Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

Ke vidime…ama ako chastis za priznavajneto na Republika Makedonia eden den ke go spomnis Ivanov I Gruevski ili ne.

Ozimak,

I think you should rename yourself merry-go-round. Do I need to explain why Gruevski and Ivanov are traitors? Do you have amnesia? Is the name the only issue by which they should be judged on their performance and political views?

[Vangelovski]

RTG if your lawyer said you could win these points...90 percent of what you want...but the last few are dubious to impossible and pursuing them would jeopardise all the first points would you have him shot too…pushing for unification at this time is not possible particularly without a current treaty to back this up.

Are you now smoking Prolet's stash? What are you on about?

[George S.]

AOzimak i hope you have read that speech by gruevski which confirms everything that they are going to compromise.Have you read the bs that they will not change the name but they are willing to compromise to find a mutually acceptable name acceptable to athens.Why do you think ozimak the macedonian politicians were called to a secret meeting to discuss the name issue in athens.It's an open & shut case you might as well start calling them traitors of the highest order.

[Prolet]

oh Come On Vangelovski i thought we already went through this?

Enough of your Kleveti, pick a side and tell us who you're supporting otherwise you're nothing more then a plukach. If you dont like Gjorgje Ivanov and Nikola Gruevski then who do you support? Sestra Ljube or Ljubco Georgievski? If you think there is somebody better then Gruevski and Ivanov by all means lets hear who they are and what have they done for our country.

[Vangelovski]

oh Come On Vangelovski i thought we already went through this?

Enough of your Kleveti, pick a side and tell us who you're supporting otherwise you're nothing more then a plukach. If you dont like Gjorgje Ivanov and Nikola Gruevski then who do you support? Sestra Ljube or Ljubco Georgievski? If you think there is somebody better then Gruevski and Ivanov by all means lets hear who they are and what have they done for our country.

Cheech,

Why on earth would any critical thinking Macedonian support any of them? What "sides" are you talking about? What criteria did you use to differentiate between one set of traitors and another?

More importantly, how many bongs have you smoked today?

[Volk]

I am not so sceptical..... Why even bother lobbying Syria, Zimbabwe and just recently Bolivia? Though Syria was practically given to us by Greece for conducting a joint combat exercise with Israel, but it still takes effort and $$ to get these countries to recognize us. Why bother with lobbying? It doesn't make sense to say it is a foregone conclusion.

Actually it would be interesting to note how many nations recognized Macedonia under branko.

I love it how people ignored your post as it is very relevant.

One mite also add, why take greece to the ICJ if it was going to capitulate?why has it not done so yet?

[Vangelovski]

One mite also add, why take greece to the ICJ if it was going to capitulate?why has it not done so yet?

Its been two years and you have had the whole ICJ fiasco explained to you numerous times. How is it you still do not understand it?

[MHRMI]

Does anyone have any emails addresses of ivanov & gruevski so that we can all tell them off ??

Nikola Gruevski - [email protected]

More government contact info is on the Our Name is Macedonia webpage and we'll be adding more as we get them.

https://www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia

Thanks to MTO for all the support.

This is the most crucial issue facing Macedonia and Macedonians. How can you help?

• Contact Macedonian government officials and demand an immediate end to the negotiations. Contact information is on the Our Name is Macedonia webpage.
• Sign on to the campaign, as an individual or organization, by visiting www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia
• Every Macedonian website should have an Our Name is Macedonia banner - www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia/web
• Promote the campaign in Macedonian communities worldwide. For ad campaign posters or more information, please contact us.
• Demand support from the international community. We will provide contact information for government officials and media.
• Make a donation. Join the MHRMI Human Rights Fund (www.mhrmi.org/donation.asp) or the AMHRC Minorities Support Fund (www.macedonianhr.org.au/03getinvolved)

[Volk]

Its been two years and you have had the whole ICJ fiasco explained to you numerous times. How is it you still do not understand it?

Its a piece of a puzzle, please do not pretent to understand yourself becuause you have been proven wrong on many occasions.

Fact of the matter is, only Gruevski himself knows and he has been walking a tight rope the whole time.He has said things for both domestic and IC consumption.

I have a question for you Tom, what does Macedonia stand to gain from capitulation? Why would it do so, particularly with the shape of the EU? Why has it been winking to NATO alternatives, and Eastern nations like Russia, China and Israel? do you know why?

[fyrOM]

Are you now smoking Prolet's stash? What are you on about?

Prolet and I cant even agree on what beer to drink…he Skopsko I Zlato Rog…let alone whatever he smokes or not.

RTG was saying…Post019
In diplomatic terms, he is saying Macedonia will not be a winner in this process. If I was going to recruit a leader for my army and he said something like this, I would have him shot.

Not all battles are winnable totally so should a subordinate or hired lawyer be shot if being frank with you said you could win 90 percent of what you want but winning everything is impossible.

Winning the recognition of the name identity and language is the core issue for Macedonia. Achieving unity is the ultimate end but unattainable at this time. A frank admission of this by your representative may disappoint or even enrage you but not necessarily grounds for shooting someone.

[fyrOM]

Prolet and I have a lot of differences but one thing we do concur on…although we each have a slightly different take…is Ivanov and Gruevski will not sell the 1. Name 2. Identity 3. Language. It doesn’t mean there isn’t more that they could want nor deserve but everything outside these 3 core points is a Dancing Boris and should be taken with a grain of salt…or vodka…or rakija. Even Boris sat on the outside of a tank in the front lines and ordered the shelling of the Russian parliament…remember.
It might be humiliating for our two bears to go dancing but it shows their resolve…whatever it takes…for the core 3 points ofcourse.

See
Macedonian Truth Forum > News and Politics > Macedonia ready to iron differences with Greece in European manner, says president
Post003
Post009

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5072

And
Macedonian Truth Forum > General Discussions > PM Gruevski Speaks
Post013

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5083&page=2

For an extrapolation of the points but in summery

Saying you are at a total impasse and all negotiation are futile and must end automatically puts the question then what are you going to do next. This is not a question Macedonia wants to answer publicly too soon.

The possibility of threats openly and subversively to country and politician are possible ie if you say you will do nothing then accidentally out with the old and in with the new who will do anything.

The modernisation of the country not only improves the country and the lives of its citizens but also diminishes the likelihood of internal unrest.

A modern stable country is inviting to foreign investors…usually large companies…who would have much to loose if foreign governments want to knockdown Macedonia which these big foreign businesses would put pressure on their governments to back off or take a different approach.

Globtrotting and building relations with everyone is crucial. Besides the fact generally Macedonians don’t go out of their way to find enemies like it or not in the un every vote counts and the more friends you have not only makes for a more peaceful existence but also a more secure one.

Having good relations with key players like China and Turkey and others is a strength.

Having more countries recognise RoM is like people in a room arguing about an event the more people on your side strengthens your argument. If you are on the downside but are right you need to have some savoir-faire to garner support and come up with exceptionally good facts to turn the tide. If you are on the upside with the numbers those knowingly supporting a lie are going to start looking stupid and are going to squirm to find a solution…unless they’re French ofcourse because they just don’t give an F about anybody…a quality I kind of perversely admire…but the rest will feign not being fully aware and push for a compromise generously in your favour.

Where to compromise and where to hold your ground is also a talent…being pigheaded and prepared to cut your nose to spite your face is a recipe for disaster as is the ramifications of compromising too soon or too much but also another key point is to appear gracious to allow the other to save some face and so not to force them to dig in out of extreme embarrassment. Knowing what you can win as apposed to what is right but have no ground…other than maybe moral…to stand on is a good guide. Achieving unification at this time is difficult and paved with much resistance…not only in Greece but also the other parts and their supporters…ultimately the west will not give up their buffer zone…yet by appearing to back down on this point saves face for the supporters of the liar and creates a wedge to be exploited at a later time while achieving most of your aims. This cannot be seen as an act of a traitor.

[George S.]

Thanks NHRMI your a life saver .I'm going to email them & any responses we can post in mto.

[fyrOM]

It will be an interesting year in 2011.

Macedonia and Greece will face in the Hague on March 21

http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=03431379C9F7DB4BB4B5F36DEB379403

Macedonia and Greece on March 21 will face the International Court of Justice in The Hague. Then it is scheduled oral hearing on the complaint of Macedonia against Greece for violating the Temporary bilateral agreement with obstruction of Macedonian accession to NATO Summit in Bucharest.
Thus, the process enters a crucial phase and the verdict is expected to be taken up for six months or until the end of the year.
As conveyed TV Telma, the date has not yet been officially confirmed by the Court, but according to Greek sources, the hearing will last for two weeks starting March 21, when both sides will elaborate its arguments.
Professor of International Law Deskoska Tony, who is engaged in the legal team before the Court in The Hague, says the lawsuit is not related to negotiations on name dispute, but if the verdict be in favor of Macedonia will mean greater political capital.
- We have a dispute with NATO, but we dispute dispute with Greece and subject to debate is the behavior of Greece. But in political terms this decision will impact the return to Greece of the Interim Agreement, considered Deskoska.
Greek blockade in the European Union will be another argument, despite the veto at the NATO summit in Bucharest.
- In view of possible membership in the European Union once again we are confronted with Greek opposition and this will be part of the hearing before the court, adds Deskoska.
One of the primary goals of filing a lawsuit is to achieve nagodba, says professor of international law.
- Macedonia is not to get a verdict before the International Court of Justice for a verdict, but the EU and NATO. Open road and open up possibilities that would be najposkuvana variant Deskoska said.
Macedonia has filed a lawsuit against Greece at the Court at The Hague on November 17, 2008 stating that Athens blocking Macedonia's membership of NATO violated Article 11 of Temporary bilateral agreement in 1995. The International Court of Justice is required to bring Greece to honor its obligations under the Interim Agreement, which binds the two countries.
Athens announced that his defense is based that the Bucharest Summit there was no veto, but the consensus among the members of Macedonia's accession to the Alliance to be postponed until resolution of the dispute. Greece argued that there are counter-arguments that will try to prove that Macedonia was the party violated the Interim Accord. Judgments brings the Court are final and legally binding, but their implementation is responsible and respect the Security Council of UN.

[Vangelovski]

Its a piece of a puzzle, please do not pretent to understand yourself becuause you have been proven wrong on many occasions.

Fact of the matter is, only Gruevski himself knows and he has been walking a tight rope the whole time.He has said things for both domestic and IC consumption.

I have a question for you Tom, what does Macedonia stand to gain from capitulation? Why would it do so, particularly with the shape of the EU? Why has it been winking to NATO alternatives, and Eastern nations like Russia, China and Israel? do you know why?

Just because you clearly do not understand a simple document, you should not console yourself by pretending others don't either.

Macedonia capitulated by agreeing to the Interim Accord. Now it is attempting to ENFORCE the Accord by making Greece comply with this capitulation. I cannot think of any other example of where an individual, group or state has undertaken a tremendously idiotic endeavour.

[Vangelovski]

Prolet and I cant even agree on what beer to drink…he Skopsko I Zlato Rog…let alone whatever he smokes or not.

RTG was saying…Post019
In diplomatic terms, he is saying Macedonia will not be a winner in this process. If I was going to recruit a leader for my army and he said something like this, I would have him shot.

Not all battles are winnable totally so should a subordinate or hired lawyer be shot if being frank with you said you could win 90 percent of what you want but winning everything is impossible.

Winning the recognition of the name identity and language is the core issue for Macedonia. Achieving unity is the ultimate end but unattainable at this time. A frank admission of this by your representative may disappoint or even enrage you but not necessarily grounds for shooting someone.

What has that got to do with what Ivanov said?