Razer and Stefan - Bulgar morons

[Onur]

The photo of Plovdiv is from over 100 years ago. Most of the mosques were destroyed after the liberation and now I think there's only one in the old town:

You see the Roman stadium in the foreground? It was just renovated and opened for tourists, so the square where it is was renamed from "Mosque square" (because of the big old mosque there) to "Roman Stadium square". The local Muslims were not very happy, but what can they do...

You shouldn't brag about destroying ~500 year old mosques, only the primitive minded people does that.

Not wanting to see new ones in your country is absolutely a legitimate desire but bragging about destroying centuries old mosques is nothing but vandalism. Would you like Turks to do the same vandalism you did in Bulgaria? How about we destroy the iron church in Istanbul, would you like that too?

You are probably blinded by your prejudices atm but your demolition acts to the ~500 year old Ottoman era buildings was your own loss. Rather than having these historical monuments in Bulgaria today, you have shitty looking inartistic commie buildings built for proletarians. I saw lots of them when i gone to Bulgaria. So, you destroyed your own history and thats why Bulgaria still looks like an ugly commie state today.

Just ask this question to yourself;
If this is what supposed to be done, then why Ottoman empire didn't destroy the old churches in Bulgaria during our ~500 year old reign? Why they didn't destroy the ones in Anatolia? why the new Turkish republic didn't destroy your iron church?

[Risto the Great]

Just ask this question to yourself;
If this is what supposed to be done, then why Ottoman empire didn't destroy the old churches in Bulgaria during our ~500 year old reign? Why they didn't destroy the ones in Anatolia? why the new Turkish republic didn't destroy your iron church?

A good question Onur.
I genuinely do not think it was out of the goodness of their hearts. I just believe it would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. These people were already taxed to death. To take away such things of no importance to the Ottomans yet hugely symbolic to the local populations would have been careless in my opinion.

On another matter, I went to the best Turkish restaurant in the middle of China a few days ago. I had a glorious meal.

cheers

[Razer]

You’ve been told lies. The Turks did destroy pretty much every large city, with everything in them. Are you aware that those mosques where build on top of the ruins of churches? Are you aware that Bulgaria used to have 35 000 fortresses, of which only a small fraction is left. But the best example of the devastation the Turks executed when they conquered Bulgaria is the destruction of the old capital Veliko Turnovo. It was burned to the ground.

Just imagine that tomorrow Israel takes over Turkey, they destroy all the mosques and build synagogues on their place. After 500 years, during which Judaism is forced on the Turks, would you like to keep the synagogues, or you'd rather demolish them and rebuild the original churches? We both know the answer.

The bottom line is that Bulgaria is a Christian nation and we just can’t have a mosque on every few hundred meters. This is the Banya Bashi mosque in Sofia, which has been preserved and it fuction today:

[Razer]

And don't worry - plenty of mosques have been preserved, just not in the big cities, because there were too many of them. Here are just some of the authentic Ottoman mosques across Bulgaria.





This is the largest mosque in Bulgaria, build in 1744:



More mosques:

[Razer]

Demographics of Skopje:

[Phoenix]

Razer, what's your problem with the Turks...?

[Razer]

Who said I have one? I don't. I just thought Onur's comment was out of line.

[Phoenix]

Who said I have one? I don't. I just thought Onur's comment was out of line.

...I guess your real problem was with mosques then?

[Razer]

My only problem was with Onur saying that the Turks didn't destroyed any Bulgarian churches, and that all the mosques in Sofia and Plovdiv should have been preserved.

[Onur]

A good question Onur.
I genuinely do not think it was out of the goodness of their hearts. I just believe it would have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

The straw broke the camel`s back continuously for 550 years? I don't think so Risto. I am sure one of the camels could have hold on to it at least for once.

As you perfectly know, they could have destroy everything if they wanted to do so. Who could stop them in 1390s? EU courts of human rights? They just didn't and trying to guess their "hidden intention" for that is a bit absurd and unnecessary for today, am i wrong?

Are you aware that Bulgaria used to have 35 000 fortresses, of which only a small fraction is left. But the best example of the devastation the Turks executed when they conquered Bulgaria is the destruction of the old capital Veliko Turnovo. It was burned to the ground.

35.000 fortresses, when was that? Do you know the how was the pre-Ottoman Bulgaria and balkans in general? It was a mess razed to the ground because of constant wars and diseases. The destruction done by the Ottomans during 550 years is much less than the destruction done by the Byzantines due to conflicts between bulgars and Romans. It was also much less than the damage done by the crusaders or Nazi Germany if we consider the recent era.

The bottom line is that Bulgaria is a Christian nation and we just can’t have a mosque on every few hundred meters.

So you say that yourself and you posted the picture of Plovdiv with so many mosques. So do you really believe that all these mosques on every few 100 meters was once a church built before 1390s?

You contradict your claim because before 1390s, people had no money nor an opportunity to built as many as church. Also, converting a church to a mosque is better than destroying it. At least it`s preserved with that.

My only problem was with Onur saying that the Turks didn't destroyed any Bulgarian churches, and that all the mosques in Sofia and Plovdiv should have been preserved.

I didn't say "all the mosques", i said the ones which has historical importance should have been preserved, like the oldest, biggest and prettiest ones. But your Russian masters destroyed most of it without any exception in 1878.

You Bulgarians are not different from them tough. When your Russian masters sent you to Istanbul to your death in Balkan wars, you occupied the city of Edirne in eastern Thrace for a short time and the first thing of bulgarian army did was trying to demolish the mosque of Mimar Sinan. It is considered as one of the biggest and most beautiful buildings in the world. Your army commanders shoot it with artillery fire but it hold on and didn't demolish. It`s been said that the Bulgarian head general entered inside of it and stopped the artillery fire after seeing it`s beauty from inside. Today, it`s top dome still remains cracked, fractured. Ataturk purposely wanted to leave the mosque as damaged, so the future Turkish generations remembers the Bulgarian animosity and vandalism by looking at it.

This is the giant dome of the Selimiye mosque in Edirne. The several vertical lines you see on it, created with the artillery fire of Bulgarian army in 1912, purposely shoot to destroy it;

[Razer]

35.000 fortresses, when was that? Do you know the how was the pre-Ottoman Bulgaria and balkans in general? It was a mess razed to the ground because of constant wars and diseases. The destruction done by the Ottomans during 550 years is much less than the destruction done by the Byzantines due to conflicts between bulgars and Romans. It was also much less than the damage done by the crusaders or Nazi Germany if we consider the recent era.

I'm not surprised you're saying that, but I don't agree. Obviously you've been thought that the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans was something positive, and that you must be proud of it as a Turk. But I think it was the worse thing that happened to Bulgaria, and all the other Balkan nations. Bulgaria before the yoke was just as developed and advanced as Byzantium or any other Western country. The crusaders did little damage to Bulgaria since the Bulgarians defeated them. The Nazi also did not do any damage, since Bulgaria was fighting on their side for half of the war. The Americans and the British actually did more damage when they bombed Sofia, even after Bulgaria officially joined the Allies.

The most damage has been done by the Mongol invasion and the Ottoman conquest.

[Razer]

So as a Turk do you approve of the Ottoman conquest or not? Do you think it was right to invade the Balkan peninsula or not?

[Risto the Great]

The straw broke the camel`s back continuously for 550 years? I don't think so Risto. I am sure one of the camels could have hold on to it at least for once.

As you perfectly know, they could have destroy everything if they wanted to do so. Who could stop them in 1390s? EU courts of human rights? They just didn't and trying to guess their "hidden intention" for that is a bit absurd and unnecessary for today, am i wrong?

They certainly could have destroyed everything.
But again, the subjects were nothing more than taxpayers. Why encourage them to flee the region? It was a smart move.

For me to accept your perspective, I would have to assume fundamentalist Muslims of 500 years ago were somehow more progressive than the modern fundamentalist Muslims.

[Onur]

They certainly could have destroyed everything.
But again, the subjects were nothing more than taxpayers. Why encourage them to flee the region? It was a smart move.

Whatever the reason, i think trying to find the "hidden motives" in their mentality is something unnecessary. I consider the result rather than trying to figure out their "hidden motives", so in the end, they didn't destroy christian communities, period!!!

If they would have desire to do so, they didn't even have to destroy churches at all. They could have expel all the christians of Balkans to the north, to Hapsburg territories and convert all Balkans to a muslim Turkish land in just few decades in 1390s. If they would do so, the christianity of Balkans would have been something like a fairytale which no one even remembers today. BUT they didn't do such a thing. Thats what matters.

For me to accept your perspective, I would have to assume fundamentalist Muslims of 500 years ago were somehow more progressive than the modern fundamentalist Muslims.

Your perception to this issue, is vehemently wrong. Who told you that the Ottomans of 500 years ago was fundamentalist muslims? Where you come up with this idea?

First of all, fundamentalist muslims never tolerates other religions. Let alone other religions, they don't even tolerate different sects. As you know, catholics killed millions of Arians, Bogomils and Protestants in western Europe. Thats what fundamentalists does.

Another clue is the events of middle-east. After WW-1, Wahabbis took control of the Arabian peninsula and the first thing they did was destroying the churches and it`s still not allowed to built a church in there. But when these territories was part of the Ottoman empire for 500 years, no one even considered destroying those churches again.


So Risto, your ancestors in Macedonia continued to drink alcohol, smoke pot with nargiles and gone to a brothel or gone to a church according to their will. Even muslims did the same during Ottoman era. You call this a fundamentalist muslim reign? If yes, then i am sorry but you don't know what fundamentalism is.

[Razer]

The Turks didn't destroyed everything, but they came pretty close. To deny that is to deny reality. I live just outside Sofia in the area where the Bulgarians made one of their last stands against the Ottomans. There is an old fortress about 10 km from my home, called Urvich. It's pretty well hidden in he mountains, right on top of a cliff. This fortress remained Bulgarian even after the fall of Sofia, but it was finally taken and destroyed, together with the monasteries near by.