Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[julie]

Mastika, it seems that we just pick money off the evergrowing and fruitful money tree. Many dont understand the concept of hard work, my parents generation would work 2 jobs to provide for their families, not to amass wealth,but to provide for them as they had the opportunity to do so. They had a strong work ethic, and many killed themselves from working themselves so hard with physical conditions like heart attacks etc from not resting
Sometimes I wonder whether the unemplyment rate may have a large margin of citizens that have no work ethic , nor pride in themselves. I know it sounds harsh, but many expect handouts while they have their designer goods, the younger generation mentality should be changed

[Bill77]

We are our own worst enemy,

And you can talk

I would never vote for a name change.

Who's talking about a name change? There are other ways of stabbing Macedonians in the back or being our worst enemy and you know perfectly well what i meant.

[Mastika]

Who's talking about a name change? There are other ways of stabbing Macedonians in the back or being our worst enemy and you know perfectly well what i meant.

Bill, I know very well what you are talking about, and frankly I'm not going to play along with these pointless mind games.

[Makedonetz]

Hopefully our kids can remember what our past generations did for Macedonian identity. The next generation is important as they are the future, and hopefully the politics listens to the people crying for not a change to our culture and history.

[Jankovska]

even tho the outcome of te referendum is a worry,the referendum itself is the suicide. A referendum means people are happy to vote for a name change,to vote even tho it's their human right.means people are asked to vote on who they are.they don't need to do that,they know who they are.this is a neverending game that we must pull out off.people should go out and take the gov down,establish a new,peoples gov,one that will have the balls tostop all this bullshit.this is a great time to do that,greecd is sinking in debt,the eu finally saw through them.

[Bratot]

It is extremely common for Diaspora groups to register discord with citizens of the mother country on matters pertaining to their homeland. The unfortunate aspect is that Macedonians in the Diaspora have to do it on fundamental matters such as the name of the country. If 25% or 49% of Macedonia's population are potentially convinced a new name could be ok, then Julie is closer to correct than many Macedonians care to admit.

We in the Diaspora should be arguing about how much foreign investment should be let in, or what kind of architecture should be employed in Tetovo. Not the name and identity of our people.

Risto, sometimes there is a common feeling that as a result of the incapability of the Macedonians who are now in the Diaspora to deal with the problems their country was/is facing chosed to leave and to put the blame on those who stayed.

Or to be more precizely, they've escaped from the responsibility to decide and still try to 'sell brain' to those who stayed.

It would be fair enough if the Diaspora was interested in coming back to Macedonia, willingly loosing some better life standard in order to improve the one in their country.

Let's not forget that those who left Macedonia did it because they couldn't handle the difficult conditions in Macedonia in the last 100 years, 2 Balkan wars-1&2WW- political exterminations- international pressures and sanctions - war in it's neighborhood - a civil war and the on going miserably economical conditions.

Therefore calling those who went through all of that as the 'MOST STUPID' people is another arrogant stupidance producing separation of the Macedonian people and senseless efforts to shift the blame for the guilt we All participate.

We could easily say that the previous generations that have shifted their identity or religion for other personal benefits in their time were also extremally 'stupid', but maybe there was no posibilities to develop some inteligence to lead the masses through the difficultes that time as it's same even today.

Wrong people, manipulative in their interests, deceptive, self oriented and many other foreign influences have produced such 'leadind inteligency'.

The best thing we could do is to show we care with EDUCATING the people, but to do that we need to learn the pedagogical ethics if we want to be accepted, by understanding management ethics first.

With calling anyone 'stupid' you will not contribute to him to LEARN but you will for sure make him despise you and reject you.

I don't believe that Julie or yourself would like to make such impact, for that reason I ask you to rethink your approach before you make permament damage because you care less.

[Prolet]

Julie was simply frustrated i dont believe she meant anything bad by her comment, its happened to all of us before.

Those who came to Australia earlier from say the mid to late 60s till about the early 90s managed a better life for themselves aswell as their families where as now its next to impossible to buy a quality home not only in Sydney and Melbourne but cities like Canberra and Perth aswell.

In the next 5 to 10 years life in Australia is going to be extremely difficult, the prices and living expenses are going through the roof yet the wages are only slightly higher and cant cope with the demands anymore. As the great Australian dream was to always own your own home, its next to impossible to do so now unless you have somebody to help you somehow whether its a parent,relative or a close friend either way if the average wage in Australia is $50,000 per year lets say even $70,000 there is no way you can buy an average house in a suburb thats within 15km of the CBD which the prices have risen to around $600,000 for the average 3 bedroom home. If a family is spending up to 30% of their wages on their mortgage and in this instance its probably even higher then that, the levels of stress do tend to rise alot more and thats not a good thing.

In the early to mid 80s, people in Australia with hard work would pay off their houses in short periods like 5 to 10 years max, now its alot harder thats for sure.

The thing is that these eastern European countries lived in communism and were closed countries, alot of the people never traveled around so they didnt know what it was like abroad and this was easy to mislead them and tell them all sorts of stories which they bought but in the last 10 years the people inside Macedonia are educated alot especially the children that have now grown up and have traveled around Europe for starters can now see for themselves what life is really like in the West.

[fyrOM]

They just have to say something to look like they are working and get their pay. If they were delusional of a solution involving a change to the name they are fast seeing their delusions evaporate bar the last one the ultimate suicide shot. They can see that it is not a choice of which variation will Macedonia choose there is none. Then it becomes the only choice relent or pick a version they think they can sell and forcibly hammer it home. How to do this is the waiting game and positioning of resources.

[Risto the Great]

Risto, sometimes there is a common feeling that as a result of the incapability of the Macedonians who are now in the Diaspora to deal with the problems their country was/is facing chosed to leave and to put the blame on those who stayed.

Or to be more precizely, they've escaped from the responsibility to decide and still try to 'sell brain' to those who stayed.

It would be fair enough if the Diaspora was interested in coming back to Macedonia, willingly loosing some better life standard in order to improve the one in their country.

Let's not forget that those who left Macedonia did it because they couldn't handle the difficult conditions in Macedonia in the last 100 years, 2 Balkan wars-1&2WW- political exterminations- international pressures and sanctions - war in it's neighborhood - a civil war and the on going miserably economical conditions.

Therefore calling those who went through all of that as the 'MOST STUPID' people is another arrogant stupidance producing separation of the Macedonian people and senseless efforts to shift the blame for the guilt we All participate.

We could easily say that the previous generations that have shifted their identity or religion for other personal benefits in their time were also extremally 'stupid', but maybe there was no posibilities to develop some inteligence to lead the masses through the difficultes that time as it's same even today.

Wrong people, manipulative in their interests, deceptive, self oriented and many other foreign influences have produced such 'leadind inteligency'.

The best thing we could do is to show we care with EDUCATING the people, but to do that we need to learn the pedagogical ethics if we want to be accepted, by understanding management ethics first.

With calling anyone 'stupid' you will not contribute to him to LEARN but you will for sure make him despise you and reject you.

I don't believe that Julie or yourself would like to make such impact, for that reason I ask you to rethink your approach before you make permament damage because you care less.

Bratot, permanent damage occurs when the name is changed. It would be stupid to allow that to happen. I cannot make that any clearer.

Did you leave Macedonia because you could not handle it? In fact many Macedonians from the Republic are already feeling nostalgic about the Yugo times particularly in relation to the economic prosperity they enjoyed. An alternative way to look at it is the people who stayed behind did not have the fortitude to embrace new cultures and work practices in new countries. So it could be argued that the ones who stayed behind were the least entrepreneurial. Either way, it is a pointless argument which does not favour anybody.

Anybody who is reading this forum from Macedonia clearly has an interest in Macedonia. I would bet none of them would be in favour of a name change. They are clearly not stupid.

The ones who advocate a name change will be very hard to convince as they have no allegiance to their nation and identity. They might feel extremely intelligent because they exist on a level where such matters are beneath them as they are "citizens of the world" etc etc. They will never be useful to the Macedonian Cause. Others are pro name change because they are anti-Macedonians, they are also against the Macedonian Cause. The ones who don't advocate a name change BUT are not disgusted by it are merely apathetic and will most likely never raise their level of awareness to a level where they can be useful to the Cause. I suspect they represent a small proportion of the total "pro-negotiation" people.

[Bratot]

Bratot, permanent damage occurs when the name is changed. It would be stupid to allow that to happen. I cannot make that any clearer.

Did you leave Macedonia because you could not handle it? In fact many Macedonians from the Republic are already feeling nostalgic about the Yugo times particularly in relation to the economic prosperity they enjoyed. An alternative way to look at it is the people who stayed behind did not have the fortitude to embrace new cultures and work practices in new countries. So it could be argued that the ones who stayed behind were the least entrepreneurial. Either way, it is a pointless argument which does not favour anybody.
Anybody who is reading this forum from Macedonia clearly has an interest in Macedonia. I would bet none of them would be in favour of a name change. They are clearly not stupid.

I said there is such common feeling in the same maner you see them stupid.

It's not pointless when it's causing damage whether you admit or not, I don't know how you expect someone who is reading this forum from Macedonia to feel and he is interested in Macedonian cause to have you or Julie generalize about how 'stupid the Macedonians in the republic are'.

The ones who advocate a name change will be very hard to convince as they have no allegiance to their nation and identity. They might feel extremely intelligent because they exist on a level where such matters are beneath them as they are "citizens of the world" etc etc. They will never be useful to the Macedonian Cause. Others are pro name change because they are anti-Macedonians, they are also against the Macedonian Cause. The ones who don't advocate a name change BUT are not disgusted by it are merely apathetic and will most likely never raise their level of awareness to a level where they can be useful to the Cause. I suspect they represent a small proportion of the total "pro-negotiation" people.

I can identify all these cathegories among Macedonians wherever they live.
We have been dealing this anti-Macedonian portion recently, one of them is selfproclaimed UMD from USA and other individuals like the pseudo-journalist Ivo Petkovski from London.

But I would not run with such general statement of how 'stupid' is our Diaspora.

I will always be in favour of unitary voice and cause concordance which have to appear. You alone or myself alone can't do much and in order to change something within the Republic there has to be synchronized efforts based on common trust, respect and resistant zeal.

[Risto the Great]

Based on the last poll I would be calling 17.9% of Macedonians in Macedonia "stupid". I have never suggested everyone is stupid from there.

The pointless argument I was referring to was the issue of who migrated from Macedonia and who did not. If I follow your argument, I should perhaps be relegated to 3rd position in relation to Macedonia's future:

Ethnic Albanians first (legally backed by stupid Macedonians)
Macedonians in Macedonia second (legally allowed by stupid Macedonians)
Macedonians in Diaspora third (illegally interfering pesky trouble makers)

Bratot, we have to watch out for stupid Macedonians. They are everywhere ... even in the Republic.

[Bratot]

Based on the last poll I would be calling 17.9% of Macedonians in Macedonia "stupid". I have never suggested everyone is stupid from there.

The pointless argument I was referring to was the issue of who migrated from Macedonia and who did not. If I follow your argument, I should perhaps be relegated to 3rd position in relation to Macedonia's future:

Ethnic Albanians first (legally backed by stupid Macedonians)
Macedonians in Macedonia second (legally allowed by stupid Macedonians)
Macedonians in Diaspora third (illegally interfering pesky trouble makers)

Bratot, we have to watch out for stupid Macedonians. They are everywhere ... even in the Republic.

It's a matter of opinion, stereotypical views from both sides.
I'm always trying to reduce the destructive climate among us and as I said many times even if I don't agree with some of your opinions I will not leave you alone when you need my support.

Even the stupid Macedonians could be influenced by the stronger majority and the deceptive 'intelectuals' advocating for a name change will not survive in the public opinion if we put real pressure on them and confront them directly, every single poisonable text they release to be haunt down.
But we need such activity, we have let too much open space for them.

[julie]

Bratot, its the apathy and mentality of the people advocating name change I refer to as stupid, and will not retract from that. That is stupid.

I did not say all Macedonians are stupid. i know I can be stupid. I am a Macedonian
I am not going to argue my sentiments on the apathy and slave mentality, if I thought all were, I would not give a shit. I am frustrated with the group of Tito-ists, UMdists, serbomani, grkomani, and the ones that have no pride in themselves to deny their own blood. Rarely, like once in a blue moon will any one of those people ever see the light, and no amout of dialogue and discussion will alter their pathetic approach to denying their own existence or heritage. That is stupid.
The reason I say this , is no one in RoM has to look over their shoulder, or fear anyone crouching under a window, that if Macedonian was to be "whispered" in their own home, would they face the most serious repercussions. I can attest to this , an example from my mothers side of the family in Egeyskiot del.
These are the very people that revolted against the oppression at the time of the Gragaynskata Voyna. For those basic human rights that was denied to them to even be heard speaking Macedonian.
STUPID is some of these people with those basic human rights already in place - they can go to school and speak in Macedonia, they can go to Macedonian chrch services, they can freely do anything in Macedonian ,
These people advocating and in support of name change are short of a few marbles.
My father is from RoM, I have family from both sides there, first cousins etc and its the apathy that frustrates me, and the slave mentality, that is what is stupid.

Hopefully this clarifies

[Bratot]

Julie, with all respect to you but that was hardly visible when you wrote:

Originally Posted by julie
Macedonians in Macedonia - nay budali prosti narod vo svetot

Anyway thank you for the clarification later, it's appreciated.

[DedoAleko]

The Macedonian dilemma: to change the name or not to change

The Macedonian dilemma: to change the name or not to change

Ireneusz A. Slupkov - 8/7/2010

The Macedonian state like any in the world has its dilemmas. Should this democratic state change its name and, thanks to a "European dictate" enter the European Union, or not accept this dictate and remain outside the Union?

Game of the European Union

The European Union acknowledges that Macedonia, more than any other country in the Western Balkans, at present meets, just as it did prior to the adoption of Romania and Bulgaria to the European Union, all the requirements for entry into the Union, but there is a "but." That "but" is that it must first change the name of the Republic of Macedonia into the Republic of Northern Macedonia or another name that is acceptable, and now attention- to Greece. Probably the majority of readers will ask why? Because Greece has a region that also has the name Macedonia. Paranoia? Yes, indeed, and the worst is that all of the governments of the countries in the EU know that, and so they accept that paranoia.

The will of a sovereign nation is not valid It does not matter that the Macedonians in a referendum Sept. 8, 1991 expressed their will as a sovereign state and that their country is to be called the Republic of Macedonia.

The European Union hides behind Greece like a little coward who is not only a coward but a hypocrite. Neither the Union nor the EU hypocrites, the politicians, diplomats and experts of all kinds considers it important that this is contrary to international law, and that this claim would be political suicide for the government of the Prime Minister of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski as indeed for any Western government. But what if the economically weak Macedonia can be moved by such a paranoid request? The hope is that strong pressure will eventually succeed. The most interesting thing is that this absurd demand comes from the "heralds of democracy" and "teachers" of the countries of Central Europe and the Balkans.

Rights for minorities in Western Europe

The fact that the EU states themselves have problems with the rights of minorities such as those in France (Alsatians, Basques, Bretons, Catalans, Corsicans, Provencals), in Greece (Macedonians, Pomaks, Turks, Roma) and Spain (the Basques, Galicians, Catalans and those who dwell in the Leon region), is of little interest to anyone in the Union. This is in essence the hypocrisy of the European Union - one set of rights for us and another set for others. And still the mentoring tone, for teaching all in the Union and those outside. The Irish referendum is the example of Europe's recognition of the will of the people.

You will be voting as long as it takes to get the vote the EU wants. And now the same request is put to Macedonia. We know that you're right but because of the fact that we are not a democratic EU federation of states and your country is too weak to oppose us directly, as Germany, France and the United Kingdom do, we will impose on you and the Serbs demands which that will break you, but then you
will be accepted.”

Macedonian dilemma

The Macedonian government now finds itself in a difficult situation. On the one hand Macedonians see their future in the Union. They still erroneously believe that it will be a new phase, which will increase their living standard and promote the economic development of the country. Wrong, because you need to have well-developed and competitive industries, which, unfortunately, Macedonia does not have.

Not recognizing the Macedonian nation’s decision in naming their own state also does not bode well for the future, because if they do not recognize the state name now they will never recognize it in the future. While other EU countries will be able to redeem what they want, the sovereignty of Macedonia. Will have been weakened. Macedonia will become a colony or protectorate. But, of course, no one will acknowledge that the Union's policy is such in relation to Macedonia.

Changing the name-the political suicide

Changing the name would be political suicide not only for the current government, but for everyone else. Unfortunately, Macedonian opposition - the party of the former communists - SDSM is doing everything to accept the demand of the EU - read the Greek ultimatum to change the name. This party has a huge influence on the media (90%), which presents a vision of political hecatomb if Macedonia does not change its name and remain outside the Union.

On the other hand, a recent poll shows that 57% of the Macedonians refuse to accept the change. By contrast, 90% of the Albanians want the change in order to enter the Union, and thanks this change, they will be able to work freely and migrate to EU countries. Unfortunately, this is how different visions of the future of the state look in a multiethnic society. For some, Macedonian is a matter of self-identification and the historical past and for a second group, Albanians, it is a matter of self-interest rather than state interest, which for them is not regarded as the same as their own interest. Continual Albanian claims have led to political tension. Macedonians still feel the injustice of the international pressure which has granted disproportionate rights to Albanians.

This gives them disproportionate access to wealth and parity in all state institutions, and the recognition of the Albanian language as a second official language, while, in fact, Albanians constitute no more than about 18% of the population. Officially, they claim 22% to 25%, but this figure was overstated by the presence of Kosovars living in Macedonia, who did not leave Macedonia after the Albanian-Serb conflict. Does the European Union or the United States recognize minority languages as official languages? No, but Macedonia was forced to grant such recognition.

The entire set of policies of the European Union regarding the Macedonian state are legal and historical injustices against the Republic of Macedonia.

izvor: http://www.globalpolitician.com/26551-macedonia