Razer and Stefan - Bulgar morons

[DraganOfStip]

You shouldn't brag about destroying ~500 year old mosques, only the primitive minded people does that.

Not wanting to see new ones in your country is absolutely a legitimate desire but bragging about destroying centuries old mosques is nothing but vandalism. Would you like Turks to do the same vandalism you did in Bulgaria? How about we destroy the iron church in Istanbul, would you like that too?

You are probably blinded by your prejudices atm but your demolition acts to the ~500 year old Ottoman era buildings was your own loss. Rather than having these historical monuments in Bulgaria today, you have shitty looking inartistic commie buildings built for proletarians. I saw lots of them when i gone to Bulgaria. So, you destroyed your own history and thats why Bulgaria still looks like an ugly commie state today.

Just ask this question to yourself;
If this is what supposed to be done, then why Ottoman empire didn't destroy the old churches in Bulgaria during our ~500 year old reign? Why they didn't destroy the ones in Anatolia? why the new Turkish republic didn't destroy your iron church?

There's an old church/mosque in my hometown of Stip (damn it,I forgot what it was called,I have the name at the tip of my tongue) today that symbolizes the coexistence between Christianity and Islam.It was built ages ago (not sure exactly when) as a church I think,then it was demolished and a mosque was built on the foundations,and then the mosque was demolished and a church was erected on those foundations (not sure how many times it was demolished and rebuilt as a church/mosque,the legend varies).Today it's like a monument behind the textile secondary school and is a very popular place for young people to get away at night from the stresses of modern life,the top has a great panorama view and one can gaze at the stars for eternity (actually I had my first kiss there ).It's purpose ceased long time ago,but today both Orthodox Christians and Muslims (the few of them that live in Stip) occasionally go to clear their minds or say a prayer.And not one single incident is noted to have happened between them.

[Voltron]

No matter how you sugar coat it, mosques do not belong in Europe. Period.
Using the example if how would you like it if the Ottomans did that is irrelevent for two reasons.

1) They did (They plastered Haghia Sophia since they were to lazy to build their own)
2) Its a foreign religion that came later so its a mute point to begin with.

Get rid of them all, or convert them to churches. To keep having them is akin to accepting an ex-tenent's belongings in your house after you evict them.

[Razer]

Well, I think Muslims should have their own places of worship. I don't agree with their religion, but who are we to judge.

[George S.]

They should keep it in a proportunate way not building a couple of mosques for every village.

[Onur]

No matter how you sugar coat it, mosques do not belong in Europe. Period.

1) They did (They plastered Haghia Sophia since they were to lazy to build their own)
2) Its a foreign religion that came later so its a mute point to begin with.

Get rid of them all, or convert them to churches. To keep having them is akin to accepting an ex-tenent's belongings in your house after you evict them.

This is Saudi Wahhabi mentality. I think i already told you that before; We all know that Greece and Saudi Arabia states are the sole examples in the world where it`s forbidden to build mosque and church respectively.

Btw for how many times i should remind you that the christianity is equally foreign to Europe just as islam? The birthplace of christianity is the Judea-Arabian peninsula named Palestine and Jesus was a jew himself too. Mohammad born in not far from there either. Both semitic beliefs created in some middle-eastern shithole are equally foreign to Europe.

[Bill77]

Mehmet the conquerer was Greek. Hell it took a Greek to take the city.
Who did you think it was, this guy ?

Today there are still millions of Mehmet's in Greece. They have just changed their names to Mani or something completely different like Stavro.

No matter how you sugar coat it, mosques do not belong in Europe. Period.

neither do these so called Greeks.....but what can you do.

[Razer]

It's true that Europe's original religion was paganism, if you can even call it a religion...But Christianity was adopted long time before Islam. The Arabs tried twice to invade Europe, and establish Islam, before the Ottomans finally succeed in the 14th century. The first time it was in 717 AD when a huge Arab army of 120 000 to 200 0000 troops besieged Constantinople. But the Buglars came to the rescue of Byzantine and pushing them back. The second time was in 732 AD at the Battle of Tours. Both attempts failed, and Islam was out of Europe for the next 6 centuries.

[Bill77]

Euronews interview with Gjorge Ivanov:

We need EU membership” – FYR Macedonia’s president

What a bullshit Headline. I like this better,

President Ivanov tells EuroNews: Greece must accept Macedonia

Monday, 25 June 2012

Greece needs to accept this new reality called "The Republic of Macedonia", where Macedonians live and speak Macedonian. The Greeks are still living with a view from the 19th century: they have created this myth of their existence, from a time when you couldn't check the facts, when there was no Internet, and they are still trapped by this perception that they have created themselves - Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov said in an interview with Euronews, when asked about his message to Athens to break the deadlock and to prevent further blockades of Macedonia's EU and NATO integration.

President Ivanov said he expected the new government in Greece to respect the reality and to be open for cooperation.

"There is cooperation in business, culture, and arts. Artists, musicians and students exchange ideas. But there has been no meeting between political parties nor between the presidents over the last 20 years, even though I've sent four invitations to the (Greek) President. We expect that with the elections in Greece leaders will emerge who will respect the new reality, both in terms of Macedonia and also in terms of other neighbours. And finally we expect that Greece will take its leading position in the region again," Ivanov stated.

Asked how he perceived the fact that in Skopje huge statues of ancient warriors and heroes were being built, which was seen by Athens as "an unfriendly act", Ivanov said it represented a preservation of the cultural heritage.

"We are a UNESCO member state and that obliges us to preserve, nurture and cherish the entire cultural heritage found on our land. It’s not our fault that there is so much history in our region," the President responded.

Asked to comment recent inter-ethnic tensions in Macedonia, he said that those were isolated cases and that Macedonia had managed to solve these issues related to "mixing political and ethnic background."

"Macedonia is a model of inclusion of all differences and diversities in society. Macedonia, compared to other countries in the region, has managed to implement a real level of integration. There is a problem when politics concentrate on ethnicity, because some individuals try to mobilize voters by abusing the public arena. But Macedonia managed to survive all the problems linked to the ethnicity in politics. Those isolated, individual cases of tensions can not be generalized," says Ivanov.

Rising tensions and violence, according to the President, have taken place prior to the NATO summit in Chicago, which "is often the case before such gatherings."

"Some people don’t want a stabilised Balkans. There are still politicians in the Balkans who are slaves to the perceptions of the past."

Asked whether the 2001 war conflict in Macedonia could be repeated given the recent ethnic tensions, President Ivanov responded: "There is a description of the Balkans as a powder-keg. But, this keg has never been lit here in our southern part of the Balkans.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/21301/1/

[Dejan]

It's true that Europe's original religion was paganism, if you can even call it a religion...But Christianity was adopted long time before Islam. The Arabs tried twice to invade Europe, and establish Islam, before the Ottomans finally succeed in the 14th century. The first time it was in 717 AD when a huge Arab army of 120 000 to 200 0000 troops besieged Constantinople. But the Buglars came to the rescue of Byzantine and pushing them back. The second time was in 732 AD at the Battle of Tours. Both attempts failed, and Islam was out of Europe for the next 6 centuries.

Define 'bulgar'

[Risto the Great]

Whatever the reason, i think trying to find the "hidden motives" in their mentality is something unnecessary. I consider the result rather than trying to figure out their "hidden motives", so in the end, they didn't destroy christian communities, period!!!

If they would have desire to do so, they didn't even have to destroy churches at all. They could have expel all the christians of Balkans to the north, to Hapsburg territories and convert all Balkans to a muslim Turkish land in just few decades in 1390s. If they would do so, the christianity of Balkans would have been something like a fairytale which no one even remembers today. BUT they didn't do such a thing. Thats what matters.

I have said the Macedonian identity was far better preserved under Ottoman occupation than the Greek occupation of the last 100 years. We agree. But we seem to disagree as to why. No big deal. I am sure many churches were converted to mosques over this time also.

Your perception to this issue, is vehemently wrong. Who told you that the Ottomans of 500 years ago was fundamentalist muslims? Where you come up with this idea?

First of all, fundamentalist muslims never tolerates other religions. Let alone other religions, they don't even tolerate different sects. As you know, catholics killed millions of Arians, Bogomils and Protestants in western Europe. Thats what fundamentalists does.

Another clue is the events of middle-east. After WW-1, Wahabbis took control of the Arabian peninsula and the first thing they did was destroying the churches and it`s still not allowed to built a church in there. But when these territories was part of the Ottoman empire for 500 years, no one even considered destroying those churches again.


So Risto, your ancestors in Macedonia continued to drink alcohol, smoke pot with nargiles and gone to a brothel or gone to a church according to their will. Even muslims did the same during Ottoman era. You call this a fundamentalist muslim reign? If yes, then i am sorry but you don't know what fundamentalism is.

Don't wear green clothes, get off your horse when a muslim rides your way, mosques must be higher than churches, no right to arms .... the rules go on. It wasn't tolerance, it was much closer to slavery.

I am yet to smoke a nargile and drink alcohol in a brothel ... sounds like a big night. I fear my ancestors may have missed out on such activities, they were too busy being oppressed one way or another for the last 600 years. But that is life. I am more worried about the RoMacedonians now who are oppressing themselves.

[Risto the Great]

@ Onur

So do you approve of the Ottomans conquering the Balkan peninsula?

What sort of question is this?
Can we approve of any power conquering anyone?

[Razer]

I only asked Onur about it because it seems he doesn't realises what a disaster it was for all the nations on the Balkans. It was worse than anything before or since, altogether the Communist regime was also devastating.

Dejan, how exactly do you want me to define Buglars?

[DraganOfStip]

There's an old church/mosque in my hometown of Stip (damn it,I forgot what it was called,I have the name at the tip of my tongue) today that symbolizes the coexistence between Christianity and Islam.It was built ages ago (not sure exactly when) as a church I think,then it was demolished and a mosque was built on the foundations,and then the mosque was demolished and a church was erected on those foundations (not sure how many times it was demolished and rebuilt as a church/mosque,the legend varies).Today it's like a monument behind the textile secondary school and is a very popular place for young people to get away at night from the stresses of modern life,the top has a great panorama view and one can gaze at the stars for eternity (actually I had my first kiss there ).It's purpose ceased long time ago,but today both Orthodox Christians and Muslims (the few of them that live in Stip) occasionally go to clear their minds or say a prayer.And not one single incident is noted to have happened between them.

Yup,finally remember - it's called the church of Sveti Ilija (st. Elijah),AKA Husa Medin Pasha mosque,here's some info from the historyofstip website:

http://historyofstip.blogspot.com/2008/12/husa-medin-pasha-mosque-st-ilija-16th.html

and here's a photo of it,unfortunately it doesn't show the minaret which is located on the other side



and taken from Wiki about it:

Husa Medin-Pasha Mosque - this mosque was built in the 17th century on the remains of a church called St. Ilija. It is located on a hill on the left side of town. Husa Medin Pasha's grave is located right next to the mosque.

[Razer]

Looks cool. I hope it's restored and turned into a tourist attraction.

[DraganOfStip]

Looks cool. I hope it's restored and turned into a tourist attraction.

When the Ottomans were finally defeated and left Macedonia in 1912 the locals demolished the mosque (an act of pure revolt from the 500 year Ottoman yoke) and even though it wasn't officially turned back into a church,people gathered there on st.Elijah's day every year or in times of trouble to just say a prayer and light a candle.I believe the ceremonies stopped after Stip was bombed by the Germans in WWII and it's out of use ever since.It was originally built as a church in 13th-14th century and then turned into a mosque in the Ottoman era in the 17th century.