International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[La Bira]

(by unknown, quoted by Brian)
The ICJ did speak about the airport and statues as it was high on Greece's attorneys agenda at the Hague. In both cases the ICJ ruled naming airports, or statues, or museums in no way breached the Interim Agreement, adding Macedonia has authority over its land and can do or name things in any way it desires. It was an internal matter, the ICJ ruled.

Nope, this isn't what the Court said. It said that since Athens didn't specifically object on the renaming of the airport (based on the provisions of the Interim Accord) they can't just use the argument in a generic way now. It also mentions that Athens DID make ONE official protest in one occasion in 2004 (it's about the use of a symbol, probably the Vergina Star, but I can't remember the exact case) and Skopje DID respond accordingly and discontinued the use of the symbol.

The court reminds what the IA says:
“If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.”
and (I guess) suggests both Parties should clearly state it when they have a problem. That may explain a lot about the Warrior on Horse.

[George S.]

la bira how can one country interfere in the affairs of another.It's nonsensical.The same as the naming of fyrom & the flag.How can one country dictate to another what it wants.
The moral of the story is both countries are soveregn.What greece is asking is impossible & also it's stupid in the extreme.
When one looks at the evidence greece has no right to anything it'as a thief & a liar.

[The LION will ROAR]

The ICJ Decision by Jason Miko
14.12.2011

A Facebook friend asked me a question the other day. He asked “Do you believe in a just outcome over the Macedonian question?” He asked this after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) decision for Macedonia and against Greece. I’ll answer his question in a moment.

As we all know now, on December 5, 2011 the ICJ at The Hague handed down a decision in a case Macedonia filed against Greece in 2008. At stake was the claim by Macedonia that Greece violated the 1995 Interim Accord signed by the two countries. Specifically, Macedonia claimed that Greece violated the Accord by vetoing Macedonia’s NATO application at the 2008 NATO Summit in Bucharest. By a decision of 15-1 (the one being Greek judge Emmanuel Roucounas who should have recused himself), the court found that Greece did indeed, violate the Accord.

Back on October 27, NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen gave remarks at the NATO Review Conference in Berlin titled “Principles and Power.” In his speech, he touched on NATO’s shared principles of “freedom, democracy, human rights, and the rule of law.” He spoke about NATO’s use of soft power and military power. And he spoke about NATO’s intervention in Kosovo in 1999 “on the basis of a clear moral principle.” From this we might deduce that NATO’s leaders do have the tiniest sense of right and wrong, good and evil.

If that is the case, many Macedonians – and not too few non-Macedonians – are left wondering: where is the sense of moral outrage over Greece’s holding hostage of Macedonia’s citizens? Macedonians – who overwhelmingly support Macedonia’s membership in NATO and the EU (though the latter is understandably slipping), desire membership in NATO for the very reasons that citizens of NATO member countries do – namely, as Rasmussen spoke about, the shared principles of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law. But Greece’s churlish position and continual refusal to recognize Macedonia’s name and identity and its refusal to allow Macedonia membership into these organizations, even under the provisional and temporary reference, is a dangerous game.

After the verdict was read, many Macedonians, non-Macedonians and even the media pronounced the decision a “moral victory.” But is it? In the first place, the Court declined to offer a remedy for Macedonia, per Macedonia’s request. Macedonia had requested of the Court that it order Greece to refrain from future conduct that violates its obligations under the Interim Accord. In other words, Macedonia asked the Court to tell Greece that it could no longer object to Macedonia’s membership in international organizations such as NATO or the EU if it applied under the temporary and provisional reference. But the Court declined stating “…there is no reason to suppose that a State whose conduct has been declared wrongful by the Court will repeat that act or conduct in the future, since its good faith must be presumed.”

Presumed good faith? The Greek Foreign Ministry issued an announcement immediately after stating “we recall that its (NATO’s) decisions, including those taken at the Summit in Bucharest (2008), Strasbourg (2009) and Lisbon (2010), were taken unanimously, reflecting its members shared conviction that the name issue of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia be resolved before it is invited to join the Alliance.” In plain English: Greece will continue to block Macedonia’s NATO application.

Even Rasmussen essentially gave support to the Greeks by issuing a statement in which he said “The ruling does not affect the decision taken by NATO Allies at the Bucharest summit in 2008. We agreed that an invitation will be extended to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia as soon as a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue has been reached. This decision was reiterated at subsequent summit and ministerial meetings.” On top of that the EU – for the third time in a row – declined to give Macedonia a date to begin accession talks because of Greece.

Back to answer my friend’s question and here is what I wrote:

“Justice is not always served...at least in this life. But you, Macedonia, must keep pursuing internal reforms and the rule of law while you work to attract foreign direct investment, tourists, and encourage domestic investment even as you build your Republic with a capitalist economic system. Hold your head high: you have lots of friends around the world helping you and willing to help you and remember – most of the world (the thinking world) simply calls you ‘Macedonia’ and ‘Macedonians.’ The credibility of the EU and NATO is bankrupt and their leaders know it. They know they are wrong even if they won’t admit it and they will go to sleep tonight knowing they are wrong. Keep praying and working for justice - I will do the same and I will always support Macedonia, my friends the Macedonians and your history, language, culture, Church and way of life. God bless you.”

In the end Macedonia will continue to be blocked by Greece on NATO and EU membership. In the case of NATO, this will be until NATO leaders grow some real moral backbone. And if the organization cannot see the moral issue at stake and take a stand, then it is time for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to stop navel gazing and engage in a heavy dose of soul searching.

http://www.jasonmiko.com/the-columns-dnevnik-24.shtml

[George S.]

I agree with you LWR.I would like to add how much does it take to tell the macedonian govt that greece cannot be trusted.Do people think they will abide by rules or what the icj tells them they should do no.They will lie & cheat & do anything in their power to stop macedonia in it's tracks to eu or nato.
Our macedonian govt is too silly for words.I agree with georgi ivanov macedonian president.We are the real macedonias the greeks are a manufactured greeks who want to pretend they are macedonians..We should mot do anything just to please greece.The name issue is a classic example.

[La Bira]

la bira how can one country interfere in the affairs of another.It's nonsensical.The same as the naming of fyrom & the flag.How can one country dictate to another what it wants.

In our case, Greece has done it with embargo and non-recognition.

[Risto the Great]

President Ivanov: ICJ judgment confirms credibility of Macedonia's foreign policy

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/170993.html

The Republic of Macedonia won a great diplomatic and legal victory in The Hague. А victory that confirms the credibility of our foreign policy, our conduct in the international community, said President Gjorge Ivanov in his annual Parliament address on Thursday.

He said the International Court of Justice has given its answer, which is the most authoritative proof of Macedonia's policy.

"To be clear and precise, we did not want to initiate this process. If there had not been a veto in Bucharest everything would have been different. But we were forced on that; we were faced with injustice, with a violation of the contractual obligation by Greece which resulted in real consequences borne by the Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, the lawsuit was inevitable", stressed Ivanov.

According to him, the judgment was the strongest possible legal argument that existed in today's development of the international legal order.

"Therefore, obligation and responsibility of the international community is to make the necessary efforts to move the status quo situation regarding the integration of the Republic of Macedonia", added Ivanov.

The President said will and responsible behavior was needed, whereas observing the judgment, the Interim Accord, the international law was the framework that would contribute to a more favorable climate in the relations between the two neighboring countries.

"We have an ideal opportunity for a historic step forward. The Hague ruling, except legitimizing our current policy, increases our reputation and has yet another great and important dimension: it is a framework which regulates the issues of extreme importance for the conduct of both parties in terms of respecting the obligations under the Interim Accord. The ruling confirmed that the Republic of Macedonia may use its constitutional name within international organizations in which Greece is a member. Greece's allegations regarding the breach of the Interim Accord by the Republic of Macedonia were rejected by the Court. Therefore, we need not seek new ways to reach a solution. We only have to respect the Interim Accord and adhere to the framework set forth in the UN resolutions, nothing more than that. We stand ready for that", said Ivanov.

In his address, the President also referred to the European Union integration process.

"In three consecutive years we receive a recommendation to start negotiations with the European Union, which is a great confirmation of the reform processes. The Report of the European Commission is a roadmap where to focus our attention in the reforms. It is not our fault that we have not yet launched the negotiations", said Ivanov.

I believe, he stressed, that on the next European Council, the next NATO Summit, if leadership, courage and vision is shown, the status quo situation in the integration can be moved forward.

"All will be winners, and the greatest winner will certainly be we and our neighbor. We will continue to reform our society with even greater motivation. Our goal is to be friendly and European neighbors with Greece. It is a rewarding goal for us, for Greece and for the European Union", he added.

According to Ivanov, there was a historic opportunity for a brand new start.

"I want to believe that this opportunity, together with our neighbor and the EU and NATO partners will be seized. Next year, from this stage, in this same period, I wish to confirm that my expectations were justified", said the President.

Ivanov said he was fully committed over the past year to the highest strategic goals of the country - membership in NATO and the European Union and shift of the status quo situation, further development of bilateral relations with all countries in the world, in accordance with the principle of openness to all, further strengthening of good neighborly relations with the immediate neighborhood countries and with the countries from the wider region, as well as being proactive in the regional cooperation and providing initiatives.

"In this regard, I did not spare myself nor will I spare myself in the future. I will continue to acknowledge the world with the truth and the arguments about Macedonia. I will continue to foster and strengthen the existing and will establish new friendships and partnerships", he emphasized.

President Ivanov attended 38 international events and activities, realized 23 official and working visits to foreign countries.

"I have represented our country in almost all major regional and global multilateral events dedicated to economy, energy, peace, disaster risk reduction, culture, sports ... I have hosted 9 official and working visits of my colleagues. I have had more than seventy meetings with heads of state and governments and heads of international organizations", he said.

Ivanov hosted the third Regional Summit of the Presidents of Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro and Kosovo, whereas Macedonia will chair the South East European Cooperation Process in the period 2012 - 2013, allowing the country to provide active contribution in strengthening regional cooperation.

"In 2013 we will be hosting the Summit dedicated to the Dialogue among Civilizations, marking the 10th anniversary of such summits initiated by my predecessor, President Trajkovski", he added.

In the field of diplomacy, the President accredited, with a decree, 18 new Ambassadors of the Republic of Macedonia in countries around the world.

"For our diplomats, I urged, to be given greater freedom of action by reducing the bureaucracy of the diplomatic service, which would go along with the increase of responsibilities of diplomats on the basis of which they will be evaluated, according to the results achieved", Ivanov said.

In terms of cultural diplomacy, he stressed Macedonia could be proud of its cultural and historical heritage, with plenty of things to offer the world.

"Concerning the sport, I will not waste many words. We have all seen what a sport success means. Not only it celebrated our country but, more importantly, the success united Macedonia", said Ivanov.

As Supreme Commander, he said the Army of the Republic of Macedonia, as a shield of freedom, security and stability, continued to give confidence in the Macedonian society.

"This year, the Army got a new Chief of Staff, in compliance with the highest standards of the Alliance. Some time ago I approved the new organizational structure and formation of the Army, the transformation of which will begin in early 2012. Be assured that in anticipation of the next NATO Summit in Chicago, we remain committed to the reform process as an investment in our European and Euro-Atlantic future. This will be an argument more for our accession to the Alliance, along with the judgment of the International Court of Justice", emphasized Ivanov.

In the spirit of the 20th independence anniversary, The President bestowed several meritorious individuals, institutions and organizations significant for the Macedonian statehood, independence and sovereignty.

"By bestowing them, I expressed gratitude to sincere friends of Macedonia, who support us everywhere and always", added Ivanov.

With regards to communication with citizens, he said this was done in direct meetings during regular visits to villages and towns throughout Macedonia, but also indirectly, through the People's Offices.

"We need to invest real values in young generations. We must have faith in them. Our young people are exactly where we have led them by now. Therefore, their education and advancement is necessary. We have also prompted competition in the field of science by awarding title 'Youngest Scientist'. This proved that there are young successful people from Macedonia at the most prestigious universities in the world", said Ivanov.

According to him, jubilees and anniversaries always represent an occasion for recollection of what has happened, what passed, but also a time for debate about the future.

"This year we marked and celebrated important events. 20 years of independence, 10 years of the Ohrid Framework Agreement, 70 years since the National Liberation Struggle", said Ivanov.

"By implementing the Ohrid Framework Agreement we have reached a level of greater understanding, respect and tolerance. We have built a model that strives to integrate, not to assimilate. Our model is not only an example in the region, but it is an agreement with principles that inspire even beyond. We respect our model and we ask others to respect its principles, too. We defend our model. To all those who, for any reason doubt it, to all those who wish to undermine and bring discord, I am sending my clear message – do not try to do so, your effort is doomed to failure. To all those who by burning the flag, the flag of all citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, think that with that act they will burn the multi-ethnic coexistence, my message is - you will not succeed in that", said Ivanov.

The President was strongly focused this year on several important issues for the economy, including entrepreneurial activities in Macedonia, intensive economic diplomacy, energy security and renewable sources of energy, regional infrastructure and economic projects.

"Economic diplomacy has been high on my agenda in almost all of my working and informal meetings, participation in multilateral events and official visits to foreign countries, as well as during the visits of foreign dignitaries to the Republic of Macedonia. Business forums and meetings with businessmen have always been part of my international agenda", stressed Ivanov.

He expressed belief that energy sector development was the basic and main driving force of economy, state, society.

"Therefore, as President, looking far beyond my mandate, I became actively involved in exploring all possibilities to join the planned energy corridors, which should provide long-term energy stability. I am particularly pleased that we are in advanced negotiation stage for inclusion of Macedonia in the South Stream pipeline", said Ivanov.

He added that in times of vast global economic crisis, thanks to the prudent macroeconomic policy of the Government and the economy led by the Macedonian citizens, "we live in one of the least indebted European countries, a country with one of the largest growth rates in Europe".

The President said the country continued with maximum action on all fields, meaning achievement of European Union standards, values and criteria.

"Our citizens will enjoy the benefits of such a position of the state. Therefore, time has come, on the 20th anniversary of independence to turn to the future. I appeal, political and especially daily political bickering for where the state goes, or whether there is or are we looking for alternatives, stop. The answer is clear our strategic goals have always been membership in NATO and membership in the EU", said Ivanov.

He also sent a message to the country's neighbor that the Republic of Macedonia was a reality.

"This reality existed, exists and will exist. For issues such as our highest values - identity, language, culture, and constitution, we do not want and there is no need to talk at all. No one in this world has the right to deny to other such high values. These are values that can only be ascertained and respected. Therefore, led by the expressed will of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, in future, I will not accept a Report in which the Macedonian language and identity is disrespected", added Ivanov.

In addition, he sent a message to Macedonian citizens, urging them to be calm.

"No one in this world can and will be able to deprive us of what we have, our constitutional name, our identity. We will succeed in achieving our strategic goals. The issue is not whether, but when. And until then, united, we will create our successful European and Euro-Atlantic future. We will attain the goals. We will become members of the European Union and NATO. And we will be what we are in these institutions. There is no other option", said Ivanov.

In conclusion, the President said that when it came to national interests, strategic goals and determinations, there was only one party that recognized no division of leaders and members, of old and young, of left and right.

"This party is called Macedonia, and we must be united in that single party. Only then will we succeed in achieving the strategic goals. Everything we have achieved so far, in severe times of blockades, isolation and threats to our sovereignty, identity and survival, made us stronger and better prepared", underlined President Gjorge Ivanov in his annual Parliament address.

Some very disturbing comments mixed in with a little bit of testosterone. I give it a FAIL.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Vey disturbing indeed.

The ruling confirmed that the Republic of Macedonia may use its constitutional name within international organizations in which Greece is a member.

I commented on this in the other thread also. The only thing that the ruling confirmed is that Greece should not object to Macedonia joining international organisations so long as it applies as FYROM, as per the Interim Accord. Now, unless FYROM is the "constitutional name" of Macedonia, Ivanov is blatantly lying to the Macedonian people.

[Vangelovski]

Its business as usual. The Macedonian Government attempting to manipulate the facts and the Macedonian people letting them.

[George S.]

la bira the eu condemned greece for using embargoes & a lot of countries areasking why is greece interfeering in macedonia.s affairs.
A lot of people in macedonia have swallowed the results with good news that it's a winner for macedonia forgetting harsh realities in the process.The politicians are feeding the people bs that they have won.

[Risto the Great]

Vey disturbing indeed.

I commented on this in the other thread also. The only thing that the ruling confirmed is that Greece should not object to Macedonia joining international organisations so long as it applies as FYROM, as per the Interim Accord. Now, unless FYROM is the "constitutional name" of Macedonia, Ivanov is blatantly lying to the Macedonian people.

This did not go unnoticed by me.
I am in a dilemma now. The Macedonian people are being lied to, so I feel sorry for my people. However, if they are not sheep, they should know they are being duped (yet again). It should be infuriating.

Why is nobody in Macedonia keeping these people honest?

[George S.]

In a democracy you'd think the opposition parties would keep the politicians honest or the media would write something up.Not in macedonia.There seems to be a lot of things deliberately hidden from the public.If they knew they probably would revolt,who knows.They have been lulled in a false sense of security.Probably the communist mentality to keep peole in the dark is part & parcel of hidden agendas cavorting & capitulating with the enemy..

[DedoAleko]

грција ќе се повлекува од Времената спогодба - меѓународната заедница молчи?!

Под наслов ”Екслузивно откритие” денеска во најтиражните грчки весници осамнаа статии во кои се вели дека “Времената спогодба е невалиден договор” .

Адвокати и правници бараат официјална Атина да се повлече од спогодбата со Скопје бидејќи нема никаква правна обврска да се придржува до неа.

“Врeмената Спогодба која во основа е договор за економска соработка, случајно или не, грчкиот парламент не ја ратификувал и не е објавена во службен весник. Така што овој договор е невалиден и не се применува и грција може во секое време да се повика на своето право на вето против Скопје без каква било правна обврска” пишува во денешен Етнос, адвокатот Фотис Канелопулос, мотивиран од како што вели, прашината која Скопје ја крева околу овој договор.

Покрај што ја доведува во прашање Времената спогодба, грција ја минимизира и пресудата од Хаг.

Толкувањето на одлуката, Атина го нарече “Ала Скопје”. Обвинуваат дека Премиерот Груевски пресудата ја читал парцијално, елиминарајки го вториот дел , каде Судот не ја обврзува грција во иднина да се воздржи од вето.

Колку е Атина сериозна во најавите за откажување од Времената спогодба? Со исклучок на радикалите на Караџаферис, од грчката Влада нема официјален став. И Брисел и Вашингтон кои постојано повикуваат на брзо решавање на спорот, избегнуват да го коментираат ваквото сценарио.

Доколку грција го направи овој потег, тоа ќе значи прекин на преговорите за името и признание на властите во Атина дека се неконструктивни, спротивно на она на кое 20 години ја убедуваат меѓународната зедница.

Се уште нема одговор од грција и на поканата на Груевски за средба со Андонис Самарас.

izvor: http://sitel.com.mk/dnevnik/makedoni...aednica-molchi

[Soldier of Macedon]

So Greece is planning to quit the Interim Accord. Something Macedonia never should have entered in the first place, and something subsequent Macedonian governments should have declared null and void long ago.

[julie]

Greece will be withdrawing from the Interim Accord - and watch Gruevski try and uphold it the Albanian patriot.
Makes one wonder what Greece is planning.

[Vangelovski]

Greece saves us again...this is unbelievable. In 2008, Greece saved us from a name change with they rejected "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" and now they may actually save us from the IA as well. What a pathetic country Macedonia has turned into.