Macedonia and NATO

[julie]

how disgusting.

[Frank]

To the Geo-Political minds out there
I am stumped to the benefit of NATO membership just what are they

It isnt a neon Welcome sign to FI
It doesn't prove you are Politically stable
It would not stop Macedonia being forced to deal with another Albanian uprising the same way
It creates budget restrictions to Military expendture, with the NATO alliance already saying you dont need arms phurchases just stay small and shut up (The NATO Sec General said that last week)

It above all upsets the real NATO alliance, the American Bastards and that is good

[julie]

Macedonia has assisted NATO with providing resources and soldiers to both Iraq and Afghanistan, who are already there under NATO. They probably see it as an at of goodwill. NATO is basically US. The idiocy of this is, we have Macedonians who have died, and are not recognised as Macedonians when they do so , but are under that revolting acronym.

[Pelister]

If this is true then they are certified idiots.

What better way to put pressure on themselves and paint themselves into a corner.

What happens then? 'Everything' becomes contingent on 'finding a solution'.

I can't think of anything worse they could do right now, than this. If this is true, this is a massive blow for us.

UMD has been pushing for this all along. I think its becoming clear who the enemies of Macedonia are, and that they are step by step putting more and more pressure on themsleves to 'find a solution'. If you look at the current events, every step taken by the Macedonians is one where they are increasingly building up pressure on themselves to meet Greece demands.

[Vangelovski]

People,

Macedonia has already applied for NATO and EU membership years ago and this was done under the FYROM terminology.

This is not news, this is not a matter of 'if', this has already happened.

[Pelister]

People,

Macedonia has already applied for NATO and EU membership years ago and this was done under the FYROM terminology.

This is not news, this is not a matter of 'if', this has already happened.

You right Tom.

I am certain that the people in the Macedonian government (and UMD who support our admission to these clubs as FYROM) do not have any idea what the effects of the term FYROM have on our image in the international community.

The term FYROM is doing us ENORMOUS POLITICAL DAMAGE. AN ENTIRE LIBRARY OF NEWLY PUBLISHED WORKS HAS EMERGED OVER THE LAST FIFTEEN YEARS, WHERE INSTEAD OF 'MACEDONIA' THEY USE THE TERM 'FYROM'.

I have seen hundreds and hundreds of new titles, where the term FYROM is used instead of Macedonia, and has been used to suggest we have always been a 'suspect' people' with a 'suspect' identity and a suspect history.

Our admission to the E.U and NATO club under the term FYROM, WILL erode our identity, and erode the legitimacy of our State and erode our right to exist - month by month and year by year.

[George S.]

Julie is right in that a lot of people are giving their lives for freedom & to call yourself what you want.It's a sad endightment on nato they should directly give admission to macedonia under it's rightful name without extra conditions.Pelister &tom both right in that because of greece having it's fingers in the pie have been able to influence other countries to recognize only us as fyrom.When infact it should be under the rightful name of macedonia.

[Pelister]

The term FYROM is exacerbating the sense that our Macedonia identity is suspicious.

We've already seen an small library of books emerging where the term FYROM is being used instead of Macedonian.

The admission to NATO by this shameful acronym also sends the signal to the rest of the world that the Macedonians find it at some level acceptable.

[fyrOM]

Guys…me thinks thou protests too much.

Pelister…The admission to NATO by this shameful acronym also sends the signal to the rest of the world that the Macedonians find it at some level acceptable.

How does this make RoM any more or less accepting of the acronym FYROM than when you have all noted and commented in past threads about the government wearing…sometimes literally as a name tag on their suit eg Grujo visiting NY Stock Exchange…the acronym in various forums.

Was not part of the IA for Greece not to prevent RoM entering international bodies where Greece is a member under the acronym name.

Isn’t this exactly what the ICJ case all about…you bad Greeks for not letting us in as FYROM.

As to the benefits or otherwise of such actions have you not yourselves come to some conclusions and then also found articles to post with writers having similar conclusions ie it’s a temporary get in card and not a give up position.

DedoAleko...It was all over the news these days, that the government wants R.Macedonia to join nato and eu as FormerYugoslavRepublicOfMacedonia, but both eu and nato (united states) said NO.
Analyzing our governments latest statements (or maybe it’s just my imagination) it starts to smell like they plan to end the name talks.
But, as I mentioned it’s just my opinion.
Macedonians, don’t forget: UNITED-WE CAN!

Yes DedoAleko is absolutely right in his post. Yes it was old news but also yes it was recently renewed and yes RoM still wants to get in the EU and NATO under the acronym name…think about it how can you be suing someone to be allowed to do x then two feet out the court room say you don’t want to do x while you are still waiting on the courts ruling. Publicly restating it sends a clear message to the courts RoM wants a positive result . Is this now report coming to you as some kind of surprise. Its all part of the game plan and has been for a long time. Welcome to October 2010. It is one prong in a multi prong approach to getting in the EU and NATO and wining the name game…it starts to smell like they plan to end the name talks. Right said DedoAleko.

[makedonche]

OM
It just dawned on me from reading your post that starting legal action in ICJ entangles ROM further into the name negotiations and provides an excuse not to end the talks! Your thoughts?

[Vangelovski]

OM
It just dawned on me from reading your post that starting legal action in ICJ entangles ROM further into the name negotiations and provides an excuse not to end the talks! Your thoughts?

This is true and has been discussed in detail over the past two years. In the ICJ case, Macedonia is asking the court to ENFORCE the Interim Accord. The fact that Macedonia went to an international court to enforce its “rights” under this Accord only demonstrates that they accept it as a valid and legitimate agreement. I think the damage that this has caused goes way over the heads of the so-called “experts” that advise our vassal politicians and their lapdogs in Macedonia and the diaspora.

This idea that Macedonia has some sort of "grand strategy" (as proposed by OziMak and Buktop) is ludicrous. And if this is their "grand strategy", the Macedonian Government has miscalculated on such a huge scale, it could well be the most idiotic political stratagem in history.

[makedonche]

This is true and has been discussed in detail over the past two years. In the ICJ case, Macedonia is asking the court to ENFORCE the Interim Accord. The fact that Macedonia went to an international court to enforce its “rights” under this Accord only demonstrates that they accept it as a valid and legitimate agreement. I think the damage that this has caused goes way over the heads of the so-called “experts” that advice our vassal politicians and their lapdogs in Macedonia and the diaspora.

This idea that Macedonia has some sort of "grand strategy" (as proposed by OziMak and Buktop) is ludicrous. And if this is their "grand strategy", the Macedonian Government has miscalculated on such a huge scale, it could well be the most idiotic political stratagem in history.

Vangelovski
Exactly what I feared mate!

[Pelister]

This is true and has been discussed in detail over the past two years. In the ICJ case, Macedonia is asking the court to ENFORCE the Interim Accord. The fact that Macedonia went to an international court to enforce its “rights” under this Accord only demonstrates that they accept it as a valid and legitimate agreement. I think the damage that this has caused goes way over the heads of the so-called “experts” that advise our vassal politicians and their lapdogs in Macedonia and the diaspora.

This idea that Macedonia has some sort of "grand strategy" (as proposed by OziMak and Buktop) is ludicrous. And if this is their "grand strategy", the Macedonian Government has miscalculated on such a huge scale, it could well be the most idiotic political stratagem in history.

You are right Tom, and some of us are deeply concerned about the direction the Macedonian government have been taking in all of this.

Those idiots went to the ICJ in defence of admission to these organisation under the acronym FYROM.

What a moronic, miscaculated thing to do. Neither the Macedonians in the Republic, nor that group of 'diaspora' lunatics in Washington actual realise how much damaging they are doing to us.

[DedoAleko]

Today:

Грција вознемирена од предлогот – преговори, влез во ЕУ, па име
12.10.2010 - 13:04 |

* Македонија

Грчката Влада ја вознемири предлогот на Милошоски - преговори со Европската Унија под референцата БЈРМ, паралелни преговoри за името со Грција и прифаќање на заеднички договореното име дури по влезот во Унијата.

Преку “Катимерини”, владините извори од Атина го повикуват Скопје да престане со маневрите и да се фокусира на раговорите во Обединетите Нации.

Ставот на Грција е непроменет, решение за името морало да се изнајде пред почетокот на пристапните преговори.

Наспрема грчкиот став и порака, Македонија одговори со сопствено барање. Доследност во договореното повторно побара вицепремиерот Наумовски. Грција да покажела добра волја во почитувањето на меѓународните договори

- Партнерскиот однос што сакаме да го градиме со Република Грција треба да базира на голем степен на доверба. Имаме пример од нашите меѓусебни односи со Република Грција, со привремената Спогодба од 1995 година, и според нашето мислење, нејзиното брутално кршење од страна на Грција. Да градиме добрососедски односи и да бидеме сигурни дека се она што во иднина ќе се договориме нема повторно да биде прекршено од нивна страна - изјави вицепремиерот Васко Наумовски.

Почитување на Времената спогодба од 95-та од Грција и влез на Макеоднија во ЕУ и НАТО под референцата БЈРМ повторно побара и поранешниот медијатор за името Мартин О‘Нил.

izvor: http://sitel.com.mk/dnevnik/makedoni...z-vo-eu-pa-ime

[fyrOM]

Makedonce I am not for a name change and I don’t believe the current government is either. The IA and everything with it were inherited. Regardless if we don’t like it this is the current situation today and what remains is where to go from here. Other discussions of what Macedonia should have done and where she should be are important in themselves but not as important as realising Macedonia’s current position and what to do next.

Some time ago in a different thread I posed the question What next to which no real reply was give other than the usual rhetoric of vassal government and vassal statements from some in the diaspora but it was a real question albeit playing the side of the devils advocate. Many have said end the name talks. Then what. Is the ending of the name talks and consequently declaring the IA null and void leaving RoM in a better position and for how long. I guess it depends on how you define better.

In terms of for now ending any possibility of a name change one could think it is better ie no talks means nothing to change means no accidental change of name ad identity. What about the day after. What if this outward declaration of up yours triggers actions from other powers to move. I have tried to explain this point with other words in other threads and it has been meat with a mute response either out of I don’t like it or I don’t understand it. I don’t know which. Some have said stuff them all the eu nato the usa we ll just go it alone . For lack of being able to think of a better way to explain it I will say something which I know will sound too simple so don’t read too much into it. If someone with his buddies grabs you in the street and is threatening you to do something saying No triggers them to take action immediately say eg to beat you up but while you are saying yeah ok I’m working on it but it takes time the threat doesn’t disappear only time is bought to reposition yourself in a more favourable position to be able to better fend off the inevitable threat.

I think I know what the government is doing. Is it the best course of action given the dangers that are associated with their course of action is very questionable to say the least but at the same time I find asking myself is there any other viable alterative.

Some at the MTO have suggested abandoning the name talks and to going to the UN gather enough votes and win our recognition that way. This is in fact sort of what the government is trying to do. If you look at the number of countries that have recognised RoM and when they did you will realise we did not have the numbers in the past so how successful would this course of action have been at any previous time. But by not saying yes to a name change AND not abandoning the talks any decision gets to be deferred. In the mean time both the President and Prime Minister have been flying around the world speaking with as many countries as they can.

This deferring tactic is not something that can go on forever. One might say hasn’t it gone on for near 20 years so why cant it go on for another 20 years or more. Because it has a natural end which is not very far at all and I would expect things to heat up progressively as time goes by. In the past Macedonia could have decided to change her name but was not technically in a position to enter the eu even if she wanted to and likewise nor would she be wanted by the eu in her then state so no need for extreme pressure. Yet as the reforms have progressed both in terms of economics and legal environment Macedonia has become a suitable fit for the eu. The closer we get to this fit the greater the demands will be to come to a decision about the name. If you look at more recent news articles that praise Macedonia for the exemplarily way the reforms have been performed the more one should get concerned as it indicates the closer Macedonia is to the end date.

The most disappointing thig is having rightly or wrongly embarked on this deferring tactic previous governments have pissed up the time and resources available to them for their own personal gain to the tune of billions. Traitors. Crvekovskis is a prime example but one could also cite the Skopje airport debacle of the past to turn it into an international hub.

Macedonia does not have enough internal capital to modernise and expand herself. Maybe if left alone in due course she could make it but not in a rapid time. This is the first reason the government has actively been chasing foreign investment. The second is the you loose too principle. If large foreign companies invest heavily in Macedonia and their respective governments are not taking action to aid Macedonia then Macedonia fails and so do their heavy investments. Not to loose big these companies will do whatever they can in the background to put pressure o their own governments. Even TAVs and Turkish airlines is a take two on 10 years ago.

The government has
Rushed reforms and reduced taxes to make Macedonia an appealing environment for foreign investment
Made extensive trips abroad to encourage relationships with as many governments as they can
Strategically getting the pipeline to go through Macedonia
Reformed the rural sector which much of Macedonia is involved with to alleviate the pressure of the lower masses
Taken steps to rout out the traitors in high places ie lustration process
Significantly upgrade the schools ie university enrolments from low 60s to in the high 90s and medical sector ie new expensive machines and anti corruption actions against medical workers
Not only making people internally get their papers in order but both encouraging ie sending teams abroad and forcing ie people not being able to leave without getting their papers in order the diaspora where a ready anti name change base exists
Invested in archeologically digs
Upgraded the military and police hardware not just for the outward image for nato but a rapid action against a 2001 take two

All the above have not only been for the obvious economic gain but more importantly strategic moves to fend of any forced attack on the name. Think about the news reports saying may people feel worse off since the government took office yet the governments popularity keeps increasing. Crvenkovski cant understand it. Traitors have a natural hard time understanding patriotism when it costs you.

Going to the IJC to uphold the IA is the governments risky attempt to get in the eu and nato without having give up the name i.e. the old defer trick. In part its to diffuse internal pressure. The opposition has no carrot to dangle ie Macedonia is already where at least the public thinks they want to be so what have you got to offer bupkis and you Albanian ethnics were whinging about what again.

I think the government thinks the French resistance may have some philosophical reason but by and large its really financial and getting Macedonia’s buddy China to get them off the hook the French may sing a different tune. But also they think that by being on the other side of the fence with most of the eu members and 4 fifths of the security council on their side it will be easier to convince the stragglers to cross over leaving Greece and Cypress I the corner. Once there the government can work on the eu to follow through with their earlier threats to change the rules about unanimous votes. In the mean time keep getting the numbers for a un count eg any wonder why Fiji recognised us while probably not having a frig about Alexanders mob. Bing bang Macedonia is in as Macedonia in the eu and nato and checking out the vote count in the un.

Risky. Dammed right it is. You might recall in a different thread I said it looks too risky and I don’t like it. But then again when in Macedonia’s history has it not been risky.

In any event there needs to be a plan B to run and that’s why Crvenkovski and Co should never see power. Any wonder why he is calling for a riot instead of a peaceful protest. There’s more money for him and his lackeys to plunder.

The anti name negotiations campaign is important to keep showing the world that the vast majority of Macedonians do not want a name change. Obviously the small percentage of Macedonian citizens in polls who do are not ethic Macedonians. It makes it difficult for any power to manipulate any forced referendum that overnight all the Macedonians change their mind and still sound believable. It is a force to keep any force referendum at bay.

Rightly or wrongly this is where past governments have left the government to battle the current conditions.