Turkish forces liquidated 15 women PKK fighters

[George S.]

RTG if macedonia is not an ally then macedonia is really nothing with turkey apart from trade & cultural exchanges.I was under the impression that they signed peace pacts that neither would attack each other & was under impression that we were an allie with turkey.Otherwise it's just a nominal exercise of what is expected from one country with another.I thought they were signatories as allies that each could come to each other's aid if needed by invitation only.So RtG it's all very well to be just friends with each other but we can't help each other in times of trouble like a war.Originally there were press releases that supposedly turkey would come to macedonia's aid if during the spill over of yugoslavia.Turkey offering to be a buffer to greece crossing over in the event of a war.
But all these could be fancifull ideas reported in the press or turkey wanted to use macedonia to put a foothold & partcipate in the bosnian war.So really where macedonia is concerned the better not invite other countries to fight their wars.I think from this frienship thing & peacepacts that we were an allie & turkey would come to our aid.THe other thing there are people out there that think we should not be friends with turkey at any level despite of what they did to us in the past i can understand & i fully respect that but in these times & if turkey has acknowledge the past wrongs we have to move on like all other civil people.So as people were saying i'ts not such a big thing of turkey & macedonia being friends and note the turks are doing it more so for their own interests.I think it's much clearer now that we are not really an "allie"

[Onur]

Turkey is not Macedonia's ally.

Here is a definition:
A state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose, typically by treaty.

According to this definition, Turkey is an ally of Macedonia because both your special police and military force getting trained in Turkey by Turkish instructors and Turkish government donates military equipment to Macedonia for more than a decade.

Even if Turkey was an ally with the present leadership of Macedonia, then (since the present leadership is anti-Macedonian) Turkey would also be an enemy of Macedonians.

Thats your own opinion about Macedonia`s internal issue. Turkey cannot interfere Macedonian internal politics and cannot decide what Macedonian people votes.

[George S.]

So are we an alli or not??At what level is the training both military or special police is it one that we are an allie or just the normal run of the mill.Also are we getting military weapons from turkey as a donation for the last 10 years again would that imply an allie relationship??
Where can one see document's that we are an allie with turkey that would resolve everything.Treaty pacts of non agression,Pacts to coperate with military aid??Peace pacts??Pacts to do the training for them & donate arms??Is macedonia just a "friend"or an Alli ??In other words do they have a special relationship is it all secret that they can't reveal what they are doing???So where are those treaties???

[George S.]

Turkish Armed Forces. It is one of the largest standing armies in the world and the second largest army of NATO
Friday, 14 October 2011

The Turkish Army has donated 18 military Land Rovers, 95 field telephones and night vision equipment to the Macedonian Army.

Turkish Ambassador to Macedonia Sokmensuer mentioned there would be another donation worth $1.15 million by the end of the year which will provide additional equipment to Mak's special operational units.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/19359/...

Turkish Military To Donate $750,000 of Domestic-Produced APCs to Macedonian Army


(Balkanalysis.com Security and Intelligence Brief 5) On July 3, the Macedonian Information Agency reported that the government of Turkey has made a new military grant to the Macedonian Army, with a value of $750,000. A total of $15 million worth of military equipment has been donated by Turkey since 1994.

The latest deal was signed by Macedonia’s Deputy Chief of General Staff, Major General Adil Gazafer, and Turkish Brigadier General Ali Akdogah, Chief of the Department for Defense Planning, in the presence of Turkish Ambassador to Macedonia Taner Karakas. According to MIA, the ambassador stated that the donation “aims at support to Macedonia’s efforts for integration in the Euro-Atlantic structures.”

The current donation will involve motorized military vehicles and means for connection “produced in Turkey and compatible with NATO standards,” announced MIA.

Turkey’s strategic interest in Macedonia owes both to its own former longtime role in the Balkans (the Ottoman Empire ruled in Macedonia until 1913), and to the opportunity it has had to gain influence in light of the continuing dispute between Macedonia and Greece over the name issue. While the two sides bickered, Turkey quietly asserted itself in the Balkans, to the detriment of Greece.

Both regional giants would like to impress their own stamp on the Balkans. So far, Greece has taken the lead economically, with major investments in all the Balkan countries. In Macedonia, however, Turkey has been trying to make up ground. The most modern shopping mall in Skopje, RamStore, was built by Turkey’s largest company, the giant Koc Holding.

It is likely that Koc has used its presence in the market to take advantage of the defense grants market. Defense sources in Skopje indicate that the “motorized vehicles” in question are going to be armored transport carriers made by the Otokar company, a subsidiary of Koc.

Otokar had the ambitious aspiration of making Turkey self-reliant for its ATC needs and even developing export channels. A Balkanalysis.com report from August 2005 discusses the details of Otokar’s production capability, its export deals and strategic aspirations. The Otokar website gives details of current international deals – without specifying countries by name – and reveals that its 2005 sales amounted to an 85 percent increase in the APC market. The largest deal was worth $88.4, for APCs destined for one of the 15foreign countries Otokar services.

The Turkish production and design were carried out with cooperation from Am General, the Indiana company that created the Humvee. Turkey’s move from being a mere recipient of military aid to becoming a competitive producer is changing the dynamic, if slowly, in regional arms sales.

http://www.balkanalysis.com/security...cedonian-army/

[Risto the Great]

According to this definition, Turkey is an ally of Macedonia because both your special police and military force getting trained in Turkey by Turkish instructors and Turkish government donates military equipment to Macedonia for more than a decade.

I suppose it is by that definition. I tend to think the term "ally" is overrated. Most people automatically assume an ally of Macedonia will immediately help defend Macedonia. We know this was not the case with Turkey in 2001.

By your assessment above, Macedonia also has other allies. They have entirely competing interests. Ultimately, the concept is meaningless until it is tested. Truthfully, I'm not entirely confident that anyone can be altruistic. I am positive a nation cannot be altruistic.

Onur, why do you think Turkey donated military equipment to the Macedonian army recently? What is the agenda? Do you think it helped that the defense minister was an ethnic Albanian (Muslim)?

[George S.]

balkan insight:
"Ankara has remained Skopje’s biggest ally since Macedonia declared independence from the former Yugoslav republic in 1991. "
Turkey, who is the second biggest supporter of Macedonia’s NATO membership bid after the US, is the only NATO member to insist that every alliance document carries a footnote on the use of the name FYROM. The footnote reads: Turkey recognises Macedonia under its constitutional name.
n March 2010, Ahmet Davutoglu, the Turkish foreign minister, met his Macedonian counterpart, Antonio Milososki, in Skopje and fully expressed his nations support in one sentence: "The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, wherever they are in the world can, if they need help, call the embassies of Turkey. They will get help, as they are Turkish citizens."
the rest of the article
10 FEB 11 / 08:57:47
Macedonia-Turkey: The Ties That Bind
While Ankara maintains close diplomatic relations with Skopje, cemented by their shared political enmity toward Greece, Turkey must step carefully when it comes to inter-ethnic disputes within ‘the heart of the Balkans’.
By Darko Duridanski Skopje and Bitola


Standing outside the Ottoman army barracks building, now the National Museum, in Macedonia’s second city Bitola, it is not immediately obvious the site is a shrine for Turks.

Yet almost every weekend, a bus laden with Turkish tourists pulls up outside the museum.

Visiting the nineteenth century barracks where Mustafa Kemal Ataturk – the founding father of modern Turkey – lived and studied is something of a pilgrimage for the several thousand Turkish tourists who, according to the museum, journey here each year.

"When they see the building and read the sign in front of it -The founder and first president of modern Turkey Ataturk finished military high school in this building - they are stunned.

"But when they enter the room, they are astonished. They see the wax figure of Ataturk and they are so excited that some of them begin to cry,” says Senol Memis, a Macedonian of Turkish ethnicity and president of the Association for Macedonian-Turkish Friendship based in Bitola.

The story of Ataturk is the story of the Macedonian-Turkish friendship that endures to this day. Ankara has remained Skopje’s biggest ally since Macedonia declared independence from the former Yugoslav republic in 1991.

The two nations have been further united by their shared political enmity with Greece over disputed territory, history and the use of the name Macedonia.

Macedonia came under direct Ottoman rule for more than 500 years, until the Ottomans retreated from Europe following the 1912 Balkan war.

Ataturk, who was born in Thessaloniki (now in Greece) in 1881, attended military school in Bitola from 1896 to 1899. His father was born in the village of Kodzadzik, in western Macedonia. He went on to become an army officer during World War One and president of the newly-founded Republic of Turkey in 1924.

Macedonia’s Turkish Minority
• 77,000 ethnic Turks live in Macedonia*
• Ethnic Turks have the right to primary education in the Turkish language
• There are two political parties representing the Turkish minority
• The Turkish agency TIKA is supporting the reconstruction of Ottoman monuments, including mosques, hamams (Turkish baths) and old bazaars
• Turkish soap operas are hugely popular among Macedonian TV viewers prompting, some say, a rise in the number of Macedonians learning the Turkish language
• Theatre productions are regularly staged in the Turkish language

* Source: Macedonian 2001 census

Timeline: Turkey and Macedonia
"The emotions Turks feel for Macedonia are specific. Because of the common history, we [Macedonians] have always been treated by the Turks as one of the smallest, and most beloved, children,” says Stevo Pendarovski, foreign affairs professor at the University American College in Skopje.

"Even if you talk to people that have been to Turkey only on holidays, they will tell you that Turks treat Macedonians with unreserved friendship", he adds.

Ataturk, who died in 1938 in Istanbul, is not the only key Turkish figure to have close ties to Macedonia. Dozens of leading Turkish politicians and army generals, past and present, have Macedonian roots.

While official figures are hard to come by as questions regarding Macedonian roots have not been included in the latest Turkish census, it is estimated that as many as six million people living in Turkey today have Macedonian ancestry.

Many migrated immediately after the 1912 and 1913 Balkan wars and during the 1950s, when many Muslims opted to leave communist Macedonia behind and moved to Turkey for religious and economic reasons.

The biggest concentration of Macedonian Turks can be found in the cities of Manisa and Izmir in western Turkey. Many still speak Macedonian and strive to keep their ancestral traditions alive by organising myriad cultural and sporting events in Turkey and Macedonia.

There are numerous Turkish-Macedonian associations, and dozens of groups on Facebook dedicated to furthering and supporting Macedonian-Turk friendship and relations.

In recent times, Turkey earned the unswerving loyalty of many Macedonians after Ankara became the second country – Bulgaria was first - to publicly support Skopje’s declaration of independence and use of the name Macedonia in 1991.

It has also cemented ties between the two nations – particularly with regard to their complicated relations with Greece.

Dispute with Greece

Skopje’s use of the name Macedonia has angered her southern neighbour, as many Greeks believe the name is purely Hellenic. Greece’s refusal to recognise Macedonia also reflects Greek fears that Skopje wishes to reclaim land in Greek territory.

In 1993, Macedonia was forced to accept the provisional name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, FYROM, in order to become a member of the UN.

The already highly-charged name issue erupted once again in 2007, when Skopje changed the name of its international airport to the Alexander the Great airport – prompting Athens to oppose Macedonian membership of NATO.

Turkey, who is the second biggest supporter of Macedonia’s NATO membership bid after the US, is the only NATO member to insist that every alliance document carries a footnote on the use of the name FYROM. The footnote reads: Turkey recognises Macedonia under its constitutional name.

In March 2010, Ahmet Davutoglu, the Turkish foreign minister, met his Macedonian counterpart, Antonio Milososki, in Skopje and fully expressed his nations support in one sentence: "The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, wherever they are in the world can, if they need help, call the embassies of Turkey. They will get help, as they are Turkish citizens."

Gjuner Ismail, a Macedonian ethnic Turk and former culture minister in the 1990s Macedonian government, says Turkey has always helped and supported Macedonia because it is in Ankara’s own interests to do so.

"Turkey has supported Macedonia, and I stress this, continuously and unconditionally. Turkey has never set any conditions on its support for Macedonia", says Ismail, who is now president of the Macedonian think-tank FORUM - Center for Strategic Research and Documentation.

He says that support was vital back in 1995, when Greece imposed an economic blockade in response to Skopje’s use of the name Macedonia.

While Greece closed its border with Macedonia, Skopje could not import from neighbouring Serbia as Belgrade was under UN-imposed sanctions. Queues several kilometres long were not an uncommon sight at gas stations during this time.

The long lines were slightly shortened after Turkey began sending shipments of oil to Macedonia via Bulgaria.

Turkey’s Path to Europe
1959: Turkey applies for associate membership of the EEC
1963: Ankara signs association agreement with the EEC
1987: Turkey applies to join the EC
1999: Ankara recognised as EU candidate on equal footing with other potential members
2005: The European Commission recommends negotiations for Turkish accession begin, but talks stall over domestic and international issues, including poor relations with Greece/Cyprus dispute.
Austria and France oppose Turkey’s full membership of the EU
Macedonia’s Path to Europe

2001: Macedonia signs an association and stabilisation agreement with the EU
2004: Macedonia applies for EU membership
2005: Macedonia is officially granted EU candidate status by the European Council
2009: The EU council of ministers recommends Skopje begin accession talks but does not set a date because of the unresolved dispute with Greece over the use of the name Macedonia

Ismail recounts other examples of Turkish support for Macedonia in difficult times: "When we [Macedonia] were supposed to be accepted as a member of UNESCO, the Macedonian delegation of five people was scheduled to speak on the sixteenth day of the conference.

“That was impossible for us, because it was too expensive at that time to stay for three weeks in Paris".

“But then the chief of the Turkish delegation, who was supposed to talk on the fourth day, stepped back and freed the place for Macedonia,” he recalls, adding that many Macedonian diplomatic victories have been pushed for by Turkey.

Davutoglu again demonstrated this support during his visit to Skopje in March 2010: “Turkey gives great attention to the political stability and prosperity of Macedonia because it is the heart of the Balkans.

“That is why Ankara was one of the first countries that recognised Macedonia under its constitutional name. I believe that the path of Macedonia towards the EU should be opened and the Turkish support for NATO membership for Macedonia will continue".

“We will always be on the same side as Macedonia because its success is also our success."

However, some analysts believe Macedonian politicians rely too heavily upon, and too readily presume, Turkish support.

"Macedonian politicians are not reacting honestly and correctly to Turkish support. The political elites know that Macedonia is part of a bigger picture, a bigger interest, and that is why they behave this way", Ismail says.

"Macedonian politicians draw this simple conclusion - Turkey is helping us because we are an enemy of their enemy [Greece] and that is why their support will stay", he adds.

Warm relations, poor economic ties

Yet despite extraordinarily warm political relations, trade between the two countries remains poorly developed.

Professor Pendarovski believes Macedonian politicians themselves have stymied potentially lucrative economic ties between Ankara and Skopje.

He says Macedonia’s political leadership has shown no interest in granting favourable conditions to Turkish investors, relying instead on Turkish goodwill and historical ties.

"Emotions are great, but in business you have to earn something”, warns Pendarovski.

"That is why there is not a single Turkish politician who will not use the diplomatic phrase ‘we have great relations, but we also have unused potential in the economy’. After that, he will explain that they are not seeking ‘special conditions’ but simply want the same conditions given to Greek investors.”

The Greeks, who are widely regarded as Macedonia’s political enemy because of the name dispute, are, ironically, Skopje’s biggest investor and business partner, according to the National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia.

At the end of the nineties and into the early 2000s, Greek investors and Greek state companies were allowed to buy strategically important companies, with attractive concessions.

For example, in 1999, the Greek state firm Hellenic Petroleum bought a Macedonian oil refinery near Skopje. As part of the deal, the Macedonian government undertook an obligation to repurchase 500,000 tonnes of petroleum jelly over the next 20 years.

Greek investment in Macedonia for 2009 totalled €380m, far more than the €49m invested by Turkey the same year, according to the bank.

Trade figures tell the same story, with the Skopje-based Macedonian Institute for Statistics valuing trade volume between Turkey and Macedonia at €210m during 2010. Trade between Athens and Skopje far outstripped that, valued at €484m for the same year.

Along with favourable concessions, Sam Vaknin, an economist and former economics adviser to the Macedonian government, believes Greece is the bigger investor in Macedonia because Greek companies "invested in Macedonia as part of a larger, long-term, and government-supported plan to invest in the Balkans, and thus increase Greek influence".

"The Turks at that time [the end of the 1990s into the early 2000s] considered Macedonia as not very interesting and a very inhospitable business environment. The Turks are the ones who decided to invest very little here. The investors are afraid, first and foremost, of inefficiency, corruption and favouritism,” he says.

Vaknin thinks that the Macedonian market was not on Turkey's radar until 2005, when Vlado Buckovski became prime minister and started working hard to attract more Turkish investors, an initiative that has been continued by Nikola Gruevski, the current prime minister.

Government attempts to court Turkish investors have begun to yield fruit in the past couple of years. In 2008, the Turkish company TAV won the tender to operate Macedonia’s two airports - Skopje and Ohrid - for 20 years and build another in the town of Stip in 10 years.

The deal, which stipulates TAV must refurbish the airports, build new, longer runways and cargo buildings is worth around €200 million over two years.

While Ankara’s long-standing political support for and burgeoning economic relationship with Skopje is beyond question, some believe Turkey should use its influence to help defuse ethnic and religious tensions within Macedonia.

Ankara would be, the reasoning goes, a useful buffer should inter-ethnic tensions again boil over into violent unrest.

Relations between Macedonia’s different ethnic communities have been tense for years, particularly since the ethnic Albanian minority have demanded more rights. This boiled over into a six-month military conflict in 2001, resolved by the Ohrid Peace Agreement of the same year. Since then, the threat of new conflicts has never truly disappeared.

However, it appears there are limits to Turkish influence in Macedonia after all. One former government adviser, who asked not to be identified, warns not all Macedonian citizens would regard Turkey as a welcome influence.

In particular, Macedonia’s 500,000 ethnic Albanians fear Turkish dominance in the country could come at the price of their identity – despite shared religious and cultural heritage.

"Turkey… if it wants to help in future, has to be very careful… the problem is that at the moment they are more accepted by the Macedonians than the ethnic Albanians. And to be a buffer, you have to have equal legitimacy among ethnic groups,” cautions the former government adviser.

This article was produced as part of the Balkan Fellowship for Journalistic Excellence's Alumni Initiative, established and funded by the Robert Bosch Stiftung and ERSTE Foundation.

[George S.]

Military Cooperation Between Turkey and Macedonia

As a beginning of military relations between the two countries, a “Security Protocol” was signed in Ankara on May 18th 1992. Military relations have been centering especially on military training assistance and on grants given for logistical support of the Macedonian army. Military training assistance is carried out in accordance with the “Military Training Cooperation Agreement” signed in 1994. Also, a “Defense Industry Cooperation Agreement” was signed between the two countries in April 1995. (31)

Since 1998, at least 82 Macedonian military personnel have received long-term training in several military schools in Turkey, such as the Turkish War Academy, the Military Academy, and the Gulhane Military Medical Academy (GATA). Moreover, short-term courses have been organized for about 550 Macedonian personnel in Partnership for Peace Center and the Center of Excellence Defense Against Terrorism. (32)

Yet another development in military relations between the two countries was the access of 3,500 multinational NATO troops into Macedonia in order to disarm the Albanian militants (KLA) as of August 17th 2001 after the cease-fire between Macedonian government and Albanian armed groups. A vanguard team of 150 troops, which was deployed by Turkish General Staff and will have operated under English command, began to negotiations with English commandership and Macedonian security units in Skopje. The mission of the Turkish troops was determined as trying to make sure that the Albanian militants lay down their arms voluntarily (33).

As from 1998, the total amount of grants given by Turkey in order to support the Macedonian army has exceeded $16 million. On October 14th 2011, Turkish General Staff granted military materials valued at approximately $900,000 in order to equip both the Macedonian Special Forces Battalion and the Logistic Support Battalion. The equipment donations was marked with a ceremony, and in a speech given at the ceremony, Turkey’s Ambassador to Skopje Gürol Sökmensüer stated that Turkey’s support for Macedonia’s membership in EU and NATO will increasingly continue in every platform.

http://www.bilgesam.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=496:turkey-macedonia-relations&catid=95:analizler-balkanlar&Itemid=80

[George S.]

Foreign experts and local officials agree. “Turkey remains Macedonia's single best regional ally, both in real terms and in potential impact on the Macedonian economy and culture,” says Kent Patton, a former US State Department official responsible for the Middle East and North Africa. According to Patton, who currently runs a consulting firm and has been involved in Macedonian politics at all levels since 1997, “the current Macedonian government recognizes the value of Turkey, and the Turkish minority. … The government and their Turkish coalition partners should do all they can to continue building institutions and events that highlight the contributions of Turks to the history and development of the region.”

One of the more perceptive European diplomats on the Balkans, former Norwegian Ambassador to Macedonia Carl Schiotz Wibye, adds that “even though Turkey is not yet in the EU, it is Macedonia's main regional ally, and can help fulfill Macedonia's national interests in many ways. Emphasizing Turkey's historic contributions and legacy in Macedonia would, therefore, be a wise long-term strategy for Macedonian leaders.”

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-201448-109-centerturkeys-heritage-in-europe-a-new-role-for-macedoniabr-i-by-i-brchris-delisocenter.html

[Onur]

Onur, why do you think Turkey donated military equipment to the Macedonian army recently? What is the agenda? Do you think it helped that the defense minister was an ethnic Albanian (Muslim)?

As George posted the article above, a security protocol signed between Turkey and Macedonia in 1992 and Turkey supports Macedonian police+army since that day.

But it`s becoming pointless to argue about that with you or other people here. You guys can believe whatever you like, whether it`s a islamic conspiracy, reborn of Ottoman empire from Skopje, a plot to hurt your "relations with Serbia&Greece aka your orthodox brothers or whatever it`s.

If thats what you believe, then start a campaign for Macedonian government to refuse free donations from Turkey or at least spraying holy water on the equipments came from "muslim" Turkey.

I have no idea what you expect from me to say but i can see that this discussion reached a dead end because it`s obvious that your conspiracy theories about Turkey have no limit. You even think about if Turkey donates these equipments because your defense minister is a muslim!!! No matter what i say, it wont matter, it`s useless.

[Risto the Great]

Obviously you don't think the recent donation was influenced by the defense minister. I only asked your thoughts. It seems to be one of the largest donations from Turkey.

But it`s becoming pointless to argue about that with you or other people here. You guys can believe whatever you like, whether it`s a islamic conspiracy, reborn of Ottoman empire from Skopje, a plot to hurt your "relations with Serbia&Greece aka your orthodox brothers or whatever it`s.

You haven't answered WHY this support even exists.

I still don't believe Turkey is doing this out of the goodness of its heart and question its motivations. All donations are welcomed by a poor country though.

Could this support be backdoor support coming from the USA? There has been some very strange arrangements between USA & Turkey in the past.

Turkey did absolutely nothing to help Macedonians in 2001. In fact, I have vague recollections of Muslim sympathies being directed towards the ethnic Albanians at the time.

What are your thoughts on this?

[George S.]

onur maybe the equipment is boobytrapped designed to fire at the user.I'm having my doubsts about this allie business dispelled .Macedonia is a signatory of that security pact signed with turkey.So that is proof that they are allies anything else is just a conspiracy theory.The sprinkling of holy water may render the equipment useless as it's going to rust up but shaking the incense smoke over it is going to improve performance drastically by 10 to 1..

[Risto the Great]

George, I'm sure the equipment is fine.
We got some trucks, telephones and night vision goggles recently, they either work or don't in my opinion.

The question is why did we get them.

(I would check the telephones though!)

What will Macedonia do in the next civil war if it's ally Turkey says it needs to be more sympathetic to the ethnic Albanians?

[George S.]

Good question RTG or how about if turkey supplies Alabanians with A grade military equipment is that another conspiracy theory???Where would their allegiances lie.??I suppose having night vision helps provided your enemy doesn't have them as well.As for the field telephones they might come in handy when the cell phones cut out.
As to why we got the equipment i don't know.Is the equipment etc some old thing that was going to get thrown out or was it a genuine need to supply the macedonian army??Who knows?I suppose getting it for free do we ask these sort of questions it might be a sign of ungreatfullness??Then again being an allie does it mean the'll come in to fight our war.??Offer peace keeping forces??what sort of assistance is it just military oe manpower.???As you said what happens if there is conflict of interest.

[Risto the Great]

is that another conspiracy theory???

Not a conspiracy theory. Just something to bear in mind, that is all. Current communication between Macedonia & Turkey is via an ethnic Albanian defense minister. Do you think he will be immediately forgotten if a civil war erupts? I would imagine Turkey will remember him and not treat him like an enemy of Macedonia (if he chooses to lead a group of insurgents against Macedonia).

What this all means is that Macedonia is a basket case and the leadership of Macedonia is a product of the Macedonian people's wishes. Therefore nobody can avoid blame ... except those of us who cannot vote.

[George S.]

excellent point.We in the diaspora couldn't influence the amnesty for terrorists thing what other hope is there.Look at the assurances or lack of that we had about kosovo spill over in a conflict .Ahmeti said that they won't do anything to protect macedonia.Someone might well say a fine mess we got ourselves in.THe diaspora vote was negated by mickey siding with grueski.I don't know the answer to your question.I wonder if the defense minister meant when he swore allegiance to macedonia did he or was he just lying.??