Violence in the USA

[Carlin]

Christopher Columbus statues beheaded, toppled, burned, thrown in lake:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/7048340/christopher-columbus-statues-destroyed/amp/

[Risto the Great]

Reminds me of Weinstein's hotel rooms.

[Phoenix]

That's my thesis.

Your thesis statement therefor must have been the cock and balls 'doodle'...literally

[Vangelovski]

Is that your attempt at abstract art?

That's my thesis.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Is that your attempt at abstract art?

[Vangelovski]

Just to put this out there, the centre or centrism is not a political ideology. Its not a set of policies or principles, nor a philosophy or a coherent system of thought. Its a nonsense buzzword used by journalists who don't know what they're talking about yet its their job to speak anyway.

At best, centrism is a gut feeling. Its what people use to explain their incoherent and unconnected thought bubbles or vague and undefined 'policies' when they don't like what other ideological movements have to offer. Naturally, they think their own ideas are normal, reasonable and a perfect balance between the extremes - hence 'the centre'. Little do they know that their ideas fit somewhere within the ideological patchwork, they're not that great and they've already been thought of.

Political Science and Political Philosophy is not a pendulum swinging from the extreme right to the extreme left with everything else in between. Its actually a patchwork of ideologies and philosophies, some of which crossover and some of which never meet - much like the artwork I've attached below. The terms 'left' and 'right' are actually useless. Communism is not the opposite of Fascism. Conservatism isn't left of Fascism. Socialism isn't right of Communism. Its a bad way of thinking about political ideologies and political philosophy because it leads to grossly distorted views of these ideologies and their relative dangers and merits.

[Soldier of Macedon]

https://komonews.com/news/local/large-crowd-of-protesters-meet-inside-seattle-city-hall-during-12th-night-of-protests

A large group of protesters and Seattle Councilwoman Kshama Sawant met inside City Hall Tuesday night during the 12th consecutive night of protests in the wake of George Floyd's death. Councilmember Sawant and her staff allowed the protesters inside the building, which is typically locked up at night. She addressed the crowd and discussed the upcoming council discussions on chokeholds and chemical weapons, police budget and the "Amazon Tax." Many protesters called for Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan to resign as calls for defunding Seattle's police department have increased in urgency...…...Assistant Police Chief Deanna Nollette said no officers will respond to City Hall, unless they are needed in the area.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-area-protests-live-updates-for-tuesday-june-9/

Seattle protesters, stocked with tarps, blankets and tents, have started to camp out in their self-declared Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone — the area near the Police Department's East Precinct at 11th Avenue and Pine Street. The hope, many protesters have said, is to turn the building into a community center…….Some remaining demonstrators continued talking and organizing donations past midnight, though the area had mostly cleared out by 2 a.m., multiple livestreams showed. Lights at the nearby Cal Anderson Park stayed on, and police were nowhere to be seen.

Just for some perspective here. The Mayor is a Democrat, the Councilwoman is a far-left socialist whose political party supported Bernie Sanders in 2016. Another example of the left eating itself alive. The self-declared "Autonomous Zone" thing though, lol. Coming to a democratic city near you?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I think trump appeals to the fringes, hes created a cult like following that is unhealthy politically...…...What he created is not a conservative movement, he displaced the conservatives with fanatics.

Yes, you hate the orange man. I know. Trump is certainly not perfect, he has his share of mistakes and bad judgement. But for the third time, what needs re-centering? Is there a specific set of social or economic policies you can point to which are too far to the right and if so, why would you classify them as such? Who are the fanatics in his party that displaced the conservatives and which official positions do they hold in government?

I believe Biden is more centrist and will be a healthy counter as long as the fringe left of his party doesn't have the final say which they won't because if they did Bernie would be the candidate......Same can be and is said of the fringe left. Why didn't the communist win the primary if they are not the fringe?

If establishment Democrats continue to appease the fringes then the balance of power will shift even further away from the centre. There are already a number progressives and far-leftists in congress and some of them actively seek to unseat so-called centrists with their own candidates. Look no further than the current play being made by congresswoman AOC against Engel in NY. If that trend continues, Nancy may have to spend some time actually working as opposed to playing with her dentures. As for Biden, he won because the establishment Democrats circled the wagon and practically dragged him across the line. However, that communist you refer to had enough popular and party support to gain victories in California and other states. Not so fringe anymore. You don't see anybody from the fringe right doing that within the Republican party.

Biden just said yesterday he is not for "defunding the police".

Yes, I know. Good for him. Now let's see how that plays out during the elections given that the mayor and his Democratic colleague in Minneapolis was basically chased out of the streets by protesters for expressing the same thing. Meanwhile, Democratic congresswoman Omar has openly called for the dismantling of the Minneapolis Police Department.

In the USA local news media is heavily controlled by right leaning outlets. 4 or 5 corporations control almost all media and just about half are right leaning. Its a pretty even playing field.

Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, CBS and ABC are the largest cable news programs in the U.S., are they not? Only Fox leans to the right. An even playing field? You must be kidding. Most in the U.S. media are absolutely skewed towards the left. The same applies in Australia.

Spending billions on a wall that people were able to saw through in half a day is stupid and bad policy.

A wall alone isn't the answer. To be effective it needs to be monitored more frequently by border patrol. Just out of curiosity, would you rather there be no wall at all?

Make it harder for illegal immigrants to obtain work, fine companies severely who are caught hiring them.

Careful, statements like that may see you ostracised from your fellow constituents.

But who will Trump hire for pennies on the dollar to clean his Hotels and groom his golf courses?

It's not like he does the hiring for such jobs himself. The illegals used fake documents to obtain their jobs and as I understand it, many of them have been fired. I take no comfort in that. I agree that many of the illegals come for work and a better life and I am not necessarily against a pathway to citizenship for some that have been there for a while and have stayed out of trouble, but the fact is they lied to get in whereas others have been waiting for years following the legal process. It's a difficult predicament and I don't think anybody has the complete solution at this time. The system definitely needs to be fixed, not just in the U.S. but even more so in the countries from where such people are fleeing.

The Saudi government literally killed Kashoggi, they didn't fly planes into the towers.

They killed one of their own citizens. A regular practice for them. The only difference is that it happened in Turkey rather than their own country. The majority of the 9/11 attackers were Saudis who killed 3,000 American citizens and there is evidence to suggest that at least some KSA officials were complicit. Clearly, one of these events is much worse than the other. Clearly, Trump not supporting the pursuit of justice for Khashoggi isn't as bad as Obama not doing the same for the families of the 9/11 victims who just happen to be his own citizens.

So as I understand they made him do it?

Trump bombed Syria because he was pressured by the establishment. He needs to bear the responsibility for approving that action, even if the bombing was extremely limited. If Clinton was president she would've bombed Syria to oblivion and tried to ruin the country the same way she did Libya. So, you mentioning Trump bombing Syria is an anecdotal drop in the ocean compared to the destruction caused by Obama and Clinton in that region.

Fredo's brother took decisive action while the President urged the whole country to do nothing.

I could ask why he was acknowledging Trump for his support early in the piece or why there are so many nursing home deaths in New York right now while he and Fredo take adolescent jabs at each other on TV. But for the sake of brevity, how about you just tell me what decisive action he took while Trump urged the whole country to do nothing? Be specific with details and dates.

US intelligence had information back in January that China is covering up and that it will be a huge problem. Trump was busy chumming it up with his dictator buddy (his favorite type) quote "I trust Xi". He did nothing until it was far too late.....Then blabbed on about a drug that most experts knew was not useful.....These are all facts and I don't see how they don't culminate into a botched response?

Forget Russiagate, Trump must have deliberately done nothing and promoted the drug because he wanted over 100,000 Americans to die. You got him. Good job. Unfortunately, Karen Whitsett, a Michigan Democrat, credited hydroxychloroquine for her recovery from COVID-19. Apparently it works for some people. So Trump's plan to kill everyone wasn't efficient enough. Let's get serious. Do you think it's possible that any of the governors, who are responsible for managing emergencies in their respective states, bear a level of responsibility for the high number of fatalities? Or is the orange man a convenient scapegoat for all of the failures and whinging that happens in your country?

Ok what did they vote for in 2016 and are they voting for in 2020?

Already covered that on an earlier post. To repeat, acknowledgement of cultural and traditional values, border protection, limiting involvement in foreign disputes, a strong economy, jobs growth, low unemployment, holding China to account, etc. They will vote for the same reasons again. I suspect that law and order will also feature prominently.

The moral of the story is that he is so transparently fake and the only way you won't see it is if you don't want to.....What does holding up a bible say exactly, what was the point? Couldn't he talk about the church and why rioting and burning things is wrong? Identity politics much?

A bit of pandering perhaps, but there is no major story to be had aside from that which you want to create. In a country where its Christian heritage is often denigrated by the left and the media, there is something symbolic about watching the president holding the Bible in front a church during a time of crisis. It appeals to a large segment of the population. Just like Trump's conservative values can be questionable at times, so too can his Christian values, but if he is delivering on what the people want, then most will look past such perceived shortfalls. Except those who actively seek to be triggered.

Simple, he is not a conservative, does not understand conservatism, his followers are vastly not conservative, the majority of traditional conservatives are on the sidelines and many are some of his most fervent critics. Raging deficits, over reaching states rights, show of force using the army, pussy grabbing, not conservative. Moral conservatism went out the window from day one, religious, lets not kid ourselves, limited government, uses the bureaucracy to suit his needs, meddles in the justice department directly, has tried to do things that were deemed unconstitutional by conservative judges.

The exaggerations aside, you're referring to issues that are already known. Nuances exist in all politically-aligned groups, but if it was going to hurt conservatism in general it would've done it by now. And contrary to what you wrote above, most of his supporters are conservatives. Despite some reservations with respect to his conservative orthodoxy (or lack thereof), they still supported him. He never would've won the election without them. I think you need to turn off the establishment blinkers and realise that conservatives aren't just the republican officials who oppose Trump, although I can appreciate how this may be a difficult endeavour given that you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge the trajectory of your own party.

This is the exact opposite of abstract and just as useless.

Reality is just as useless as abstract when dealing with a potentially life and death situation? That is such a foolish and nonsensical thing to write. Such a statement only comes from ignorance and a lack of exposure to the risks faced by actual law enforcement officers.

The problem is police use that mentality too often to just bust in and start shooting. It happens regularly....How many cases just in the last year of "I thought he had a gun so I had to shoot". How many cases of "caught in the crossfire".

You make it sound like it's endemic. How regularly does it happen? It would be helpful if you can reference some statistics. In each case, have you determined all of the circumstances and how much time the officers had to assess and react? I suspect not.

No one doubts how hard of a job it is, but that doesn't give you free reign and no accountability...…..Treating everything and everyone as a threat is not what society wants or needs.

Most cops don't think that way.

Doctors get sued all the time when they make mistakes in their profession. What if doctors refused to treat infectious patients because obviously they pose a risk to doctors own safety.

Aside from confusing incompetence with risk mitigation, your first sentence is irrelevant to the second one. Doctors typically wear PPE and take precautions to ensure their own safety prior to treating infectious patients. In the process of assisting others, one must secure their own safety first. Just like you would be instructed to do with oxygen masks in an airplane. So, when you write things like this:

A cops job is not to protect himself, its to protect others, take it or leave it.

It indicates that you are either uninformed or delusional, because a cop's life is no less important than others.

Far from a leftist.

Further left than you care to admit.

But does it better serve society to just pack them in jails over and over without trying to solve poverty, drug abuse, and mental illness?

The criminal justice system is meant to deal with the effects. There are other government structures and social programs that should be dealing with root causes. If either requires change (which they most certainly do) then people should vote for politicians who can commit to that objective so that crime is reduced. Out of the top 20 cities with the highest violent crime rates by percentage in the U.S., all of them are run by Democratic mayors, aside from one all the way down at 19th place. What does that say about their efforts at solving poverty, drug abuse and mental illness, assuming these are some of the root causes for such crimes?

Does making petty offenses criminal get rid of crime? Its inefficient as hell and has produced the largest prison population in the world per capita.

Does making serious offences criminal get rid of the crime? Think about what you're saying. I don't believe people should be imprisoned for isolated cases of petty crime. However, if such people are repeatedly committing the same acts or have a history of other crimes then at some point harsher penalties are warranted and that may include prison.

When the communist Chinese imprison less people then you, then you need to seriously think about what you are doing and what is it accomplishing.

I agree, it's a terrible figure. But let's not presume to know the true number of people imprisoned or incarcerated by Chinese authorities. Despite having the highest population in the world and being the original location from where COVID-19 began, apparently there have only been about 4,600 virus-related deaths. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Its hard to do and still have equal treatment under the law. If you punish someone for X offense then you need to punish all offenders.

Unless there are mitigating factors. In my opinion, equal treatment under the law shouldn't necessarily result in equal punishment, similar to how equal opportunity shouldn't necessarily result in equality of outcome. Judging each case on its own merit may be harder and more cumbersome but it will be fairer. Ultimately, it may never be perfect, because in addition to the police and politicians, there are also morons in the judicial system.

The main ones are decriminalizing drug abuse. Outreach to kids at a very young ages to prevent them from turning to petty crime in the first place. Eliminating debtors jails. Prioritizing mental health which is hard to do when people can't afford health insurance. Even policing tactics would help especially with youth. I've seen first hand in poor neighborhoods how kids grow up being resentful towards the police, which eventually turns into some kind of petty run ins with the police which turns into short stints in jail, which turns into a life of crime.

Something which you didn't mention, and understandably so because it wasn't stipulated in my question, was the family structure. Many of the issues concerning the youth are directly related to either poor or negligent parenthood, where good values are not instilled in them from an early age. Most of it starts at the home and if children don't have positive familial role models in their lives then their chances of growing up to be law-abiding and respectful also diminish.

[Karposh]

You know most people just draw a cock and balls on their ballot and have their name ticked off to avoid the fine

Yep, that was my dad's preferred method of voting. I can still remember that self-satisfied smile on his face as he walked out of the polling booth like it was only yesterday.

Lazy bastards...when I was your age, I walked 300km through 4m deep snow without any shoes until my legs wore out to my neck just to get a piece of stale bread...

Maybe it wasn't quite 300km away but same here. The bread truck delivered bread to our village twice a week and, since our house was set away from the main village quite a distance away, by the time my sister and me got home to deliver the bread to our parents, half a loaf had already been generously given away to our poor, starving (but oddly very loyal) family dog.

[Gocka]

How has the pendulum of politics swung so far to the right during the Trump era that it needs re-centering?

I think trump appeals to the fringes, hes created a cult like following that is unhealthy politically. I believe Biden is more centrist and will be a healthy counter as long as the fringe left of his party doesn't have the final say which they won't because if they did Bernie would be the candidate. For all the crying about the fringe left the democratic party has consistently ended up being centrist while in power. The #1 complaint form liberals about Obama, the Clinton's, and Biden is that they are not liberal enough.

Do some people on the right play identity politics? Sure, they're called the far right. They're a fringe group who barely have a voice and are disavowed by most conservatives.

Same can be and is said of the fringe left. Why didn't the communist win the primary if they are not the fringe? Biden just said yesterday he is not for "defunding the police". If you watched only right wing media you wouldn't hear that narrative.

As for "liberal" media, you are aware that, aside from Fox News and some internet-based media, almost all other media outlets, mainstream or otherwise, are "liberal" by definition, right? I haven't suggested that "liberal" media are the sole problem, but they are one of the main problems.

In the USA local news media is heavily controlled by right leaning outlets. 4 or 5 corporations control almost all media and just about half are right leaning. Its a pretty even playing field.

Irrespective of the timeline, things go good, credit Obama. Things go bad, blame Trump. Meanwhile, Trump's economic policies resulted in record low unemployment for minorities and record high DJIA. Go figure

Obama doesn't get full credit either. Economics are so much more complicated than tax cuts and bailouts. You can get the ball rolling 20 years in advance and have the ball roll over you 20 years later. Economies don't make 180 turns in 3 years or even 8. Was Obama to blame for the recession that started in 07? The right wing media certainly thought so. Every single thing you can point out about the way Trump is treated by opposing media can be said about Obama and his opposing media. Companies were hiring in record number before Trump was elected let alone before any policy changes. Its just a narrative out of a hat and every president tries to claim all victories and disown all loses.

Do you have a less stupid idea or are you for open borders?

Spending billions on a wall that people were able to saw through in half a day is stupid and bad policy. Not wasting tax payer money is a tenet of conservative ideology. He came up with the slogan and now we should spend billions so he can brag about it when in practice it does next to nothing. The vast majority of illegal immigration comes at legal points of entry, talk to our local Macedonian community to figure that one out. Yes I do have a better idea but Trump won't like it. Make it harder for illegal immigrants to obtain work, fine companies severely who are caught hiring them. They come for work, no work means they have no reason to come. But who will Trump hire for pennies on the dollar to clean his Hotels and groom his golf courses? Hypocrite in chief he is. The illegal immigrant "problem" was never and will never be addressed because no one wants to admit that many industries take advantage of that cheap labor. Farming, construction, and hospitality all hire them in droves and always have. There is this unspoken pact that America actually wants all those immigrants and if it didn't a wall is certainly not the most cost effective way to solve that.

And are you suggesting that thousands died because of Trump's supposed inaction as opposed to the effects of the hurricane itself?

Yes actually. Almost all of the deaths were post hurricane, from lack of food, water, electricity, and health care. The hurricane itself killed a hand full of people. He didn't send adequate aid on purpose or through incompetence and thousands died. He can send the army to scare protesters but he couldn't do it when it was needed?

I agree that the murder of Khashoggi was horrible, but both republicans and democrats have turned a blind eye to Saudi activities in the past.

That doesn't make his inaction right.

A little more closer to home, surely you haven't forgotten how Obama vetoed the bill to allow the families on 9/11 victims to sue the Saudis? Is the life of a Saudi journalist more worthy of concern than 3,000 of your fellow citizens?

The Saudi government literally killed Kashoggi, they didn't fly planes into the towers. To this day their official involvement is unclear at best. But despite that I think he should have let it pass. I think the Saudis are barbarians and the world has turned a blind eye because they have $$$

As for Syria, let's not throw stones in glass houses, because Obama, Clinton and co. are responsible for the debacle that is Syria. Trump wanted to scale back the U.S. military presence, but the establishment Democrats (and republicans) and leftist media were begging him to bomb away.

So as I understand they made him do it? I have to judge everything Trump does based on what others have done? That sounds like a bias to me. Trump doesn't get to bomb Syria because of something Clinton did 25 years ago or even Obama 8 years ago. He made that choice he should own it.

What should he have done differently? Do Fredo's brother and De Blasio bear any responsibility? When Pelosi and others were encouraging people to go out and mingle, was that irresponsible? When Trump called for a travel ban from China in response to the virus and was labelled a racist by Democrats, were they irresponsible? As for being the worst outbreak in the world, you should check the statistics based on population and percentage.

Fredo's brother took decisive action while the President urged the whole country to do nothing. 5th worst is close enough, and we should circle back because the other 4 are in Europe but have also gotten it under control. The USA very well may be 1st in due time. Considering the size and resources 5th is still unacceptable. US intelligence had information back in January that China is covering up and that it will be a huge problem. Trump was busy chumming it up with his dictator buddy (his favorite type) quote "I trust Xi". He did nothing until it was far too late. He called the Virus a democrat hoax for a month signaling to his supporters to not take it seriously. Then blabbed on about a drug that most experts knew was not useful. These are all facts and I don't see how they don't culminate into a botched response?

what they're voting for.

Ok what did they vote for in 2016 and are they voting for in 2020?

Trump isn't a devout Christian. But holding up the Bible in front of a church that was targeted by rioters is appropriate. Perhaps your future progressive president can hold up a Quran, the Communist Manifesto and the Green New Deal just to ensure your appetite for inclusion is satisfied.

The moral of the story is that he is so transparently fake and the only way you won't see it is if you don't want to. One of the main criticisms of other politicians is they are fake and believe in the things they talk about. I don't see what Qurans or Communists have to do with anything. Its about people not admitting it when they know he is faking it. What does holding up a bible say exactly, what was the point? Couldn't he talk about the church and why rioting and burning things is wrong? Identity politics much?

Big statement. Lacking substance. How will it end up hurting conservatism?

Simple, he is not a conservative, does not understand conservatism, his followers are vastly not conservative, the majority of traditional conservatives are on the sidelines and many are some of his most fervent critics. Raging deficits, over reaching states rights, show of force using the army, pussy grabbing, not conservative. Moral conservatism went out the window from day one, religious, lets not kid ourselves, limited government, uses the bureaucracy to suit his needs, meddles in the justice department directly, has tried to do things that were deemed unconstitutional by conservative judges.

What he created is not a conservative movement, he displaced the conservatives with fanatics. It will all come home to roost in the coming years. Same goes for the democrats if they give in to their fringe.

You're a sensible cop who responds to an active shooter situation at a property, but you haven't yet been able to ascertain the specifics of the threat prior to entry. You approach the breach point cautiously. In such a tense moment of heightened alertness, your thoughts momentarily fall back to your wife at home who just gave birth to a son a few weeks ago. Suddenly you realise your life is at serious risk. For the promise of a 60K a year salary, one thing goes wrong and your family never sees you alive again. Your wife a widow, your son an orphan. Without negating the fact that there may be some innocent people at the property and that preservation of life is paramount, whose life is the #1 priority? The problem with you leftists is that too often you think in abstract terms rather than being grounded in reality. Are there cops who are maggots that deserve to be removed from the force? Absolutely.

This is the exact opposite of abstract and just as useless. The problem is police use that mentality too often to just bust in and start shooting. It happens regularly. This is what I mean about changing the model of policing. Your mind set and how you approach that threat means everything. If all you have in your head is neutralize the threat by any means then you make all sorts of bad choices in tense moments and often in not tense moments. How many cases just in the last year of "I thought he had a gun so I had to shoot". How many cases of "caught in the crossfire". I am not just talking about the very small percentage of cops who would strangle a man to death. There is a serious problem in this country about how police react to various situations. In my opinion that has nothing to do with right or left politics, unless you want it to. No one doubts how hard of a job it is, but that doesn't give you free reign and no accountability. A cops job is not to protect himself, its to protect others, take it or leave it. Doctors get sued all the time when they make mistakes in their profession. What if doctors refused to treat infectious patients because obviously they pose a risk to doctors own safety. Many professions come with various risks you take it or leave and you take responsibility in all the rest, cops are no different. If you don't like the idea of potential threats do something else. Treating everything and everyone as a threat is not what society wants or needs.

But don't generalise [/quote One second earlier

The problem with you leftists

Far from a leftist.

instead, protest and do what needs to be done to get rid of those people. Is it right to protest with signs that say "ACAB" (All Cops Are Bastards), "Fuck The Police", "Only Good Cops Are Dead Cops", etc.?Well, those that harbour such sentiments can ponder that, should they ever be unfortunate enough to be an innocent victim of a violent crime.

No its wrong. Fringe. Most are fine people, many have bad training, some have no business wearing a badge. It blew up because it was ignored for so long. Eric Garner died the same way for selling loose cigarettes. Nothing changed.

[quote[Do poor people, junkies and mentally-ill individuals commit crimes? Should they be treated differently by the criminal justice system if they do?

Yes they do. No they shouldn't. But does it better serve society to just pack them in jails over and over without trying to solve poverty, drug abuse, and mental illness? Does making petty offenses criminal get rid of crime? Its inefficient as hell and has produced the largest prison population in the world per capita. When the communist Chinese imprison less people then you, then you need to seriously think about what you are doing and what is it accomplishing. Like policing the model needs to be improved. Many countries around the world have tried different things with success. Phoenix above talked about improving the individual to improve society. You will never improve the individual with that system. Obviously serious crimes can only be handled one way, but people go to jail for so little and often its the poor who get stuck in this loop. Mentality ill people should get mental health treatment before they go and do something horrible.

I think each case should be judged on its own merit, determining factors and circumstances. But I would be interested to obtain a greater insight into your thoughts about criminal justice reform and how it can cease being a revolving door.

Its hard to do and still have equal treatment under the law. If you punish someone for X offense then you need to punish all offenders. The main ones are decriminalizing drug abuse. Outreach to kids at a very young ages to prevent them from turning to petty crime in the first place. Eliminating debtors jails. Prioritizing mental health which is hard to do when people can't afford health insurance. Even policing tactics would help especially with youth. I've seen first hand in poor neighborhoods how kids grow up being resentful towards the police, which eventually turns into some kind of petty run ins with the police which turns into short stints in jail, which turns into a life of crime. I'm not saying its easy, but throwing your hands up and pretending like we have it all figure out is clearly not working. Don't even get me started on the private prison industry and how much money there is in it.

[Phoenix]

Lazy bastards...when I was your age, I walked 300km through 4m deep snow without any shoes until my legs wore out to my neck just to get a piece of stale bread...

#lazylivesmatter...you know

[Vangelovski]

...couldn't be fucked driving there and queuing up just to draw a cock and balls...you tight arse...lol

Lazy bastards...when I was your age, I walked 300km through 4m deep snow without any shoes until my legs wore out to my neck just to get a piece of stale bread...

[Phoenix]

You know most people just draw a cock and balls on their ballot and have their name ticked off to avoid the fine

...couldn't be fucked driving there and queuing up just to draw a cock and balls...you tight arse...lol

[Vangelovski]

refusing to vote means getting fined ($)...I would wear that cost (and I have previously)

You know most people just draw a cock and balls on their ballot and have their name ticked off to avoid the fine

[Gocka]

Wow...

In a democracy you also have the choice not to vote at all.
In Australia, unlike the USA and in many other democracies around the world we have compulsory voting, refusing to vote means getting fined ($)...I would wear that cost (and I have previously) if I thought no candidate met my expectations, I would never take the "lesser of two evils" approach to legitimising a political party or ideology that I didn't believe in.

That is true, in the USA we could chose to not vote. That is a choice and anyone can make that stand if they choose. I don't think it accomplishes anything when you have 2 candidates and one WILL win. In this case if you really don't want one of them to win then you need to vote for the other. Perfect example in Macedonia, if you don't want SDS to win this time, you need to vote for DPMNE knowing full well they are an evil and hopefully a lesser one. You could not vote because you don't like either in which case SDS wins again and you are where you started.

Sounds awfully close to the same rationale used to vote-in SDSM...and how did that work out ?...
In fact you did say here that maybe SDSM deserved a chance way back...

I don't recall saying SDS deserves a chance, rather that knowing full well who they are that their overt anti Macedonian stance would spur Macedonians to action more than DPMNE's covert anti Macedonian stance. It was an idea, and clearly it hasn't worked out that way yet. We all have to take responsibility for our choices, and you won't always be right, you should still make a choice. Besides we assume DPMNE wouldn't have done the same exact thing and that we wouldn't be exactly where we are had they stayed in power. So if Biden turn out to be worse than Trump in some other way, then I would still want him voted out maybe even for a Republic candidate. The idea is not that crazy given many prominent conservatives have said they will vote for Biden because they think he will be a better president than Trump despite differences on policy.

If you can't see how the Left operates after countless examples and history from all over the world

I think that's too general, left or right I think those are just labels and its hard to pin down policies to either label with purity. I don't vote based on left or right. I don't think Biden is a leftist, I think he is a left leaning centrist and I think that will be proved if he wins. How much political capital will he have to stand up to the more fringe elements of his party we will find out. I will take that gamble.

The most basic and succinct description that I have ever read of the differences between the Right and the Left is thus:

The Right tries to change/improve the individual in order to improve society.
The Left tries to make wholesale changes to society in order to change/improve the individual.
It's an interesting perspective when viewed from the prism that is Macedonia today...or where the USA will possibly be tomorrow...

It is interesting and there may be some merit. I think a combination of both is needed. Seeds grow in the right climate and with proper care. Its not so simple as make the individual better, go try that on Macedonians and tell me how far you get. I think one without the other still gets you nowhere.

Putting aside any allegations of Trump Derangement Syndrome against you for the time being...good luck with the 'defund the police' movement and other woke enlightenment gems...

As I said before I think the terminology is bad and it implies something different then I think people are asking for. I doubt the majority of people are asking for no police or even police with no resources. It comes down to what is policing, what do they need, and what do their communities need. After the Iraq war there was so much military surplus and police stations around the country got in the habit of buying very expensive and very inappropriate equipment. Budgets ballooned and with that militarized stockpile came a militarized stance. If you want to make the individual better then maybe such a harsh and combative stance is the wrong approach. Everyone wants to reduce real world problems to slogans, build the wall anyone? Then they take those slogans at face value. If build the wall really means curtail illegal immigration, then refund the police can mean fix the deficiencies in policing models.