Macedonia and NATO

[fyrOM]

Here’s another article to this…how will it work out…makes for interesting times.

Greece to respect the agreed

http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/makedonija/632287/index.html

Skopje, October 12, 2010 (Reuters) - Partner relationship that we want to build with Greece should be based on a degree of confidence. Anyone who wants us to build good neighborly relations should be consistent with what was agreed, said today Deputy Prime Minister for European Affairs Vasko Naumovski.

- We have an example of our relations with Greece, the Interim Agreement of 1995, and in our opinion, her brutal violation by Greece. Hopefully in the future trust between the two sides will be built with concrete steps that we will establish a degree of confidence that will allow us to build good neighborly relations and to be sure what the future will not agree to be re- breached by them, Naumovski said, answering a reporter's question on the current implementation of standards for quality management in the operation and ISO 9001:2008 standards for environmental protection ISO 14001:2004 ..

Our experience, said Deputy Prime Minister show that to be sure that what you agree to be conducted, should be confirmed with concrete steps by all parties involved in that agreement.

- We believe that Greece should show its good will in fulfillment of international legal documents, said Naumovski.

[makedonche]

Here’s another article to this…how will it work out…makes for interesting times.

Greece to respect the agreed

http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/makedonija/632287/index.html

Skopje, October 12, 2010 (Reuters) - Partner relationship that we want to build with Greece should be based on a degree of confidence. Anyone who wants us to build good neighborly relations should be consistent with what was agreed, said today Deputy Prime Minister for European Affairs Vasko Naumovski.

- We have an example of our relations with Greece, the Interim Agreement of 1995, and in our opinion, her brutal violation by Greece. Hopefully in the future trust between the two sides will be built with concrete steps that we will establish a degree of confidence that will allow us to build good neighborly relations and to be sure what the future will not agree to be re- breached by them, Naumovski said, answering a reporter's question on the current implementation of standards for quality management in the operation and ISO 9001:2008 standards for environmental protection ISO 14001:2004 ..

Our experience, said Deputy Prime Minister show that to be sure that what you agree to be conducted, should be confirmed with concrete steps by all parties involved in that agreement.

- We believe that Greece should show its good will in fulfillment of international legal documents, said Naumovski.

OM
Thanks for the previous detailed reply - it confirms what I suspected.
As for the above quote, aren't we being a little naieve here - "good relations with Greece" "concrete steps" - how many more times do we need to get slapped in the face by these pricks before the realisation sets in that there will never be either good relations or any sort of trust with Greece, the very best we can ever hope for is a mutual mistrust and not have anything to do with them! "Beware Greeks Bearing Gifts" - I'm sure you know the meaning behind this - not only can't they be trusted but the gift they offer is probably stolen anyway!

[Vangelovski]

OziMak,

You've got so many false assumptions in your argument, I'm suprised you didn't conclude that the moon is made of green cheese.

[Bratot]

На барање на институтот Димитрија Чуповски, Институтот за политички истражувања спроведе анкета на јавното мислење во врска со повеќе актуелни политички прашања врз репрезентативен примерок од 1110 испитаници.

Резултатите од анкетата се :


1. Ако следната недела се одржи референдум за влез во НАТО како би гласале?

 За 81,4%
 Против 11,3%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 7,4%

Според етничката припадност:

Македонци:
 За 77,6%
 Против 13,4%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 9 %

Албанци:
 За 92,6%
 Против 5,2%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 2,2%

Други:
 За 81,6%
 Против 7,9 %
 Не знам/ немам одговор 10,5%




2. Ако следната недела се одржи референдум за влез во ЕУ како би гласале?

 За 81,5%
 Против 11,9%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 6,6%

Според етничката припадност:

Македонци:
 За 77,7%
 Против 14,3%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 8 %

Албанци:
 За 92,9% Против 5,2%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 1,9%

Други:
 За 81,6%
 Против 7,9%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 10,5%


3. Доколку сите парламентарни партии вклучувајќи ги СДСМ и ВМРО-ДПМНЕ поддржат одреден предлог за промена на името со цел земјава да стане членка на НАТО и ЕУ, дали вие таквиот предлог би го поддржале на референдум?

 Да 14,5%
 Не 72,7%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 12,8%

Според етничката припадност:

Македонци:
 Да 14,4%
 Не 73,6%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 12 %

Албанци:
 Да 25 %
 Не 50 %
 Не знам/ немам одговор 25 %

Други:
 Да 15 %
 Не 55 %
 Не знам/ немам одговор 30 %

http://alsat.mk/vesti/zemja/1397466.html

[makedonin]

Не 72,7% != (73,6% + 50 % + 55 %)/3

Тоа е охрабрувачки, ама како дојдеа до 72,7% не ми е јасно. Јас добивам како средна вредност од тие три табели само 59,5%. Мож бројо на етничките припадности ми фале, кој знае.

[Rogi]

Zosto gi delis so 3? Ne bile 33.333% Makedonci, 33.333% Albanci i 33.333% drugi za da gi delis ednakvo na 3.

Spored rezultatite od anketata, izgleda povekje od 80% od ispitanite bile Makedonci.

[makedonin]

spored rezultatite od anketata, izgleda povekje od 80% od ispitanite bile makedonci.

Делам ги со три, оти са три НЕ групи а у една анкета може и еднакво да се застапени групите иако не мора, и затоа предпостави средна вредност.
Ако са повеќе од 80% Македонци, тогајка мож и ке биде рачуно како шо е горе, а мош и не.

Затоа и беше додадел:

Мож бројо на етничките припадности ми фале, кој знае.

Сето тоа го ставам у питање оти и наште нолгу пати не се нолгу точни.

Мада и скоро 60% од фкупното населеније е поарно од помалку од 50%, и резултато би бил да не се мене името.

Едноставно сакам да бидам сигурен за бројките, а не да се мава со некој бројки, шо мож а можби и не се точни, а имам и други бројки видено и вариират од време на време.

[fyrOM]

Makedonce

OM
Thanks for the previous detailed reply - it confirms what I suspected.

I hope those thoughts you suspected were good ones.

I don’t think the government really believes we can truly be friends with the Greeks. Some in parliament and some individuals have said we really could in newspaper articles. I don’t think they are true Macedonians. I think its all an act by the government to pursue their agenda and once the name game is won they will keep up appearances as frenemies.


The Truth according to OziMak.
I have alluded to these things in the past but now that the government keeps pushing the IA publicly and I am getting tired of repeating myself in round about ways.


Vangelovski I wouldn’t be childish enough to think its green cheese when everyone knows it yellow cheese and the dark bits are the blue or green veined bacteria like some cheeses on earth.

On a serious note the news paper articles over a long enough time saying that the government is doing this or that are a fact. Even things which look like they don’t have to do with the name issue like modernising the army and police weapons or the passport issues and sending teams into the diaspora to help people get their citizenship status in order while holding people back from travelling without up-to-date documents are also a fact. The question remains WHY is the government doing all these thing.

One can look at factual events as being a completion in themselves and nothing more and sometimes this could be the case and so one needs to be careful not to hastily read too much into things but as the evidence keeps mounting one should also consider can there be some connection between all these events even if they initially don’t look like they are connected.

After looking at the current governments actions I could only conclude the one common theme of the name issue and how to get around it as being the common link to all these past news articles. I’m not saying it is all my bright idea. It is the government doing these things. I don’t have a bat phone to Gruevskis office. All I’ve done is recognise them early on to form my opinion of the current government and hence my many post s in a similar vein since joining the MTO.

The suspicions of the government and my apparent support of them has lead to some suspicions of myself by some members on this forum. As I’ve said numerous times in the past anyone with even a brief understanding of Macedonian history will know Macedonia has had her heroes but also the multitude of traitors which leads every Macedonian to be naturally suspicious of anything or anyone a bit different. Just being Macedonian is not enough to prove your bona fides as a True Macedonian. I understand this internal intuitive suspicion in Macedonians that’s why I have tried to explain things as clearly as possible so as to curb the suspicions of the government or others from going off at a tangent and inadvertently having possible negative reactions. A case in point the disappointment people felt with the passport issues and how it would inconvenience them. Although the inconvenience was true I tried to curb peoples disappointment by getting them to realise the government was doing it for a greater good ie our identity.

The MTO is not an official policy making body but one should Not be tempted to discount the MTO as a bunch of nobodies hiding behind their computer screens each trying to out do the other in showing off their superior intelligence which is nothing more than a figment in their delusions of grandeur.

I think the MTO is gaining in popularity because it has proven itself repeatedly that it does not tolerate racism or sexism and at all times tries to keep a rational view on all matters. By no means does this mean we are all the same with exactly the same views and like just about any organisation is made up of individuals of varying levels of education and stations in life but the rationalism demanded by the MTO is constant as is the belief that everyone has something to contribute. The history of common struggles has taught us that everyone no matter how little they may think they are they have something to contribute and the MTO has not ignored this while dealing with our common struggle namely the survival of our common Macedonian identity.

One criticism of some of the MTO members I think has SOME truth in it ie the its an Australian thing.

I think Australia having started her life so far from the rest of the world created a need by people to be self sufficient industrial inventive but above all a like it or not reliance on our fellow neighbour for help. Remember a round trip to the UK for parts and supplies meant a 6 months wait for those supplies. What were you supposed to do in the mean time. How were you supposed to survive.

Such a society cannot exist let alone prosper as it has if deception and rip-offs were a 50 times a day regular experience. I think this has lead to Australians in general seeing things more black and white or right and wrong and extremely against deceptive individuals. A case in point when I was over on holiday in RoM I met with a lot of people who in conversation spoke of the corruption about the place. Nothing new I hear you say doesn’t every country have corruption. Yes ever country does have corruption albeit some more than others but what struck me strange was how many of these people…most of them… telling stories of corruption did so with an air of dammed bastard towards the corrupt person the story related to but also a gleam in their eye which towards the end of the story turned into a kind of perverse admiration and even envy of the corrupt individual a kind of bamuja kolku itar bese da izmisli taka. The justification being if you had a one time opportunity to have a river of money flow by you would you settle for your low wage or would you dip your hand into that river realising who knows when such an opportunity like that would present itself again.

I’m sure as Australians you have watched the nightly news or read papers detailing massive scams somewhere overseas where thousands or even 10s of thousands have lost their life’s savings and maybe shook your head in disgust. How many times have you though far out I wish Id thought of that or dreamed if only I could have done that. Does this idea somehow instantly feel a bit foreign to you. Your big kids now you know bad thing happen its no surprise to you your not naive but how many of you have relished at such news. This is what I mean about the Australian thing. Other societies are more use or be used umpteen times a day. A different pattern of thinking develops. Its not only acceptable its cool. But sometimes lying cheating deceiving and pretending can be a good thing. Remember me saying this in a different thread. It all depends if the lying cheating and pretending is on your side. As Australians it triggers natural alarm bells in us and as Australians and Macedonians with our traitors those bells ring like church bells and we may have a reflex action. Those…mainly overseas… more accustomed to lying cheating and pretending just let it roll off like water off a ducks back. This difference I think is the root of some of the more lively discussions on the forum. I think it is also why the Aussies on the forum cannot actually believe this is the governments plan let alone believe in the plan. Its cool. Remember me saying there’s a place for everyone to contribute. The dynamics of the environment needs the neigh sayers to counterbalance other things.

[makedonche]

OM
The game that ROM politicians are playing is extremely dangerous, if you go to bed with a dog you are gauranteed to wake up with fleas! Another analogy is " you can't get a little bit pregnant", i.e. just negotiate until you are safe or get something in return. My belief is no negotiation on our identity, not for EU access or NATO access, not for any reason at all. You appear to suggest that it's the ROM govt. appearing to negotiate just until we get into NATO, then when we have protection, set borders, improved economic out look etc. and can start to argue for our identity to be re-instated after that. This is a fools paradise because once any concession/negotiation/discussion has commenced and been agreed to it becomes a matter of "We know you are a Whore - it's just the amount of money we are arguing about". Living proof of this is this 20 year name dispute which only exists because ROM has participated in it - for whatever reasons/excuses! Had the ROM not agreed, not discussed, not negotiated, not budged on the self determined name, we would be in a much better position, but because we dipped our feet in the water we showed that we could also be whores - not a real enviable position of integrity - we are where we are today. The best solution (not the only one) is to tell them all to fuck off, we are not negotiating, stick the EU up their arse, Nato can piss off as well and keep to ourselves, living and working within our means instead of prostituting our identity to be part of some racist and irreputable clubs. Tell me OM what would happen to Macedonia if we did this? My view - there would be much financial hardship and pain, loss of international political clout, less investment into the country and so on but our identity would be that which we chose and nobody could fuck with it or negotiate it or bribe us to alter it, and that is worth more than any investors/club memberships or whatever else they are using to make ROM bend over!

[fyrOM]

Tell me OM what would happen to Macedonia if we did this? My view - there would be much financial hardship and pain, loss of international political clout, less investment into the country and so on but our identity would be that which we chose and nobody could fuck with it or negotiate it or bribe us to alter it, and that is worth more than any investors/club memberships or whatever else they are using to make ROM bend over!

At last a sort of answer to my What next question. What you say are very likely the outcomes if we are not part of the eu or another alliance loose or otherwise. On our own alone thing will start grinding down as you have correctly identified. I’m not trying to be facetious about this. I’m trying to point out there is more to the question. Lets play this through.

Macedonia has told the eu nato and un to f off until they decide to accept the name Macedonia and no other.
We dance in the streets celebrating and maybe get drunk. The morning will come no matter what we do.
Then what.

As you have identified foreign companies from the eu back away from investing in Macedonia.
Eu subsidies for agriculture products stop. Prolet might be able to tell us how much this is.
Infrastructure grants also dry up. Macedonia already has infrastructure problems which hinder greater investment both internally but more importantly externally.
Other grants for various things stop eg such as the one that set up our internet.
Preference can be given to agro products from eu countries or higher tariffs imposed on Macedonian agro products making them less competitive or the Macedonian farmers have to settle for less. How much less when input cost such as diesel for tractors combines ect are set external of Macedonia before the Macedonian farmer say give up it costs more to produce then to sell it.
A blanket rule is impose all Macedonian products must have the labelled product of FYROM or will not be accepted for sale in Europe Macedonia’s main market. This extends to usa Canada Australia ect.
Do you FYROM your self or do you f your self.
Visa restrictions are imposed again.
Students and others find it harder to travel.
Less money to the government via taxes or grants or subsidies means less to spend o social projects.
The health reforms and upgrades are wound back
Low cost housing projects are shelved
Unemployment rises from current 30 percent to what…
People cant afford medicines and start to do without unless it is extremely urgent as the poor do in the usa.

Do I need to go on…can I think of everything…want to jump in and add to the list.

Crvenkovski starts making more noises.
The ethnic Albanians say they don’t want to cop the hardship for our stupid name
Backed by eg usa we have a take two on 2001 to split the country and have western Macedonia go to the Albanians and join the eu.
Some predavnicci who already have Bulgarian passports want to go abroad to live
Ect

Oh and by the way the Macedonians call themselves Macedonia but the rest of the world turns around and say f off back we will call you whatever we f ing feel like it Ok FYROM

I guess you could say we are better off…like I said in my previous post it depends how you define better.

And how many will be on this site saying yeah it great to be a patriot in the diaspora with your pockets full hows about coming to live in Macedonia and show us how much of a patriot you are.

Are we back to square one or do you know of a better scenario.
That’s why I kept asking And Then What

[fyrOM]

Hey BukTop I don’t have a doctorate in anything. Maybe I don’t know enough…want to jump in and shed some more light.

[Vangelovski]

OM,

How many times do we need to go around in the same circles? How about you try and digest some of the threads that have already dealt with your baseless assumptions and scaremongering?

[makedonche]

Tell me OM what would happen to Macedonia if we did this? My view - there would be much financial hardship and pain, loss of international political clout, less investment into the country and so on but our identity would be that which we chose and nobody could fuck with it or negotiate it or bribe us to alter it, and that is worth more than any investors/club memberships or whatever else they are using to make ROM bend over!

At last a sort of answer to my What next question. What you say are very likely the outcomes if we are not part of the eu or another alliance loose or otherwise. On our own alone thing will start grinding down as you have correctly identified. I’m not trying to be facetious about this. I’m trying to point out there is more to the question. Lets play this through.

Macedonia has told the eu nato and un to f off until they decide to accept the name Macedonia and no other.
We dance in the streets celebrating and maybe get drunk. The morning will come no matter what we do.
Then what.

As you have identified foreign companies from the eu back away from investing in Macedonia.
Eu subsidies for agriculture products stop. Prolet might be able to tell us how much this is.
Infrastructure grants also dry up. Macedonia already has infrastructure problems which hinder greater investment both internally but more importantly externally.
Other grants for various things stop eg such as the one that set up our internet.
Preference can be given to agro products from eu countries or higher tariffs imposed on Macedonian agro products making them less competitive or the Macedonian farmers have to settle for less. How much less when input cost such as diesel for tractors combines ect are set external of Macedonia before the Macedonian farmer say give up it costs more to produce then to sell it.
A blanket rule is impose all Macedonian products must have the labelled product of FYROM or will not be accepted for sale in Europe Macedonia’s main market. This extends to usa Canada Australia ect.
Do you FYROM your self or do you f your self.
Visa restrictions are imposed again.
Students and others find it harder to travel.
Less money to the government via taxes or grants or subsidies means less to spend o social projects.
The health reforms and upgrades are wound back
Low cost housing projects are shelved
Unemployment rises from current 30 percent to what…
People cant afford medicines and start to do without unless it is extremely urgent as the poor do in the usa.

Do I need to go on…can I think of everything…want to jump in and add to the list.

Crvenkovski starts making more noises.
The ethnic Albanians say they don’t want to cop the hardship for our stupid name
Backed by eg usa we have a take two on 2001 to split the country and have western Macedonia go to the Albanians and join the eu.
Some predavnicci who already have Bulgarian passports want to go abroad to live
Ect

Oh and by the way the Macedonians call themselves Macedonia but the rest of the world turns around and say f off back we will call you whatever we f ing feel like it Ok FYROM

I guess you could say we are better off…like I said in my previous post it depends how you define better.

And how many will be on this site saying yeah it great to be a patriot in the diaspora with your pockets full hows about coming to live in Macedonia and show us how much of a patriot you are.

Are we back to square one or do you know of a better scenario.
That’s why I kept asking And Then What

OM
...."And then What"
... we become self sufficient, self reliant, debt free, truly independent, self governing and most of all Republic of Macedonia!

[Lion of Macedon]

No one should sell there soul for their name especially the Macedonians! these institutions will crumble in a matter of years the way there going, so fuck the greeks and these pro american organisations! smrt ili sloboda!

[julie]

OM
...."And then What"
... we become self sufficient, self reliant, debt free, truly independent, self governing and most of all Republic of Macedonia!

Amen Makedonche!!!

OM, you are deluding yourself if you think macedonia's unemployment will decrease and the economy will increase in the affirmative with entrance into little yankee doodie dandy clubby eventuates.

This is from someone that has not lost relatives in battle for the name MACEDONIA.
Someone that will gladly sell their name to get in good with yankee doody dandy.
Your logic is unfounded, and methinks you are a tad pro Crvenkovski, a traiterous politicain.
I suppose you are alos one of those supporters of yankee doody dandy that is in the affirmative with allowing the shiptari to take over RoM

And how is it you see the EU and NATO as being Macedonias saviours? For fuck's sake OM am getting tired of reading your dribble from your pre pubescent spurts.

You dont have a lineage of ancestors that died for Macedonia. I am fucked if AI will be dictated to , yourself appealing to MTO as being supportive of your stupid pathetic rants on how wonderful and what great foresight the governments in RoM have
And you are SUPPORTING the interim accord with your dribble on lets be good Greece, uphold the IA because we are being good little sold out Macedonians
Economically Macedonia does not stand a chance, thed borders are open, there are no visas, we dont need the fucked up EU who are enforcing Geece debt on poor developing countries that are regretting entering the yankus dudus clubus.
INDIGEN and VANGELOVSKI, enlighten this person who is willing to sell our Macedonian name and identity for taken it up the arse like a good little spy.
SHUT UP OM you profess such incredible foresight and intelligence, you are either A/GREEK
B/ PAID RoM member of traiterous parliament