Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Sovius]

I don't remember calling you personally a Nazi. Please provide the link. I called others Nazi in reaction to calling me racist. That's way over the top.
Secondly, I don't see the connection to what I said in that last message. I repeat, if there are some 300 PHD's or so that support the Greek side in a letter, surely you can do the same with PHD's that support your side.
Thirdly, the reason why I mentioned these PHD's is not to show you that I'm right because they say so. Theoretically they can all be wrong of course. It's to show you that I'm not the olnly one who finds it difficult to believe that you remained pure of blood, unmixed with anyone (especially with God forbid Turks or Bulgarians), and direct descendants of Ancient Macedonians.
There are PHD's that say the same thing as I. There are even politicians in ROM who said the same thing. So how can I be isolated ?

Post #12, I believe it was.

I’m not a Macedonian. I’m an American.

If it wasn’t for this site and others, many people around the world would remain unaware of the atrocities that the Republic of Hellas has been committing against Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians for almost a century, because of the political and economic complexities involved. The Republic of Hellas is a Western European tourist trap. There are investments to be protected and illusions that need to be preserved, just like Disneyland. There is an economic element that influences both the political, social and academic aspects, as far as, the ethnocide is concerned.

Regarding Miller’s 300, you have presented a political construct designed to reverse a political decision based on international law using an archaic intellectual model that continues to contradict contemporary anthropological evidence and the Renaissance Period Model of historical interpretation. No matter how many scholars have been prompted to sign this letter, numerous aspects of their research and the beliefs presented in the text of this document have been invalidated simply because population geneticists have demonstrated over the last decade that it would be a scientific impossibility for most ethnic Macedonians, no matter which one of the partitioned regions or the Republic they continue to live in, to be the descendents of populations who were assumed to have poured in to the area out of Eastern Europe during the 6th Century AD by researchers living in the 19th Century. Go ask one of your political parrots what he thinks of the similarities between oditsi and odyssey in light of this evidence. It’s self-evident to anyone familiar with 21st Century anthropological developments.

It’s pretty clear that you’re confusing a valid legal matter with a political debate and the facades that typically go along with such pointless rounds of posturing.

Here’s what the “Name Issue” represents in relation to the legal reality:

Does a sovereign, democratic nation have the right to use an ethnic term that has been in use for (not just by) the people who live and have lived in this geographic region since before Europe’s Ancient Period to represent itself internationally and politically?

As you can see, the actions of the Republic of Hellas are infringing upon every single human being’s right to continue to refer to Macedonians as Macedonians, as well.



19th Century researchers and your own ancestors clearly demonstrated that, while you may very well be Grecophonic, you are not Greek. It’s time to throw the toga away Donald.

[Pelister]

If the only criteria for entry to the E.U was the good treatment of minorities, Macedonia would be in.

Notice how Greece continues to blatantly violate human rights, but it is Macedonia that is being pressured, by the E.U.

What this demonstrates is that the E.U is not concerned about human rights violations. Sure, there is provision for it in its charter, but in the world of real politics, this means nothing.

The other problem for Macedonia is this. Greece is exporting its policies on minorities - it has taken this "system" of denial, of assimilation and elimination 'over the border'.

The Macedonians were never the problem. The issue is a problem internal to Greece. The decision to talk to the Greeks about their problem, made it Macedonia's problem, and everyone elses. The point I am making is that - the Macedonians have created this problem for themselves.

The rants and raves of Greece - the political damage Greece could do was at its limits. What is so great about E.U and NATO membership anyway? There is nothing "membership" can give us that we can't have from them anyway. It will just take time.

Have you seen Nimtez latest proposal. It is devilish, and deceptive. I can't believe they are considering this rubbish.

We have always been taught at University that the Name of the State is the highest expression of its nationality, and the only legal and legitimate expression of a nationality, in the family of nations around the world.

Look at this cunning Nimetz breakdown.

Name of State: Republic of North Macedonia (divorces the Macedonians from their State - i.e., the State is no longer the expression of the Macedonian nationality. Therefore, there is no Macedonian nationality).
Language: Macedonian
Nationality/Identity: Macedonian

The name of our State, can only be an expression of our Macedonian nationality - or there is no nationality, in the world of nations.

What Nimetz proposes is very evil. I can't believe they are considering this garbage.

[Pelister]

Have you seen Nimtez latest proposal. It is devilish, and deceptive. I can't believe they are considering this rubbish.

We have always been taught at University that the Name of the State is the highest expression of its nationality, and the only legal and legitimate expression of a nationality, in the family of nations around the world.

Look at this cunning Nimetz breakdown.

Name of State: Republic of North Macedonia (divorces the Macedonians from their State - i.e., the State is no longer the expression of the Macedonian nationality. Therefore, there is no Macedonian nationality).
Language: Macedonian
Nationality/Identity: Macedonian

What Nimetz proposes is very evil. I can't believe they are considering this garbage. I am despairing at where all of this is going. If they are considering these kinds of breakdowns, seriously, we are in bigger trouble than I thought.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Pelister, not language/identity: Macedonian, but written in Macedonian in all international forums.

Република Северна Македонија за името на државата и две варијанти за јазикот и нацијата - „makedonski“ (како што е во нашиот јазик, но напишано на латиница)......

So, an international meeting takes place between America, France, Greece and Macedonia, for example.

American
French
Greek
Makedonski


-------------
As I said before, the most idiotic proposal to date. Nimetz needs to eat another kebabovlaki and re-assess.

[Pelister]

Pelister, not language/identity: Macedonian, but written in Macedonian in all international forums.



So, an international meeting takes place between America, France, Greece and Macedonia, for example.

American
French
Greek
Makedonski


-------------
As I said before, the most idiotic proposal to date. Nimetz needs to eat another kebabovlaki and re-assess.

Its evil.

As I said the name of our State is the highest political expression of our nationality.

The State needs to be an expression of the people. That is what makes it a Nation, AND gives us a Macedonian Nationality.

If the Nation State is NOT a political expression of the Macedonian historical ethno-cultural group - there is no Macedonian Nationality. There is recognition and acknowledgement of a Macedonian language, a Macedonian culture, but no formal recognition of a Macedonian Nationality. That is the difference.


The Nimetz proposal is a ruse, a trick to decieve the Macedonian government. This is deception at its finest. Will they take the bait?

It means that Macedonia is a geographical entity, open to the possibility that it is populated by Greek and Bulgarian Nationals, but no Macedonian nationals.

I can't believe the idiots in the Macedonian government are considering this rubbish.

[Daskalot]

They must wake up, we need to stop negotiating ASAP, otherwise this will get very ugly, there are elements within Macedonia that are prepared to take action against the government if they change the name in any way or form.
Do not wake the bear that sleeps, look at what happened to the Bulgarian Prime Minister in 1895 and to the Serbian King Alexander I of Yugoslavia in 1934.
And numerous others.

Do not go down this path.

[Soldier of Macedon]

...look at what happened to the Bulgarian Prime Minister in 1895 and to the Serbian King Alexander I of Yugoslavia in 1934.
And numerous others.

Numerous others, many of them traitors.....

[Daskalot]

Numerous others, many of them traitors.....

Macedonians have fought for their name and right in history, to change that now will most likely result in bloodshed.

[Pelister]

Here is a letter I got from A.Mitreski. I am posting it here because I believe above all else in transparency and accountability - without accountability there is no participation.

I think you are frustrated with this process just as I am and every Macedonian in the world is. And somehow you are pissed at UMD. UMD is not the reason why we are in this position. I fully agree with you that these negotiations undermine the sovereignty of Macedonia and its citizens. Read up the write up on the panel in yale where I asked Nimitz what international law gives the right to Greece to dictate the name of a sovereign country. He said that there is no such law, but Macedonia, if it wants to enter certain international organizations then it is bound to negotiate over the name. He is right. We can say fuck off and stop negotiations, but what would happen next nobody knows.

The position of Macedonia in the international community is very week since Bukuresht. Too much nationalism and the ancient rhetoric from Macedonia have damaged our reputation although we were the losers last April. Which tells you that politics is a very sophisticated game that Greece plays to perfection. So we need to be very careful going forward.

We have talked in private to Macedonian officials that we need to end these negotiations. We will continue to do so.

U.M.D is a traitorous organization, and very two faced at that.

Here is the OFFICIAL U.M.D position:

1. Membership to the E.U and NATO should by the HIGHEST PRIORITY.
2. NEGOTIATING our Macedonian Nationality, is NECESSARY for gaining membership.

Compare and contrast this UMD policy to its above statement of 'no name change'.

They are slippery, but its all there in black and white.

I don't trust them.

[Rogi]

Eh? I'm not sure I see how you add 2 and 2 to equal 5?

The fact is, in order to join the EU and NATO, in the current climate, requires us to negotiate and potentially change our name. That's the fact. We all disagree with that and know it is wrong and unjust, but it still remains the fact. It is unfortunately true that to join EU/NATO, we currently must negotiate our name and identity.

So the question is should we want to join these organisations, in the current climate, given the above requirement? Should we negotiate? The answer is an absolute NO. From UMD, from everyone involved in UMD, from the grassroots members to the Board and in fact to the wider and entire Macedonian diaspora.

I can tell you that inside UMD the discussions are on how to find a way to change things (the current political climate on the international scene) so that negotiations and a name change is not required of us (i.e. effect of Lisbon treaty for EU, reforms in NATO, etc). That's the UMD current strategy and approach.

If that is not possible and we have exhausted our efforts (and we have to try), the plan B is to work on analysis for coming up and presenting the Government with an alternate strategy for Macedonia (i.e. non-aligned nations, BRIC, and other trade and economic avenues via preferential trade agreements, etc). We have already discussed this intensively.

In an ideal world, Macedonia should join EU/NATO based on its merit and these organisations should not require anything more of us. Unfortunately that's not going to happen at the moment, these organisations are allowing the anti-Macedonian policies from Greece and not only condoning them, but enforcing them. If we can't find a way to make that happen (i.e. the only requirements to be the reforms needed, nothing to do with our name and identity) then we need to seek alternative directions for Macedonia's future.

UMD is against these negotiations.

You are not the one who can state UMD's official position, only UMD can state it's official position, as it has many times, and it's official position is opposite to what you have written.

Though I have to say I disagree with his statement about too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric coming from Macedonia. I completely support what the Government is doing in this field, and saying it is 'too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric' is a completely innaccurate depiction of what is happening in Macedonia. As I said in a private email to fellow UMD Board Members, it is only the "Alexander the Great" statue and highway, etc which is getting media attention because it happens to be a forced contentious issue, yet nobody is raising the same alarms about the statues of other Macedonian historical figures, though those statues are far more numerous (i.e. 15:1) and by accepting this 'nationalist rhetoric' argument, we are fighting on Greek terms, not on our own. We are only trying to 'catch up' for all the lost time and there is nothing wrong with what Macedonia is doing at the moment, with its focus on Macedonian heroes.

I also disagree with the notion that Greeks are playing anything to perfection. I think it is us who are pandering more and more and losing ground. We are not following Sun Tzu's suggestion that one should aim higher, in order to reach the real goal (i.e. a bowman aims his arrow higher than his target in order to reach it)

[Soldier of Macedon]

Too much nationalism and the ancient rhetoric from Macedonia have damaged our reputation although we were the losers last April.

Are you ashamed of Macedonia's heritage Mr. Mitreski? Circumstances have driven our current state and behaviour, any less nationalism and the world will say, "hey, look, their own history means little to them, why would adding a prefix to the name of the state matter".......

Would you prefer Medieval rhetoric? 19th/20th century VMRO rhetoric? Right about now, Macedonians need to be proud and aware of their history and achievements throughout, not allow some 1920's refugee from Turkey or some European 'expert' the right to negate our identity.

I don't see how the Greeks are playing it "to perfection", they are merely in a protected position right now because of their membership in these racist organisations that our leaders want Macedonia to be a part of, their actions have been nothing short of a disgrace and their style of politics has got them nowhere so far. 17 years and no deal - Perfection? I don't think so.

[Risto the Great]

I don't see how the Greeks are playing it "to perfection", they are merely in a protected position right now because of their membership in these racist organisations that our leaders want Macedonia to be a part of, their actions have been nothing short of a disgrace and their style of politics has got them nowhere so far. 17 years and no deal - Perfection? I don't think so.

Unless by perfection he means the Greeks are promoting "too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric" in which case ... they seem to be playing with something to perfection.

Dear UMD, please commit to a "Macedonian Cause" because if your vision of Macedonia is a modern nation constructed in a similar fashion to the USA then you have committed a gross act of ignorance in relation to our identity.

[Pelister]

Unless by perfection he means the Greeks are promoting "too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric" in which case ... they seem to be playing with something to perfection.

Dear UMD, please commit to a "Macedonian Cause" because if your vision of Macedonia is a modern nation constructed in a similar fashion to the USA then you have committed a gross act of ignorance in relation to our identity.

I am certain their "Vision" of Macedonia is a along the Swiss lines. A State not based on any single nationality.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonia should always remain as the homeland and the nation-state of the Macedonian people and language as a priority, with full rights to minorities. However, the Swiss model has no place in Macedonia, nor has the other extreme, which is the Greek model. Pelister, what would suggest that the UMD are leaning towards such an idea?

[Pelister]

Macedonia should always remain as the homeland and the nation-state of the Macedonian people and language as a priority, with full rights to minorities. However, the Swiss model has no place in Macedonia, nor has the other extreme, which is the Greek model. Pelister, what would suggest that the UMD are leaning towards such an idea?

Let me share some thoughts.

I while ago some members of UMD were trying to define the "Macedonian Nationality" retrospectively. They had already forumulated their definition, and began looking for historical evidence to represent the work.

Attention was drawn to a single line in the Krushevo Manifesto, which would be used as the basis of this UMD definition of our 'nationality'. Its implication was that Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs and Bulgarians, could be Macedonians too. I thought at the time that this was unacceptable, that a single line could not possibly define a struggle that preceeded it by at least 50 years, and proceeded it by 50, where it was only Macedonians fighting - the irony was only sharpened when you consider that our demise was entirely at the hands of Albanians, Turks, Greeks and Bulgarians.

I found the exercise to be reductionist, and historically speaking, took the focus off the 999 times out of a 1000 - it was a movement by ethnic Macedonians, for Macedonia only.

I was certain there was some distortion going on, but you know these things seem right at the time.

But it was too reminiscent of the kind of "tinkering" UMD seem to advocate with our identity.

The fact is that Meto has just advocated a name change, very publicly. UMD still believe that "membership" is the prize. Now, I recieve a letter informing me that UMD shares the opinion of Nimetz that the negotiations are necessary.

What this demonstrates I believe is that their "politics" is becoming increasingly untenable, and the cracks are beginning to appear.

UMD were happy to issue a statement that they don't accept a name change, but ask them if they are prepared to do the same for the negotiations (EVEN THOUGH IT IS OUR IDENTITY ON THE LINE !) ?

UMD are amateurs who have eyes only for the E.U and NATO, and believe that negotiating our Macedonian Nationality IS NECESSARY to gain membership. They are drunk on a fantasy - "membership" cannot be justified in any way when it is our historical identity at stake. But UMD would not cross that line.

UMD will hide behind the Macedonian government, and "accept" whatever they decide, regardless of its illegality or what it means for our soveriegnty and our rights.

Given all the givens, their short hand definition of a historic "Macedonian Nationality" that includes Albanians, Vlach, Greeks and Bulgarians ... as a general rule to define the historic Macedonian Nationality leads us to only one place - multiple Macedonian Nationalies, hence the Swiss model. How does this embody the memory of a past history of suffering, invasion, colonization, dispossesion and atrocities ? It doesn't.

p.s

Statehood is the highest expression of our Macedonian Nationality, specifically the name of our State. Take the name away as an expression of our historic and cultural identity (Macedonian), and there is no formal Macedonian Nationality in the world of nations.