United Macedonia Diaspora

[Vangelovski]

Victor,

You can worm and twist all you like. There are abosolute truths in this world. There are some things which are simply anti-Macedonian. If you want to live in an Orwellian world where such nasties are not spoken of than feel free to delude yourself, but your delusions will not be entertained here.

If you are going to claim that certain views and actions are not anti-Macedonian, because the underlying motives may not be, then I call BS. Views and actions, regardless of their underlying motives, can still be anti-Macedonian. One can still intend to do something good but in actual fact do the opposite. As has already been explained to you, for more than a century pretenders have come and gone telling the Macedonian people to 'trust them', that while they're views and actions may seem anti-Macedonian, they really have a "grand plan". Nothing has ever eventuated out of these "grand plans" other than more capitulations, compromises, human rights abuses and losses of freedom.

As to your obsession with labels, you might find, if you actually take the effort, that I and the others on the MTO Committee have rarely labelled anyone as anti-Macedonian. We have clearly expressed which views we consider as anti-Macedonian and provided our rationale, but our labelling of people as anti-Macedonian has been rare and only directed to a few individuals and organisations that have unapologetically and consistently taken an anti-Macedonian stand and continue to do so.

On the topic of anti-Macedonian views, it is absolutely essential to point them out for what they really are. For too long Macedonians have gone along with anything and everything that anyone in a suit and tie has told them to, rarely giving any further thought to the logical consequences of these ideas. Look at the result. If you think Macedonia is what it should be, then you have some serious issues. When something is clearly anti-Macedonian, such as the Badinter Principle, it is aboslutely essential to be described as such. We, however, are much more thorough and we provide our reasoning as to WHY it is anti-Macedonian. A turd is still a turd, no matter what you do to it.

[Risto the Great]

I like vicsinad, he sounds like he wears cardigans mostly and works in a government department.

If we multiplied vicsinad by 1000, we still wouldn't have someone useful for Macedonia because he believes all Macedonians are right about everything. Or, if they are wrong, he will not tell them.

vicsinad, there is a friendship group that Lavce has been writing about recently. You should join them.

I’m concerned more about peoples, cultures and languages than I am about political boundaries or ethnic affiliation based primarily on blood line or ancestry.

I am loathe to label you but will say you are a naive fool. Political boundaries and ancestry have shaped culture for far longer than you have been hugging trees. Go visit Greece and tell me what the "political boundaries" have done to my people there.

Still don't like the FA but agree with Badinter? Why & why?

[George S.]

Vicinad by now you have becomed accustomed by what we mean the macedonian cause.
A lot of people say they know what it is but do they work for it or agains't it? how do they measure up?.Y ou know the heroes like gotse delcev would be turning in their graves to see what has happened to macedonia.Also i see you are in agreement with the badinter still & you don't like the FA.I'm sorry to say that you would be of no use to the MTO because you have allready decided what you want to beleive.Think about it in terms of the cause it does make a difference.If you think it doesn't then you are barking up the wrong tree.
Also as mentioned if you beleive the uMd isUdoing a fantastic job why don't you go to them or other organizations that agree with your paticular philosophy.
RTG & Tom well said in your statements above,i fully agree with them.

[George S.]

I’m dedicated to the preservation of Macedonian culture and language (which, I see very little of from any Diaspora group aside from MHRMI and AMHRC’s work in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania); the proliferation of traditional Macedonian music; and humanitarian and environmental efforts. (As a side note, for these reasons and many more, regardless of how big or little our political differences, I highly detest the labeling of me and my views as anti-Macedonian)"
Too Late your views & statements show you in your full colors you are anti Macedonian & are trying to backtrack.you have been told you are not needed.,you been shown the door
You talk of Maceddonian culture & language not been preserved you are totally dead wrong.You only need to look the prolifitc organizations not only cultural but language based throughout the world.You have no idea what you are talking about.There are language courses at school at various levels & university.Culture has been preserved by the cvarious dancing group that are macedonian all over the world.They perform on regular times around the year.Also there are drama groups & historical societies.Especially historical societies in canada.There are pensioners groups & special interst groups in macedonian.We have radio programs & tv programs virtually everywhere.Internet radio etctc etc Stop talking rubbish,shut your mouth & get out of here.Pretending to be holier than thou.We saw first hand how you treated fellow members on the MTO these are fine people of high regard.You have no respect for anyone but yourself & your wicked views.You are a bitter & twisted person who can't realise why you are anti macedonian.You haven't answered Tom's question re your preference for badinter principle.After all this time after reading & discussing anything you can't bring yourself to admit you are anti macedonia you got real problems that means you shouldn't be here.

[George S.]

"Labeling and categorizing are not integral parts of free and democratic exchange of ideas; neither are ridiculing and name-calling. Rather, they are the unhealthy byproducts of not being able to convincingly present one's own views. For example, you may believe that what one Macedonian does is “anti-Macedonian.” Another Macedonian may believe some of what you do is “anti-Macedonian.” Yet, in a free and democratic exchange of ideas, if it is so astoundingly clear that one’s views are not in line with a pro-Macedonian agenda, wouldn’t that persons views stand out as such without the need for the label? However, you use the “anti-Macedonian” line simply to dissuade others from assuming a view that you disagree with. Your use of “anti-Macedonian” is not “calling a spade a spade.” Rather, it’s an irresponsible approach to discussing the issues and an insult to the other side of the coin of freedom of speech – mainly, freedom from responsibility, liability and dangerous consequences for how you say what you say. It fringes on slander, libel and character defamation."
Vicsinand These are stupid comments that are deranged from a allready stupid fool .You can't have two bites of the cherry & you can't have it both ways.You can have the label & be anti macedonian which ever you look at it is the same full circle you have & people like you have betrayed macedonia .you are not for the cause.People like you have prevented macedonia from realizing their full potential.Your true colors have come out you are just twisting that way & this way & worming this way or that way every possible excuse under the sun.You are only fooling only yourself.You do not support the ideals of the mto & principles you have said you support the badinter principles there's nothing more to say to you.You are not for the cause.The rest of your comments are that you can use any free speech rights to blab bs about anything ,that is to question what anyone proposes.You are abusing your democratic right & hoping to spread confusion in the guise of rights of freedom of speech.
Really now these comments are abnormal,you are a worm who is anti macedonian to the core you will not change your evil ways.As long as you harbor your hate for other people.You have views & wierd expectations you have allready expressed your desires to destroy macedonia further because that's all you are doing.Being anti cause has made you anti macedonian don't give any bs excuses that are supposed to give you the right to have it both ways.Given your views & have no t made detractions you should wear your label with pride!!!!

[vicsinad]

Political boundaries and ancestry have shaped culture for far longer than you have been hugging trees.

So have monarchs, wars, and disease. Does that mean we should be necessarily for them?

And I have only hugged one tree in my life; I've chopped and cut more than you can number in those little make-believe scenarios you have of me in my element.

[vicsinad]

Victor,

If you are going to claim that certain views and actions are not anti-Macedonian, because the underlying motives may not be, then I call BS.

If I say or do something that harms my family, but my motives are not to harm my family, I am not "anti-my family" and my actions weren't "anti-my family." Anti-, first and foremost, means to be against something. If we have an ethno-cultural definition of Macedonian, then you're saying these people and their views are against the ethno-cultural group of Macedonians. Which is not true, and I don't think it's what you're really getting at, whether you agree or not.

Different people have different views on the direction of societies. In reality, these people simply have disagreements with you on the paths to take. They are not against Macedonians. It's common in America that one gets labeled anti-American for opposing initiatives to make English the official languages in certain states. How is it that someone's different vision of how American society should look be anti-American and the other not? Forget it not being fair, it's inaccurate and unproductive to "the free and democratic exchange of ideas."

[George S.]

"If I say or do something that harms my family, but my motives are not to harm my family, I am not "anti-my family" and my actions weren't "anti-my family." Anti-, first and foremost, means to be against something. If we have an ethno-cultural definition of Macedonian, then you're saying these people and their views are against the ethno-cultural group of Macedonians. Which is not true, and I don't think it's what you're really getting at, whether you agree or not." This is the biggest bs dribble to come out on MTO forum for a long time you are just making excusesfor your anti.It's the same old reason that people who are treacherous ,treasoness,traitorship use.The same old tired bullshit
of trying to legitimise their actions of which are anti macedonian.
This is what is wrong with macedonia"Different people have different views on the direction of societies. In reality, these people simply have disagreements with you on the paths to take. They are not against Macedonians. It's common in America that one gets labeled anti-American for opposing initiatives to make English the official languages in certain states. How is it that someone's different vision of how American society should look be anti-American and the other not? Forget it not being fair, it's inaccurate and unproductive to "the free and democratic exchange of ideas."You are trying to have it both ways trying to excuse yourself throwing the baby out with the bathwater.All this is just anti to the cause which is the macedonian cause.In this you can't have choices you are either anti macedonian or pro macedonian .You have chosen anti & are trying to excuse yourself by not agreeing with what you've done is bad for the cause.
You are making excuses on excuses.Stop bullshitting.We have a saying here good riddance to bad rubbish

[Risto the Great]

So have monarchs, wars, and disease. Does that mean we should be necessarily for them?

And I have only hugged one tree in my life; I've chopped and cut more than you can number in those little make-believe scenarios you have of me in my element.

Yeah, volcanoes have also shaped culture. What exactly is your point?
I am not "for" political boundaries. I don't know where you got the "for" in any of this. However I do not underestimate their significance with respect to culture. I just think you are being argumentative for the sake of it.

You said you were less concerned with political boundaries, I merely pointed out how significant they are. I know in your world that you are right (as all Macedonians are about everything according to you) but you are wrong.

I hope the trees were sustainable.

I also hope you can tell us why you hate the FA but like the Badinter arrangements. Because you are really starting to sound anti-Macedonian.

[Risto the Great]

Different people have different views on the direction of societies. In reality, these people simply have disagreements with you on the paths to take. They are not against Macedonians. It's common in America that one gets labeled anti-American for opposing initiatives to make English the official languages in certain states. How is it that someone's different vision of how American society should look be anti-American and the other not? Forget it not being fair, it's inaccurate and unproductive to "the free and democratic exchange of ideas."

Can you think of any Macedonians that can be defined as "anti-Macedonian"?

Perhaps it might be useful to define "anti-Macedonian". I would (personally) define it as follows:

Acting against the concepts and principles as defined in the MTO Macedonian Cause. Accepting situations which demote Macedonian human rights in a manner where they are no longer of best practice and equal standing as compared to any other race.


You can take Badinter (and its inextricably linked FA) and stuff it up your arse.

I'd be happy to buy you a drink and tell the same to your face as well.

[vicsinad]

"I am not "for" political boundaries. I don't know where you got the "for" in any of this. However I do not underestimate their significance with respect to culture. I just think you are being argumentative for the sake of it."

My point was political national boundaries harms cultures more than helps cultures, it was not about their level of importance. Either you didn't read carefully, or it seems like you were being argumentative for the sake of it.

"I know in your world that you are right (as all Macedonians are about everything according to you) but you are wrong."

Another assumption and misinterpretation on your part.


"You can take Badinter (and its inextricably linked FA) and stuff it up your arse. "

According to you, everything you don't like about the OFA is inextricably linked to it. And because you don't like anything about the OFA, the whole cannot exist without any part. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find many parts of the OFA that aren't inextricably linked to it (unless, of course, you feel like being right...because you're always right in your world).

"I hope the trees were sustainable."

You mean you hope I chopped down the trees in a sustainable manner?

"Can you think of any Macedonians that can be defined as "anti-Macedonian"? "

Yes. And using your definition, especially this part, "Acting against the concepts and principles as defined in the MTO Macedonian Cause...", I can think of a couple MTO members, and some MTO forum members, who are anti-Macedonian. But maybe you should include that in your MTO Macedonian Cause statement, because it seems to be a central part of MTO's operations.

"I'd be happy to buy you a drink and tell the same to your face as well."

I'm sure you would.

[Vangelovski]

If I say or do something that harms my family, but my motives are not to harm my family, I am not "anti-my family" and my actions weren't "anti-my family." Anti-, first and foremost, means to be against something. If we have an ethno-cultural definition of Macedonian, then you're saying these people and their views are against the ethno-cultural group of Macedonians. Which is not true, and I don't think it's what you're really getting at, whether you agree or not.

Different people have different views on the direction of societies. In reality, these people simply have disagreements with you on the paths to take. They are not against Macedonians. It's common in America that one gets labeled anti-American for opposing initiatives to make English the official languages in certain states. How is it that someone's different vision of how American society should look be anti-American and the other not? Forget it not being fair, it's inaccurate and unproductive to "the free and democratic exchange of ideas."

I think we need a rule against stupid analogies. Too many of them on the MTO at the moment.

The views that I specifically call anti-Macedonian, are those that work against Macedonian freedom and that work against the human rights of Macedonians. I'm not referring to some vague notions, but specific and concrete policies, such as the Badinter Prinicple.

You've been avoiding the Badinter Principle like the plague lately. You said you support it but you do not support the other elements of the Framework Agreement. How is that possible? RtG is completely right when he says that it is inextricably linked to the FA. The Badinter Principle was designed SOLEY and SPECIFICALLY to protect the "other elements", or special privileges, given to the Albanians under the Framework Agreement. It serves no other purpose. How is it that you can support it and then claim not to support the special privileges it was designed to protect?

[Risto the Great]

My point was political national boundaries harms cultures more than helps cultures, it was not about their level of importance. Either you didn't read carefully, or it seems like you were being argumentative for the sake of it.

Clearly you have amnesia:

I’m concerned more about peoples, cultures and languages than I am about political boundaries or ethnic affiliation based primarily on blood line or ancestry.

If you are "more" concerned about one issue over another. This implies levels of importance. Clearly I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. You appear to have some kind of short term memory problem.

Try again.

[Risto the Great]

You've been avoiding the Badinter Principle like the plague lately. You said you support it but you do not support the other elements of the Framework Agreement. How is that possible? RtG is completely right when he says that it is inextricably linked to the FA. The Badinter Principle was designed SOLEY and SPECIFICALLY to protect the "other elements", or special privileges, given to the Albanians under the Framework Agreement.

Whilst vicsinad might feel he is being vicsinadomised on this forum, he is yet to explain why the "Badinter Mechanism" is good when it is indeed nothing more than the method employed to ensure the Framework Agreement is fulfilled. I fear he can' explain this but pride is getting in his way. He sounds partially UMDonian to me.

[vicsinad]

Clearly you have amnesia:

If you are "more" concerned about one issue over another. This implies levels of importance. Clearly I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. You appear to have some kind of short term memory problem.

Try again.

Clearly, you suffer from lack of comprehension.

Vicsinad said:

"The diversity of the dialects of the Macedonian people are fading away as village elders die and the literary Macedonian language takes roots in the younger generations. That is one way of many that local Macedonian cultures were harmed for the sake of a political, national body."


Try again.