Macedonia and NATO

[julie]

OM, you have just stated what I have been saying. In RoM, they had to accept the Titoism. My father rebelled and emigrated , he could not stand the subservience from his family and questioned everything, landed a stint in prison for his efforts in bucking the "democratic" system, he is the one that has used the anaology of heads up Tito's arse. They accepted everything, or there were repercussions, he hated it, and fought for the minorities in Egej and their rights, he hated it with a passion, the slave mentality and the ready acceptance of the authoritarian rule and it was a regime.
I cant stand the ongoing slave mentality today in RoM and the apathy. They have their rights and freedom, yet they continue the subservient attitude, at a time they can all stand united and oust the governments who are traitorous to the continuation of our very existence.
He returned from 4 months away in RoM, a changed attitude. He was drip fed the bullshit of the importance of negotiating our identity for entry into the EU and acccepted it here. He now is vehemently against it, and says it will be the downfall of our people, our name and our identity, and our economy. He has no formal education behind him, yet he has incredible and wisdom and foresight, and says there is not enough to promote tourism in the most heavenly beautiful god given land on earth, nor enough to encourage foreign investment to boost the ailing economy, which will be further eroded on entry into the EU and NATO . He is vehemently against negotiations.

When you attack people that have been born in Egej, you are being hurtful. They have endured suffering and hardship under disgusting conditions and the world has let this happen. They dont want to see the one piece of slobodna Macedonia divided, and fight for that piece.

Prolet, the comparison RTG has made is a good one. You are talking about numbers, what has that got to do with how the people are reacting to their situation?
We have sloboda in RoM, and RTG is talking about the apathy of our people.

STOP NEGOTATIONS, get behind organisations like AMHRC who are working for the Macedonian cause. I dont want to be called anything but Macedonian, and It would kill me to see our identity lost. In the year 2010. Disgusting.
Wake up budala narod, stand up and fight for our rights, for our name, and our identity

[Frank]

We all are not stupid

Extend an invitation to Macedonia with no conditions

Only as Macedonians and the Republic of Macedonia

[julie]

Frank, this is how it has to be, and the only way for this to happen is for the governments to stop negotiations. Our flag has been compromised, and our identity will be too. I am scratching my head as to why Macedonia is going to court to enforce entry into EU and NATO under that acronym, can anyone enlighten me on their possible logic please? They are traitorous to our identity. They should be boycotting all talks in regard to negotiating our name. Period. Slobodna e Rom sega.

[julie]

"The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

My hero.

[Risto the Great]

Risto, Thailand is a country of 65 million people, you cant compare it with Macedonia in any shape or form.

I understand the numbers make a difference to the argument. However, Macedonians feel they deserve to be up there with the best of the Europeans yet few are prepared to suffer one bit for it. Instead they would prefer a quick and easy entry into the EU thinking it will solve all of their financial woes. I think I have demonstrated quite clearly why this is a myth.

Risto, Over 85% of the people voted for independence in the referendum, there were a few incidents where people wanted to stay with Yugoslavia but they were a small minority.

There have been more incidents of apathy and willingness to compromise the sovereignty of the country than any sign of demanding fundamental human rights.

The most common Macedonian form of protest is to not vote. They seem to think that doing nothing is the best way of getting your message across.

I know there are patriots in Macedonia. I would suggest they are very much in the minority.

I genuinely wonder how many Macedonians in RoMacedonia feel inferior to Serbs. I would then like to know how this translates to generations. I suspect the younger generation feels inferior to Western society (USA) and the older generations feels inferior to Serbs. If we can destroy the inferiority complex, we will have created pride. The rest is easy. And this is why the MTO exists.

[George S.]

Guys i allready started this thread seperately more than a week a go.I heard it on sbs radio.Everyone virtually poo pooid it & said it was done allready in the past.
I suppose it's worth a go as fyrom after all greece shouldn't be objecting to it.But it can still veto macedonia with the name of fyrom.

[makedonche]

To Julie and Makedonce

You both either have a severe comprehension problem in which case you need to go and learn English but I suspect the second option is true that you are both racist pricks who think you are high and mighty for being from egej. I have met my fair share like you…heard it all before…egej Macedonians are real Macedonians because those in RoM are the spawn of Serbs f ing our mothers over generation so we are half or three quarter or more Serb.

Don’t try and weasel out of it you flying fucks. Follow the sequence of the conversation and it proves it.

Firstly Julie herself introduced the the slander in her post038

Julie…This is from someone that has not lost relatives in battle for the name MACEDONIA.
You don’t have a lineage of ancestors that died for Macedonia.Post038.

How the f would you know if anyone of my lineage ever fought for Macedonia or not. Because they are not from egej. Because as you very clearly imply the egej fought the Greeks for Macedonia and what the f would any non egej know or truly care about the name after all according to you we have never shed blood for Macedonia.

I started by saying your statements brought me right back to my first day at a new primary school…we shifted…where the only other two Macedonians from RoM were bullies and after taunting pushing shoving tripping ect for most of the day at second recess thought they would jump me together and have some fun punching me up. Because I didn’t play my role as the victim ie cower and cop their beating they really got stuck in at which point I thought f it its time to crack sculls which I nearly did.

TAKE NOTE JULIE THEY WERE NOT FROM EGEJ but WERE FROM RoM I would not nor could not call them Greek. It would be just simply stupid to do so. Neither did I call the egej kids Greeks. They were in a different room to me and had only heard of me as the new kid is a maco and at lunch they came to introduce themselves and left just as fast when I told them which part of Macedonia I was from. There was no name calling or fight. They basically ignored me ever since. i think it was basically I wasn’t good enough.

Julie.post052.If you called the Macedonians Greek, then you deserved to get beaten as far as I am concerned. Calling us Greek, a fellow Macedonian, is actually quite disgusting.

Where do you get this stuff. There was no mention of calling anybody Greek. Do you just make stuff up. Do you just half read stuff and makeup the rest in your head and reply to the half and half story in your head.

Maybe it was too much information for you but I wanted to point out a counter to your stupid insinuation that egej Macedonians are somehow better or more Macedonian. Basically that day said if a Macedonian wants to be a prick to you it doesn’t matter which part of Macedonia they are from a prick is a prick.

Further to this theme of countering your argument I pointed out the historically factual error in your statement that only egej Macedonians fought and bled for Macedonia and concluded that good Macedonians from all over Macedonia fought for Macedonia and to say anything different disrespects their memory.

Smarty Makedonce jumps in with his absolutely stupid remark post044

Don't be disappointed, the Egejski Macedonians are the real Macedonians! But we haven't forgotten any others and we haven't signed our right to stand up for them, away - unlike some past and existing politicians in ROM - the Egejci still bleed for all Macedonians!

Is their anything ambiguous about this statement. And the TRUTH comes out. I have heard it all before.

Your arrogance and racism jumps off the page.

After reading such stupid nonsense about the egej being the real Macedonians and laughing I absolutely loved the next bit

But we haven't forgotten any others.

Thanks for not forgetting us not quite right or not true Macedonians hence my dig at the only proof we need comment being so we non egejs are not true Macedonians but since according to Makedonce genetics is nice but ONLY

being aligned with the Macedonian Cause is the only proof we need!

sounded a bit like the if you think your Greek then you are. I know what he meant but the preceding stupid statement made me laugh. Also hence my using Google translate to translate da te pluknam into Serbian which I know should have been the other way round to have the full effect of the joke but I wasn’t sure if it was exactly the same in Serbian.

Get real you racist pricks. Your comments were very clear with no ambiguity about what you think a true Macedonian is.

I don’t subscribe to your point of view. I think Macedonians are true Macedonians regardless of which part they come from. The only untrue Macedonians are the traitors like Crvenkovski.

OM
I haven't even read through more than 1 line of this but I can tell from the first few words you need a fuckin good bitch slap! Now pull your head in and try to start making sense! I'll reply in full in due course, but for fuck's sake calm down and start being a fair bit more rational - your'e talking to Macedonians here not Greeks!

[Bill77]

Everybody thinks its such a bad thing. Ok lets say it is. No debate. Anybody ever wonder why if its such a bad thing for Macedonia why is Greece fighting tooth and nail to prevent Macedonia entering as FYROM. Have they suddenly become our friends and want to save us from ourselves. Does anyone know.

Because it doesn't guarentee our extermination. They don't care about a name.

They don't want us to exist. If they had it their way, they would try to eliminate us totally so the truth don't come out ever again.

By ROM entering Nato and EU will make it harder for Greek wish's to come true. I am not endorsing entry to these clubs, just trying to explain the name issue is bullshit and its obvious.

[makedonche]

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To Julie and Makedonce

You both either have a severe comprehension problem in which case you need to go and learn English but I suspect the second option is true that you are both racist pricks who think you are high and mighty for being from egej. I have met my fair share like you…heard it all before…egej Macedonians are real Macedonians because those in RoM are the spawn of Serbs f ing our mothers over generation so we are half or three quarter or more Serb.
OM
Neither of us have comprehension defficiencies, and neither of us are racist's or pricks for that matter, we do however display that Egeji superiority! As for the ROM Macedonians being Serb - I don't believe so, they make have adopted some Serb influences/customs/language differences or behaviours but that does not make them any less Macedonian or any less liked by me or Julie!

Don’t try and weasel out of it you flying fucks. Follow the sequence of the conversation and it proves it.
This is the part that starts to show us the real OM, these comments are uncalled for and extreme in the least, what it does show is your insecurity and inferiority complex, please avoid using this type of reference to either myself, Julie or any other MTO member for that matter - it is truly unbecoming!

Firstly Julie herself introduced the the slander in her post038
Be very careful with your choice of terminology - "slander"- was a very poor choice in this instance!

Julie…This is from someone that has not lost relatives in battle for the name MACEDONIA.
You don’t have a lineage of ancestors that died for Macedonia.Post038.

How the f would you know if anyone of my lineage ever fought for Macedonia or not. Because they are not from egej. Because as you very clearly imply the egej fought the Greeks for Macedonia and what the f would any non egej know or truly care about the name after all according to you we have never shed blood for Macedonia.
Why don't you tell us about your lineage so that we don't misconstrue any further remarks?

I started by saying your statements brought me right back to my first day at a new primary school…we shifted…where the only other two Macedonians from RoM were bullies and after taunting pushing shoving tripping ect for most of the day at second recess thought they would jump me together and have some fun punching me up. Because I didn’t play my role as the victim ie cower and cop their beating they really got stuck in at which point I thought f it its time to crack sculls which I nearly did.
As I said previously I like reading your posts and find them interesting, but as the comments above show, you tend to go off track and use stories and analogies that either don't fit the thread or the attempted explanation of the thread or your point.

TAKE NOTE JULIE THEY WERE NOT FROM EGEJ but WERE FROM RoM I would not nor could not call them Greek. It would be just simply stupid to do so. Neither did I call the egej kids Greeks. They were in a different room to me and had only heard of me as the new kid is a maco and at lunch they came to introduce themselves and left just as fast when I told them which part of Macedonia I was from. There was no name calling or fight. They basically ignored me ever since. i think it was basically I wasn’t good enough.
This clearly shows me you still harbour ill feelings from those early formative years.

Julie.post052.If you called the Macedonians Greek, then you deserved to get beaten as far as I am concerned. Calling us Greek, a fellow Macedonian, is actually quite disgusting.

Where do you get this stuff. There was no mention of calling anybody Greek. Do you just make stuff up. Do you just half read stuff and makeup the rest in your head and reply to the half and half story in your head.
OM - if you go back to your post where you asked whether we need your comments posted in Greek, that may give you a clue where Julie got this from?

Maybe it was too much information for you but I wanted to point out a counter to your stupid insinuation that egej Macedonians are somehow better or more Macedonian. Basically that day said if a Macedonian wants to be a prick to you it doesn’t matter which part of Macedonia they are from a prick is a prick.
I will reiterate once again that the comments regarding Egeji were tongue in cheek, for example - Collingwood & Carlton are both AFL teams, it's like me telling you Collingwood are better than Carlton, do you understand this?

Further to this theme of countering your argument I pointed out the historically factual error in your statement that only egej Macedonians fought and bled for Macedonia and concluded that good Macedonians from all over Macedonia fought for Macedonia and to say anything different disrespects their memory.

Smarty Makedonce jumps in with his absolutely stupid remark post044

Don't be disappointed, the Egejski Macedonians are the real Macedonians! But we haven't forgotten any others and we haven't signed our right to stand up for them, away - unlike some past and existing politicians in ROM - the Egejci still bleed for all Macedonians!

What was stupid about these remarks?

Is their anything ambiguous about this statement. And the TRUTH comes out. I have heard it all before.

Your arrogance and racism jumps off the page.
Once again, piss poor choice of terminology, you really need to refrain from this racism garbage.

After reading such stupid nonsense about the egej being the real Macedonians and laughing I absolutely loved the next bit

But we haven't forgotten any others.

Thanks for not forgetting us not quite right or not true Macedonians hence my dig at the only proof we need comment being so we non egejs are not true Macedonians but since according to Makedonce genetics is nice but ONLY

being aligned with the Macedonian Cause is the only proof we need!
The answer is in the statement - "clue"- Macedonian Cause!

sounded a bit like the if you think your Greek then you are. I know what he meant but the preceding stupid statement made me laugh. Also hence my using Google translate to translate da te pluknam into Serbian which I know should have been the other way round to have the full effect of the joke but I wasn’t sure if it was exactly the same in Serbian.
Well there you go again, incorrect analogies, poor examples, and it certainly didn't look like an attempt at humour to me!

Get real you racist pricks. Your comments were very clear with no ambiguity about what you think a true Macedonian is.
Once again poor choice of terminology with no factual base to substantiate these inappropriate words!

I don’t subscribe to your point of view. I think Macedonians are true Macedonians regardless of which part they come from. The only untrue Macedonians are the traitors like Crvenkovski.

If you don't subscribe to the view that's fine - no need to get your knickers in a knot! "The only untrue Macedonians are the traitors like Crvenkovski" - does this make them any less Macedonian than you or I?

[Big Bad Sven]

Risto, Thailand is a country of 65 million people, you cant compare it with Macedonia in any shape or form.



Risto, Over 85% of the people voted for independence in the referendum, there were a few incidents where people wanted to stay with Yugoslavia but they were a small minority.

Yeah but it took the news of slovenia and and croatia being bombed by the JNA for the message to sink in that yugoslavia was dead...... the macedonian and bosnian politicians wanted to still be in a yugoslavia, in a "loose" federation with serbia, with croatia and slovenia out of the yugoslavia. But i guess when the bosnians learned that it was next to be bombed by serbia and when macedonia realised the serbs were making secret deals with the "grks" to carve up macedonia the dream of tito was finally dead.

In hindsight the slovens and croats were the smart ones, they were planning since the late 70's and through out the 80's to leave yugoslavia, making a exit strategy if you will.
I believe the macedonians thought the "good life" of Serboslavia would continue forever, how wrong and ignorant were they.

[Prolet]

I genuinely wonder how many Macedonians in RoMacedonia feel inferior to Serbs. I would then like to know how this translates to generations. I suspect the younger generation feels inferior to Western society (USA) and the older generations feels inferior to Serbs. If we can destroy the inferiority complex, we will have created pride. The rest is easy. And this is why the MTO exists.

Very True Risto

We might be a small country but we have alot of heart and passion, we must respect ourselves first before we can respect others. I have alot of hope that we can achieve this, pride and dignity is very important for us.

[Prolet]

BBS, Believe it or not we broke away from Yugoslavia one month before the Croatians did, their independence day was 9 days ago. In order to keep somebody quiet you need to keep them happy, give them a job,decent income,travel etc Keep in mind that we were much better situated then Bulgarians,Albanians,Polish,Eastern Europe they couldnt travel anywhere. Now we are living in reality and that we have to look after ourselves not rely on others to look after us, its difficult but at least we are a sovereign country.

Its going to take more years for us to settle in and rebuild our economy, but we are on the right track. There is still much more to be done dont get me wrong, but we have to be grateful too, it could have been alot worse.

[Big Bad Sven]

BBS, Believe it or not we broke away from Yugoslavia one month before the Croatians did, their independence day was 9 days ago. In order to keep somebody quiet you need to keep them happy, give them a job,decent income,travel etc Keep in mind that we were much better situated then Bulgarians,Albanians,Polish,Eastern Europe they couldnt travel anywhere. Now we are living in reality and that we have to look after ourselves not rely on others to look after us, its difficult but at least we are a sovereign country.

Its going to take more years for us to settle in and rebuild our economy, but we are on the right track. There is still much more to be done dont get me wrong, but we have to be grateful too, it could have been alot worse.

Apparently in June 1991 Slovenia and Croatia declared independence. Macedonia declared independence in January 1992. According to this timetable:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/yugotimeline1.html

"Slovenia and then Croatia were the first to break away, but only at the cost of renewed conflict with Serbia."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4997380.stm

Like i said Slovenia and Croatia were the first to leave Yugoslavia, then in 1992 Macedonia and then Bosnia left. Remember in the early days a lot of the commie macedonian and Bosnian politicians still wanted to stay in a lose federation with Serbia even though Slovenia and Croatia left Yugoslavia.

[Mikail]

I don't see Macedonia changing it's name. This conversation keeps going round in circles for years now and the name is still not changed.

We have got support from Slovenia, Croatia, Cechs, Slovaks, Turks, Poland.........

Recently a meeting was held with representative ministers from Balkan region. Greece did not attend. Macedonia was discussed and all agreed this "name issue" was dead. They all voted for Macedonia to be in EU and stated will formally vote that way.

Let's get pro-active folks. Stop being so pessimistic.

[George S.]

I agree with RTG that the macedonians are just there to run with the status quo.They suffer from an inferiority complex.They hope for an easy solution to membership with nato & eu.Under yugoslavia they just went along willingly & it's true didn't want the disintergration
to happen as they were quite happy to just plod along.