Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Daskalot]

So you're not providing me with the numbers. Now, I went along with this story about 'being a man of your word' for arguments sake but this has nothing to do with that. You are distorting the truth again. You suggest a lot, but prove nothing. And when I ask you how many you contacted, and of those how many admitted to have signed the letter for reasons of funding you are dodging the bullet again. Just clarify it so that we all know what you're talking about. (knowing full well that we still won't be able to actually verify it). That would be only fair.

And no, I did not read the Tompkins analysis.

Giorikas, I have no knowledge to how many and whom Risto has contacted of the signatories, BUT if he only contacted 1 of them and this person admitts to what Risto does state above doesnt that automatically jeopardize the whole validity of the letter?

You see there is no need to ask them all, all we need is one of the signatories, and everything falls apart.

From being a letter of protest to becoming a veichle of propaganda, only 1 is needed.

By the way, I really advice you to read Tompkins response so we can further continue this debate, knowing both sides of the letter so to say.

To help you on your way, here is the response from Tompkins:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1450

This is the direct link to his letter:

http://astro.temple.edu/~pericles/Letter.htm

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, I have no knowledge to how many and whom Risto has contacted of the signatories, BUT if he only contacted 1 of them and this person admitts to what Risto does state above doesnt that automatically jeopardize the whole validity of the letter?

You see there is no need to ask them all, all we need is one of the signatories, and everything falls apart.

From being a letter of protest to becoming a veichle of propaganda, only 1 is needed.

By the way, I really advice you to read Tompkins response so we can further continue this debate, knowing both sides of the letter so to say.

To help you on your way, here is the response from Tompkins:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1450

This is the direct link to his letter:
http://astro.temple.edu/~pericles/Letter.htm

Hmm. It makes a difference if someone keeps in the back of his head that he's (co) funded by Greece when asked to sign a letter, or whether he received active pressure. ( to protect his livelyhood as someone suggested here)

It sure makes a difference if this is only 1 Professor or all of them. I can't help it if someone fears being cut from funds so regardless what he would have done, he signs the letter.

It makes a difference finding out how many different profs from how many different universities we are actually talking about. I see a large number of different universities on that list and I have a hard time believeing that each single university programme programme on that list is sponsored by Greece to such an serious extent that they woiuld fear omitting their name from a list.

It makes also a difference whether these professors are paid personally off (as initially suggested by Risto the Great), or that they are part of a university programme that receives to a certain degree financial support from Greece. The second option is already much lighter then the first.

It certainly makes a difference if these 'facts' you brought to light are verifyable or not. Not being verifyable make your claims more gossip then something else.

Not to mention that it is very strange indeed that someone would confess that on paper to someone possibly on the other side of the world. You NEVER put these things in writing.

Now how much money do you suggest is pumped in all these programmes ? It should be huge sums eh ..

Will check your link sometime.

[Risto the Great]

Giorikas, I picked the most esteemed universities and contacted the professors. You saw the kind of letter I wrote I believe. It certainly generated responses with some useful replies. I can honestly tell you that they gave us some huge inspiration in the sense that the arguments were baseless and a trifle embarrassing for the professors. I can guarantee these professors will never meddle in this kind of nationalistic rubbish again. What does ancient history have to do with modern nations?

And by the way, remember .... THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. I thought I would remind you again. My people come from what is now called the province of West Macedonia in Greece. I am not confused by this. If you have a limited education, perhaps you could get that confused with the Republic of Macedonia. So I am yet to understand why there is even a debate about this nonsensical issue.

I am getting a little sick and tired of you commenting about things without reading appropriate links. Start with the Tompkins analysis. Read it and tell us what you disagree with. Stop being such an ignorant fool who ignores the opposing view. Remember, you don't come from Greece, you need as much help as possible to truly understand. And as yet another Diaspora Greek person, we all know you are typically the most deluded kind. So read the link, learn something and feel free to attack some little comment in the way you know best .... as annoying as a household pest (guess which one).

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, I picked the most esteemed universities and contacted the professors. You saw the kind of letter I wrote I believe. It certainly generated responses with some useful replies. I can honestly tell you that they gave us some huge inspiration in the sense that the arguments were baseless and a trifle embarrassing for the professors. I can guarantee these professors will never meddle in this kind of nationalistic rubbish again. What does ancient history have to do with modern nations?

And by the way, remember .... THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. I thought I would remind you again. My people come from what is now called the province of West Macedonia in Greece. I am not confused by this. If you have a limited education, perhaps you could get that confused with the Republic of Macedonia. So I am yet to understand why there is even a debate about this nonsensical issue.

I am getting a little sick and tired of you commenting about things without reading appropriate links. Start with the Tompkins analysis. Read it and tell us what you disagree with. Stop being such an ignorant fool who ignores the opposing view. Remember, you don't come from Greece, you need as much help as possible to truly understand. And as yet another Diaspora Greek person, we all know you are typically the most deluded kind. So read the link, learn something and feel free to attack some little comment in the way you know best .... as annoying as a household pest (guess which one).

Yes, I read again that THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. Now what's your point here? What's the relevance to the 340 or so PHD's that signed a letter? We are right now discussing about that. Not about where your people are from, and not about provinces in Greece.

Again, you did not provide any sort of concrete information, given the restriction that I will accept for now that you don't want to expose the, ehh, cockroaches once again as you called them before. (that you will use your pesticide on). There's a difference between exterminating cockroaches and protecting their anonymity ... but ok, we'll let that slip through knowing who said it.
Now once again, how many admitted that they were paid off by Greece and that did not support the letter? How many times do I need to ask you that question? How many were not paid off ?

The Tomkins 'analysis' as you say is not the point here. I read it and I don't see the point to comment on that now. Normal that some will not support that letter. I expected nothing less. Now you position 1 Thomson analysis against 340 signatures and and I am taking 'the opposing view' ? Funny.

Actually, I don't know if you noticed but the contents of that letter is not what we're discussing here. What I would like to demonstrate is that your initial statements are hot air, can not be proven and without substance. You are then asking me to take your word for something. Tricky. You were saying that 'The professors' are quite embarrased by it, suggesting that that applies to all or at least to a great number, when in fact you do not want to give us the number even. Is it 1 PHD ? 5? 10 ? 100 ? 340 ? Are you really going to think that anybody would believe that all these universities and/or all these professors are 'paid off' by Greece?
There's an awful lot of them. Why don't you take another break, and reality check too while you're at it..

[Daskalot]

Giorikas, I would like to point something out to you, Risto is referring to you as a cockroach, I do not mean to be disrespectful in any way, but that is how interpret his wordings.

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, I would like to point something out to you, Risto is referring to you as a cockroach, I do not mean to be disrespectful in any way, but that is how interpret his wordings.

I once called him an old timer and he got really upset by that so I'll be generous one last time.

[Risto the Great]

No no ... "old timer" is far more generous than "cockroach".

But anyway, if you can join the dots Giorikas .... by being funded by Greek organisations to present their research, these professors have a perceived obligation to sign letters as created by Miller. So they were NOT paid to sign the letter, thy have been paid for many years for many different matters. By not signing the letter, they would ensure reduced income streams in the future.

5 replies is the number, I wrote about 8 letters. I certainly did not write to any Greeks (the majority of the signatories) and I certainly did not write to the university of some backwater country. Just the BIG ones.

Now you position 1 Thomson analysis against 340 signatures and and I am taking 'the opposing view' ? Funny.

An ANALYSIS against some signatures. As I said, some of the signatories are already backing away from the sentiment of that letter. The people I queried said they disagree with Tompkins but when I asked them why, they could not tell me why. I love it. Professors from the highest learning institutions who simply could not admit what was wrong with Tompkins' assessment. Naturally, I am sure you could pick it all to shreds with your higher learning and all.

Now i have found out a second follow up letter exists, I must read it to determine what has changed. Unlike you, I read both sides of the argument.

[Giorikas]

Bravo. We've come a long way.

This is what you wrote originally:

Quote: 'Ummm, I asked the Professors. They were embarrassed if you really want to know. Quite apologetic too. And guess what, they HAVE been paid by the Greek State. And guess why they will not take their names off the list .... because they will CONTINUE to be paid by the Greek State.'

From that quote (suggesting all are embarresed and paid off) we went to a more modest 8 letters sent, 5 replies, un unknown number of those 5 have pro-actively signed a letter because they had a perceived obligation to do so. No pressure, no pay offs. That perceived obligation in itself does not mean that they disagree with the contents per se. Maybe they would find the letter and the fact is was sent to Obama a bit, ehmm, too political. Or maybe they found calling on the US to stop using the name ROM too much. Historians do not do these things normally. Maybe that is the reason why Miller revised the letter later, to accomodate those professors who are now satisfied ? Who knows ?

Now would they (even reluctantly) sign a letter denying the holocaust for example ? For sure not. In fact I seriously doubt that they any self respecting professor would put his reputation on the line by signing something he complete would oppose. Again, I suspect that they found Miller's circus a bit over the top.
You just wrote to the big ones, eh ? Now you're suggesting that apart from the the Ivy Leage universities plus Oxford and Cambridge all are simple backwater universities. Thanks for that, I guess all of us here that did not graduate at Ivy leage or cambridge / Oxford are a bunch of uneducated fools. Of course there are other universities of importance.

Now to be honest, I really don't care too much for that letter even if I find it amusing. The point I was making when discussing with Sovius was that my views are not isolated at all.
How could it be ? Apart from those 342 who signed the letter, there's just about all neigbouring countries with whom there are differences of opinion.
There's of course a problem with Greece about Alexander the Great that you claim as yours (including a pure bloodline), there's problems with with Bulgaria about Tsar Samuel, and many other topics including the leaders of the Ilinden uprising, with Serbia about the so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church'. With all Orthodox and other churches for that matter for not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox.

Then there are plenty of Macedonian politicians (and no doubt more to follow) who are labelled as: Racist/sell out/traitor. There is the recently added 'Brat' Ljube, there was Branco Crvenkovski, and many others. Soon Ivanov will be labelled and Gruevski, since they will be forced to do what they need to do to make ROM survive: (a burden that professional Macedonians like yourself do not have to carry) find a solution and take responsibility. Some are saying things that would get me banned immediately here. Such as: That Macedonians are Bulgarians, nothing else then Slav, others say that you are in no way related to anncient Macedonians, and so on, and so on.

Let's not get in to all that now, those things are really debated millions of times. You can do that with someone else. But please do not make make the mistake to assume that my views are the exception to the rule. (regardless who is right in all above examples). Concluding this revealing dialogue:

Whichever name will be negotiated (and we know that ROM or Macedonia will not be the final name), above topics will always remain controversial. You should know that. That is your future: a negotiated and compromised name and much controversy. That is the best case scenario of course. Wishing you a nice day, Risto the Great

[Risto the Great]

Wow, for someone so concerned about the letter and sticking to the point, I am somewhat perplexed with your launch into the Serbian church etc. Was that in the Miller letter?

Now would they (even reluctantly) sign a letter denying the holocaust for example ? For sure not. In fact I seriously doubt that they any self respecting professor would put his reputation on the line by signing something he complete would oppose.

What a stupid argument you have put forward here. The holocaust has the support of public opinion. To deny it would be academic suicide. We are talking about the complete opposite situation. You don't get it do you.

I explained the context in which I used the term "paid off" .... it does not suit you so you carry on with your little dream of cheques in the mail. Why are you so petty about this? Do you think my assessment is unreasonable? I can confirm a professor was paid by the Greek State in the 1990's to spread propaganda about Macedonia. He came to Adelaide and was thoroughly questioned by local Macedonians. His replies were not good enough for the local Greeks so they walked out in disgust. I think they wanted to hear that Alexander only spoke pure modern Greek and was a good Orthodox christian.

The professors who signed that letter were doing something that felt quite reasonable and unoffensive to them. Pulic opinion is in their favour, why shouldn't they do it? Does it mean they are correct?

One of the professors felt that it was inappropriate for modern Macedonians to adopt the many historical symbols of the ancient Hellenes and people like Alexander. I replied using his own words to mention that Alexander had a dubious ethnicity and I then inquired which ancient symbols were being used by modern Macedonians. Noting that only one symbol was being used and that it was prevalent all over the Republic of Macedonia. Guess what .... things got quiet pretty fast.

You know I was quite delighted to recently learn (here) that the Slavs of Morea were divided into two major groups. Thise that were part of the Roman Empire and those that rejected it. Do you think even one person in Greece knows this? Even I only knew about the Slavic tribes that opposed the Romans. How could we have so many slavic placenames in Southern Greece without such dominance? Why is such information so hard to come by? Who would want to know that revised and compromised identity of modern Greeks? Where would funding for research come from? Why would the world favour this new knowledge? Instead I am sure some people even believe the name "Morea" comes from some obscure ancient Greek word. Funny isn't it?

There are reasons why some politicians are labelled as sellouts. They have changed their opinions and complete belief systems. Do they deserve respect from people that followed their previous beliefs? Imagine if Greece got honest with itself about its last 2000 years of history. People like you would perhaps label your own leaders as sellouts and traitors. All part of a good game isn't it.

Thank you for trying to plant your demented seeds of "reason" into this argument. But I understand your objectives all too clearly. Grow up and move forward from your hatred, it is not good for a person. Perhaps it suits pests more though.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There's of course a problem with Greece about Alexander the Great that you claim as yours (including a pure bloodline).....

And what exactly was the connection between Alexander the Great and the Albanians of Athens? Oh that's right, nothing. Look here you imbecile, the politicians of mongrel (oops, 'modern') Greece make reference to their so-called 'Hellenic' past almost daily, yet I am still waiting to see Dora Vlakoyanni sacrifice one of her fellow goats at Delphi, let us know how she goes with that.

.....there's problems with with Bulgaria about Tsar Samuel, and many other topics including the leaders of the Ilinden uprising.....

Tsar Samuel, Ilinden, etc, all in Macedonia, today's Macedonians are the cultural, geographic and linguistic descendants of these people. Were we referred to as Bulgarians at some point, were other Slavic-speakers in the Balkans? Sure, if the Italians were as manipulative and confused as today's Greeks and Bulgars, you would be claiming the colonisation of Italy through the 'Grakoi' tribe, lol. Let me know when normality sets in.

....with Serbia about the so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church'. With all Orthodox and other churches for that matter for not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox.

Hhmm, sounds like a familiar story, and the way you word it, the other Orthodox Churches are "not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox", lol, do they accept it as Catholic? Protestant? Tell me Giorikas, when the Germans created and administered your new "Hellenic Church" during the 19th century, was it recognized as an Orthodox Church or a Church at all by the Patriarchate of Constantinople?

Let's not stop there, let's see where the Bulgarised Exarchate was at, after its creation, shall we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Exarchate

The Bulgarian Exarchate (Bulgarian: Българска екзархия Bylgarska ekzarkhia) was the official name of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church before its autocephaly was recognized by the Ecumenical See in 1945 and the Bulgarian Patriarchate was restored in 1953...........

The Exarchate (a de-facto autocephaly) was unilaterally (without the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch).............

........the secession from the Patriarchate was officially condemned by the Council in Constantinople in September 1872 as schismatic.

WOW!!! From its Ottoman-establishment in the 1870's, the autocephaly of the BOC was recognized by the Ecumenical See only in 1945, a good 70-80 years after the fact.

Care to explain why Gorki? Care to explain why you even mentioned the church? What's the matter Gorki, Greeks on their own aren't worthy of comparison to Macedonians? Tell me something I don't know, champ.....

[Risto the Great]

EU asks Macedonia to drop emotions in Greek row

http://www.canada.com/news/asks+Macedonia+drop+emotions+Greek/1789406/story.html

SKOPJE - EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana urged Macedonia Tuesday to cast aside emotions over an 18-year name row with Greece that has frozen the ex-Yugoslav republic's integration into the European bloc.

The name dispute was an "important issue that has to be solved, and I asked everybody to put their emotions aside," Solana told reporters here after meeting with Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski.

Solana called on the Macedonian and Greek governments to seize the opportunity of ongoing negotiations headed by UN special envoy Matthew Nimetz to resolve the issue.

"I think that is a window of opportunity and I am asking the prime minister not (to) let this window of opportunity to go," he said at a joint media conference with Gruevski.

Skopje and Athens have been at loggerheads over the right to the name Macedonia since the ex-Yugoslav republic proclaimed independence in 1991. A northern Greek province has the same name.

Last year Greece used its veto to block an invitation for Skopje to join NATO and insists on solving the name dispute with its northern neighbour before giving the green light to its further integration into the European Union.

Solana said Macedonia could expect "good news in the coming days" about its citizens obtaining visa-free travel to most of the 27-nation bloc's member countries.

Gruevski expressed optimism of being able to fulfill remaining obligations to meet the criteria for the visa-free Schengen zone.

"Macedonia is in the final phase of finishing off the benchmarks," the Macedonian leader said.

The European Union is yet to set a date for membership talks to begin for Macedonia which was made an official EU candidate in December 2005.

What is the EU asking of Greece?
Dear Mr Solana, I would be concerned if Macedonia dropped its emotions in any way whatsoever. Especially when it comes to matters of identity.

[Napoleon]

Ironic especially coming from a person who originates from a 'country' (Spain) whose national identity is as fake as modern Greece. Like modern Greece, the modern Spanish nation was created via the persecution and assimilation of its minority populations.

Instead of trying to solve the 'name dispute' between Macedonia and Greece, maybe he should try to solve the problems in his own country between the Basques, Catalonians, Galicians, Andalusians, Castillians and the numerous other ethnic minorities that constitute the 'Spanish' nation of today

[Soldier of Macedon]

Let him re-christen himself to Northern Solana, then talk about emotions.

Emotions has everything to do with it, we are defending our identity against an immoral attack, how can this idiot possibly expect the Macedonian people not to feel emotion about their Macedonian identity?

[Risto the Great]

Let him re-christen himself to Northern Solana, then talk about emotions.

Ha ha.
That really is it in a nutshell.

And if he said he was fine about that, then it says more about him than he may care to admit.

But this really is the most obvious indication that the EU bats for its own and that justice has nothing to do with it.

[Risto the Great]

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n187534

Skopje. Negotiations on the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece are not EU responsibility but are important for the European Union as a whole. This is what the EU High Representative on Common Foreign and Security Policy Javier Solana said today after meeting with Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski, Macedonian online edition Forum reported.
"The question of differences about the name is important and must be solved by willingness on both sides," Solana claimed. "As you know, the person responsible for this process within the UN was in the region with ideas and observations. This is an open window of opportunity and as I told the Prime Minister it should not be allowed this window to be closed’, Solana said.

Why exactly is it important to change aspects in relation to the sovereignty of a nation?