Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Volk]

Working as a troll for this forum doesn't pay much.

But since you are a mental midget, maybe you could enlighten me as to why Gruevski is lobbying other countries to recognize us by our constitutional name. Why are we putting up a statue of Alexander in Macedonia square. Note that it is Macedonia square not Fyrom as you would like it.

Ljubanec, let me save you a 20 page debate, you will find Tom does not answer questions, only asks them...

[Soldier of Macedon]

I assume that Gruevski is bluffing and keeping the spotlight on the name issue, but since we don't know what is going on I can't say weather he is selling us out or not.

If you can't say either way, why expect for your assumption to prevail over those that don't agree with what Gruevski is doing? What do you mean 'bluffing' - who is he trying to bluff, the Greeks? Or the Macedonians? Are you happy for Gruevski to keep 'bluffing' while the Macedonians continue to be degraded by a name agreed to by his predecessors?

[Vangelovski]

Ljubanec, let me save you a 20 page debate, you will find Tom does not answer questions, only asks them...

Just because you did not understand the answers, it does not mean those questions were not addressed.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ljubanec, let me save you a 20 page debate, you will find Tom does not answer questions, only asks them...

Is this another whinge by someone that cannot produce any credible responses to what has been put forth to them? I mean, have a look at yourselves, you still continue to argue in favour of Gruevski while the man is negotiating our identity with Greece.

What is he negotiating?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

ANYONE willing to continue this ethnic cleansing process is a dusman za Makedoncite!

[Big Bad Sven]

None of us are happy about being accepted into the UN under the acronym. If any of you read geography schoolbooks or maps during the 90's You would have seen the words F.Y.R.O.M. or Yugoslavia written over Macedonia. In some cases you might have seen FYR Macedonia.

There are many of you posting here claiming that Gruevski is a traitor and that he has sold out Macedonia, that the politicians had already agreed to change our name. I believe that lack of transparency by Macedonia and Athens has led to this. One of you even suggested raping and killing Gruevski's wife and daughter.

How many of you would suggest leaving the UN and all other organizations that refer to us by that acronym; OSCE, WTO,CEFTA, and WHO? We have non political organizations like FIFA and Eurovision that call us by this interim name and not Macedonia. Are you saying that we should leave these organizations as well? (I'll agree to Eurovision, they suck!)

If you guys do not realize that we are in a better position now then we were back in 91, then I don't know what to say

As Vangelovski has already said, it was better in 1991. We were still reoffered to as Macedonia and were not slaves to the Albanian minority and controlled/bullied around by the west.

Macedonians actually had a bit of self-belief and pride about them. I remember in the 90’s when there was talk of shiptars starting something every Macedonian would boast that the shiptars would be beaten in 30 minutes. Now the mere thought of having another “civil war” with the shiptars makes Macedonians nervous, they feel weak and that they cant fight back because “America” will “fight” Macedonia again, they feel trapped, and cant do nothing against shiptar bullying and terrorism. Basically slaves in their own countries.

Back then macedonians used to joke about Bulgaria and how poor the country was and its people were “uncultured”, today young Macedonians flock to Bulgaria for “better” opportunities and because they are supposedly more “cultured” then Macedonians, all for the price of saying you are Bulgarian and getting a Bulgarian passport.

The only real improvement today is that more tourists come to ohrid, and Pivofest has become a huge tourist attraction for serbs, HOORAY!!

[Big Bad Sven]

Why are we putting up a statue of Alexander in Macedonia square. Note that it is Macedonia square not Fyrom as you would like it.

Nikola Gruevski should be a comedian. He is the jerry seinfield of macedonia that bloke.

He first puts up MUCH needed statues of great macedonian heroes, and then starts putting up statues of albanian heroes and also financing and approving the new "skanderbeg square" in Skopje, all with albanian flags and statues. I forgot to mention he used 1 million euros, tax money from macedonians:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=81197#post81197

[Big Bad Sven]

Is this another whinge by someone that cannot produce any credible responses to what has been put forth to them? I mean, have a look at yourselves, you still continue to argue in favour of Gruevski while the man is negotiating our identity with Greece.

What is he negotiating?

Exactly.

The people who are supporting Gruevski I believe think he is still in the “negotiations” because he wants to show the “international community” that we are the “good guys” and willing to change our name/identity, yet know grease will never agree to a “reasonable” suggestion. Basically they think Gruevski is “buying” time and hoping everything will get better one day, supposedly when more countries recognize us. I think this is bullshit but for the sake of the argument I will look at the other “side”

The thing is, if this is true, then it’s a pretty stupid tactic, because it paints a picture to the international community that we Macedonians are happy to throw away our name and identity, so that we can join meaningless organisations such as NATO and the EU. It basically makes us look very cheap and that we don’t really care about our name/identity. It makes us look like push overs and yes men, and no one respects push-overs.
Gruevski is telling the world that we are willing to change our identity and name, and he MAY be “buying us time”, but what happens when he leaves and we elect a politician who is the next crvenovski or Gieorgievski? Thanks to Gruevski practically doing the hard work and getting us so close to changing our name, it will only take one turncoat a stroke of a pen to change the name. Better to eliminate ANY threat of a name change ASAP I say, not flirt with danger as what Gruevski is doing.

If this is the scenario, then to me it seems like Gruevski is doing nothing more then wasting time and resources, and going the “easy way” out, a politician that cant make the hard choices and not making any real progress. We might as well get some one else and not waste any more time.

[Vangelovski]

The people who are supporting Gruevski I believe think he is still in the “negotiations” because he wants to show the “international community” that we are the “good guys” and willing to change our name/identity, yet know grease will never agree to a “reasonable” suggestion. Basically they think Gruevski is “buying” time and hoping everything will get better one day, supposedly when more countries recognize us. I

BBS,

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. This is exactly the cheap political spin that successive Macedonian Governments have tried to sell to the Macedonian people. The idiotic notion of "wise" politicians "playing the game". For those that believe this pathetic rubbish, it reflects more on their shallow and immature understanding of history, politics and natural law than anything else.

[Ljubanec]

Ljubanec, let me save you a 20 page debate, you will find Tom does not answer questions, only asks them...

I do agree with him that we should quit the negotiations with Greece though. They will not get us anywhere. Hearing the vitriolic comments on this forum about Gruevski is sad.

[Vangelovski]

I do agree with him that we should quit the negotiations with Greece though. They will not get us anywhere. Hearing the vitriolic comments on this forum about Gruevski is sad.

You may want to point out which comments about Gruevski you feel are "vitriolic" and WHY. Ignoring Gruevski's past and present actions and then calling any criticism of Gruevski as "vitriolic" only reflects on your uninformed views and unsubstantiated assumptions.

[Pelister]

Is this another whinge by someone that cannot produce any credible responses to what has been put forth to them? I mean, have a look at yourselves, you still continue to argue in favour of Gruevski while the man is negotiating our identity with Greece.

What is he negotiating?

He has never made that clear, to anyone. The Macedonian people have been left in the dark once again.

It can now be said that Gruevski has been meddling and interfering with our historical and political identity, from the beginning. That is what the negotiation 'process' is there for and because he is the only one who can make the decision to stop it, Gruevski's intentions to change our name means that someone has to call for his removal, immediately.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ljubanec, honestly mate, why are you so sympathetic to Gruevski, when he is STILL negotiating our identity with foreigners? Help me understand your logic. What did you mean by 'bluffing'?

[Makedonetz]

Greek PM not optimistic over swift name settlement

Athens, 25 January 2011 (MIA) - Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou told MPs on Monday he was not optimistic over an immediate settlement of the name row.

"I am not an optimist over the prospects for swift settlement of the name dispute with fYRoM. The other side refuses to accept a name with geographical qualifier for all uses. The Greek positions and initiatives in the issue are stable and constant. We will not stop in our efforts to find a mutually acceptable solution. We have a national strategy and clearly drawn red lines", said Papandreou while presenting the country's foreign-policy objectives.

Opposition leader Andonis Samaras also referred to the "red lines", which were set at the 2008 NATO Summit in Bucharest.

"Greece has said it favors a name for all uses without an ethnic qualifier as solution to the name row, and put a veto on its NATO and EU accession, which was acknowledged by our partners", added Samaras.

Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas reacted to the mentioning of word "veto".

"I urge you to refrain from using this term in the dispute with fYRoM. As much as it sounds patriotic, the use of the word harms our interests in the suit before the Hague-based International Court of Justice", stressed Droutsas.

He said Samaras should not sacrifice national interests for the sake of partisan support and wondered where was the current opposition leader when the United States recognized Macedonia under the constitutional name. ik/fd/11:03

Shows how much greece wants to work with us refering to us as this!

"I am not an optimist over the prospects for swift settlement of the name dispute with fYRoM

Samaras must of been hit on the head a few times we never agreed to "their" demands!

"Greece has said it favors a name for all uses without an ethnic qualifier as solution to the name row, and put a veto on its NATO and EU accession, which was acknowledged by our partners", added Samaras.

Im happy the talks broke down, i hope Macedonia ends this fiasco once and for all!

[MacoLionHeartSun]

Next headlines should read Macedonia refuses to participate with any related name row settlement talks with Greece regarding its conditional name The Republic of Macedonia.