lacking in nationalism that it is embarrassing. This is a "position" that the UMD members surely need to know about.

You have suggested Mitreski gave a rather generic reply because many people use this correspondence as a means of trying to make Macedonians look bad etc. Well it can be safely assumed it was written with a potential public airing. I see no need to blame Paul for publicly sharing this generic sounding response.

I think the UMD needs to make it very clear what its position is on every issue that is clearly of importance to Diaspora members. I see it as an opportunity to entice the maximum number of potential members to the UMD. It is as simple as defining what are the most important matters to Macedonians. It certainly is not about pushing what the UMD thinks is best for the Macedonians. The cause is a good idea, as discussed previously. Five years after its formation the UMD is thinking about its policies and positions .... better late than never.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Rogi, am I misinterpreting Mitreski's words when he says that the Macedonian government has shown too much ancient rhetoric? Can you explain what he means by that, and what exactly is the (his) problem with it?

Also, Mitreski basically says that we can't pull out because only god knows what will happen next, only to go on and say that they are trying to convince the government to end the negotiations during 'private talks'. Forgive my misinterpretation, but does this not sound contradictory? Are the UMD trying to be closet patriots? Sho se kria? Ending these negotiations should be discussed in public, the Macedonian diaspora doesn't want a group that represents their true beliefs in 'private talks'.

This has been the problem all along, everybody's trying to be a diplomat, nobody speaks out too loudly in case of perception, where are the balls gentlemen? Where is our pride and most importantly, INTEGRITY? The UMD's official line should have been NO negotiations from day 1, and they should have been pushing that with the US and their contacts, rather than looking for ways to enter Nato and the EU.

[Pelister]

Rogi, am I misinterpreting Mitreski's words when he says that the Macedonian government has shown too much ancient rhetoric? Can you explain what he means by that, and what exactly is the (his) problem with it?

Also, Mitreski basically says that we can't pull out because only god knows what will happen next, only to go on and say that they are trying to convince the government to end the negotiations during 'private talks'. Forgive my misinterpretation, but does this not sound contradictory? Are the UMD trying to be closet patriots? Sho se kria? Ending these negotiations should be discussed in public, the Macedonian diaspora doesn't want a group that represents their true beliefs in 'private talks'.

This has been the problem all along, everybody's trying to be a diplomat, nobody speaks out too loudly in case of perception, where are the balls gentlemen? Where is our pride and most importantly, INTEGRITY? The UMD's official line should have been NO negotiations from day 1, and they should have been pushing that with the US and their contacts, rather than looking for ways to enter Nato and the EU.

The contradictions we see in UMD's politics (in its press releases and letters) is the result of the duality that exists between UMD political agenda for Macedonia, and the wishes of the Macedonian faithful. As positions become increasingly untenable, we tend to see "slippage" or contradictory statements emerge. This could only happen if the politics of UMD is in fact anti-Macedonian.

What irks me is that this letter makes it CLEAR that UMD support Nimetz's position that the negotations are essential if Macedonia wants to gain membership.

What this "suggests" to me is that Nimtez has given the Macedonian leadership an ultimatum - "negotiate or you will never get in".

[Dimko-piperkata]

Remarks on double-name formula spark reaction in Greece

Athens / 22/07/09 / 10:34
The remarks by Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski hinting at a double-name formula for settlement of name row sparked harsh reactions in Athens.

Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said "this statement shows that Mr. Gruevski doesn't get the international community's message, which is clear and unanimous.

"The Euro-Atlantic course of his country and its people requires a mutually acceptable solution on this issue, a compound name with a geographical qualifier in relation to everyone," Bakoyannis' Cabinet said on Wednesday.

http://makfax.com.mk/en-us/Details.aspx?ItemID=7180

Skopje - Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski on Wednesday has proposed a double-name system to end a years- long dispute with Greece over the use of the name Macedonia. The two countries have been at loggerheads over the name since the 1990s break-up of former Yugoslavia. The country, which emerged from the break-up, shares its name with a province in neighbouring Greece.

Greece, Gruevski said, "shows no desire to discuss" the matter.

"In that situation a double formula - one name for communication with Greece and another, constitutional name, for all other countries" is the only way, Gruevski said.

The United Nations formally refers to the country as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), while Skopje prefers the name Republic of Macedonia.

Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyanni did not want to comment on Gruevski's proposal, according to media reports in Macedonia.

"Gruevski's attitude shows that he did not understand the message of the international community, and that message is clear - we need a mutually acceptable solution in order for his country to take up a Euro-Atlantic course," Bakoyanni was quoted as saying.

As a result of the dispute, Greece blocked Macedonia's bid to enter NATO earlier this year. Bids by Albania and Croatia were also blocked.

UN special envoy Matthew Nimitz has proposed the name "Republic of Northern Macedonia" and is waiting for the governments in Athens and Skopje to consider it.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/278480,macedonian-proposes-use-of-two-names-to-settle-row-with-greece.html

[Risto the Great]

Given that most nations call us Republic of Macedonia, it is clear that Greece doesn't get the international community's message. Wake up Dora and enjoy your swan song.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The rest of the world listens to logic and reason, Greece has chosen not to be logical and Dora's statement is little but a joke. Their aim is to erase the Macedonian identity, in this respect they have already lost, in fact, they were never going to win. It is all bad news for Greece's politicians and their sadistic ambitions.

[Pelister]

It gives us important clues in terms of what is going on behind close doors.

What this brings to light is that the Greeks have been trying to "strong arm" Gruevski. To intimidate him with deceptive statement like "the IR is against you".

That is rubbish. There are two or three States against us with alot more political power in Europe than we have. That is it.

[Pelister]

The rest of the world listens to logic and reason, Greece has chosen not to be logical and Dora's statement is little but a joke. Their aim is to erase the Macedonian identity, in this respect they have already lost, in fact, they were never going to win. It is all bad news for Greece's politicians and their sadistic ambitions.

Precisely..

[Risto the Great]

Quite frankly, Gruevski's recent comment about the double-name formula suggests he accepts Greece will always remain belligerent and that it would be the only acceptable way forward to him.

I was also relatively pleased with the way he worded his acceptance of the people's decision noting that politicians have a very short period of relevance ... and that the decision to change the name of Macedonia will have very long implications. Whilst he could have simply said that there is no need for any negotiation at all (my preferred response) .... he at least accepts that politicians are just pawns in this process and has kept his ego in check.

But I am against any referendum on this matter whatsoever.

[King Makedon]

Yes, we had in our history as many heroes as we had and still have traitors.

A lot of our heroes died for their cause, while the traitors still living.

so heroes got a name in macedonian history books while the traitor punishes its own people.

[indigen]

Prof. Igor Janev: UN illegally created a problem when admitting Macedonia

The UN illegally created a problem when admitting Macedonia

Friday, 07 August 2009

Professor Igor Janev is on a personal mission vs Greece. He has attempted to talk the Macedonian Government into pursuing legal avenues at the UN for more than 10 years. Most recently, Professor Janev was one of the initiators who helped Serbia win their case at the UN in questioning the legality of Kosovo's declaration for independence. Professor Janev advocates Macedonia follow Serbia and question Greece at the UN's General Assembly. While Macedonia has so far rejected/ignored professor Janev's recommendations, foreign countries ask for and follow his advice.

In 1948, Portugal was not allowed to be admitted at the UN without prior recognition by the then USSR. The ICJ stepped in and formed a law prohibiting the UN in setting new conditions on countries being admitted to the UN. Yet similarly to Portugal, under bizarre and illegal circumstances, Macedonia was asked to use temporary name in order to become a member?

Below is an excerpt of an interview Professor Janev gave Macedonian media.

How do you grade the present Macedonian position, the process in Hague, Nimetz...
- Someone ought to explain to Mr. Nimetz that Macedonia has no intentions to solve someone else's problem, a problem illegally created by the UN, thus creating an ultra vires act. Macedonia can't be a hostage of someone else's mistakes. The UN will fix their error by transferring the case to the ICJ.

Why MANU gives no support in the 'name negotiations'
- MANU is not well informed about the problem and has lack of experience when it comes to international laws tied to the name negotiations. If different, MANU would long ago recommended stoppage of all negotiations with Greece! Because of its lack of experienced intellectuals, MANU in its agenda gave no statement on the existence of lawful way to terminate negotiations and move discussions at the UN's General Assembly. This is a huge omission by a high institution such as the Academy.

How many countries does Macedonia need at the UN to support transfer of dispute at ICJ?
- The number of non-aligned countries is 118. Tabling this question at the UN will require the support of minimum 41 countries. In Kosovo's case, it was the Non-Aligned nations who gave an overwhelming support to Serbia, which received 77 votes.

What this means for Macedonia? With minimal to no lobbying effort, Macedonia will receive at least 60 votes at the UN.

UN's court is aware the UN has broken articles 1, 4, 7 of the UN's Charter when admitting Macedonia to the UN. This case is identical to the 1948 Portugal case which we should call upon.

There is no doubt the General Assembly will vote in favor of Macedonia after it hears the opinion of the court, thus cementing the "Republic of Macedonia" at the UN.

Why talks on Language, Identity?

[...]

Any Legal ways left to fight for?

[...]

What do you think of Branko Crvenkovski and his work as president, prime minister?
".... He is an individual with zero qualifications in the matter of international relations, politics, state affairs. It is only in this sense that I understand his unprofessional and amateurish statements in regards with the name dispute.

One thing stands. This man, with known lack of qualifications and basic knowledge led Macedonia for many years in the international field and contributed for zero problems to be effectively solved or brought to a conclusion.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/7770/45/

For fair use only.