Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

The problem is that you DO NOT have any "logical arguments". Read through the posts on this thread and re-check whether anyone accepts YOUR arguments.

[Bratot]

Bratot, I know I am repeating myself but please refer to the above again. Because you keep putting legal reasons why Macedonians should not reject the interim accord.

Risto,

why are you forcing this obvious fallacy?

This is shameless twisting of my argument.

To cease the IA we need to point out that Article 5 paragraph 1 of this IA is direct violation on Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Right which protect the right for a name- identity.

Our obligations for "settlement of difference" derive from resolutions 817 and 845 of 1993 with our admission in the UN and are in a contrary of Article 103 of the UN Charter:

Article 103 states that members' obligations under the UN Charter override their obligations under any other treaty.

This article specifies that if a contractual norm is contrary to the norm of the United Nations Charter, apply the standards of the Charter of the United Nations.

In this particular case the resolutions are inconsistent with Article 4 of the Charter of the United Nations in paragraph 1 which determine the conditions of membership in UN.

The IA is constructed on the basis of these 2 resolutions, i.e. INVALID.

Ceasing the IA itself will not release us from the obligation given upper, until we anull the both resolutions, which can be done by the ICJ on our demand.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Are you secretly working as UMD's "legal" advisor?

[Bratot]

Classical red herring case, another discrediting tactics by shallow attempt to discredit my arguments by associating me with some other group.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, are you now referring to further obligations to the UN. The same mob that calls us fYrOm (nice GrAffItI style writing) ? Yep, pull out of that one as well.

Here is a story:
Little Goce was riding on his horse one day when his little brother came up to him and said, "quick get of your horse, the Muslim is coming". Goce said: "that is really unfair don't you think?"

Little brother said "But don't you know the Covenant of Omar law as it stands? : (a) The erection or repair of churches and synagogues which did not exist during the pre-Muslim period is prohibited. (b) The Koran is not to be taught to protected subjects. (c) Protected subjects are not to shelter spies. (d) They are not to buy a Muslim slave or maidservant, nor such as were formerly owned by a Muslim. (e) They are not to sell intoxicating liquors to Muslims, nor carcasses of animals not ritually slaughtered, or pork. (f) They are not to employ a Muslim in their service, and in partnerships with non-Muslims they were restricted to the role of the "silent" rather than the trafficking partner. (g) Protected subjects are to honor the Muslims and stand in their presence. They can not deceive or strike them. (h) They are to accommodate Muslim travelers for three days. (i) They are not to prevent anyone from converting to Islam. (j) They are not to resemble Muslims in their clothing or hairdressing. The Jews are to wear yellow clothes, girdles, and hats, the Christians, blue. The girdles were not to be of silk. The color of their shoes was to differ from that of the Muslims. (k) They are not to be called by Muslim names or appellations. (l) Entry into bathhouses is only to be authorized when a special sign was worn on the neck which would distinguish them from Muslims. Special bathhouses are to be built for women so that they would not bathe together with Muslim women. (m) They are forbidden to carry arms. (n) They are not to ride on horses or mules but only on asses, and then on packsaddles without any ornaments, and not on saddles. They are to ride sidesaddle. (o) Their houses are not to be higher than those of the Muslims. (p) Their tombs are not to be higher than those of the Muslims. (q) They are not to raise their voices in their churches or be seen in public with crosses. (r) They are not to be employed as government officials or in any position which would grant them authority over Muslims. (s) The property of the deceased is to belong to the authorities until the heirs proved their right to it according to Islamic law. If there is no heir, the property will be transferred to the authorities."

Goce said: "I reject this and am willing to go to war over this if necessary".

I like Goce.
Little brother is nice too, but no good for Macedonia.

[Bratot]

"Clavus clavo eicitur" familiar?

There is also a saying in Macedonian: "so lisicata na lisechki nacin"

[Vangelovski]

Classical red herring case, another discrediting tactics by shallow attempt to discredit my arguments by associating me with some other group.

Bratot,

As a start, you might want to double check what Article 8 of the European Convention for Human Rights actually states.

More importantly, you may want to think about how international law relates to natural law and really, what legitimacy (if any) international law has over sovereign nations.

Finally, I was not literally associating you with UMD, I was sarcastically commenting that YOUR "legal" views are as bad as THEIRS.

[Risto the Great]

Biggus Dickus is the limit of my Latin.
Why don't you write a little story to tell us how you feel?

[Bratot]

Biggus Dickus is the limit of my Latin.
Why don't you write a little story to tell us how you feel?

Then "one nail drives out another" or "fight fire with fire" will do the work for you.

My intention is to discuss the topic. I'm not sure about yours.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Why fight fire with fire when you can just put it out with water? Or rip a nail out with a claw hammer?

[Jankovska]

Jankovska
I read what you wrote here and thought about it and where this lack pride might stem from, my opinion is that it is influenced to a large degree by the lack of identity, moreso the attack on our identity. so I did a search on the definition of identity, it makes for interesting reading and may provide an insight into where this "lack of pride" comes from.....
"
furfuraceous disport jugal schadenfreude identity - 6 dictionary results
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Dictionary.com

i·den·ti·ty   /aɪˈdɛntɪti, ɪˈdɛn-/ Show Spelled
[ahy-den-ti-tee, ih-den-] Show IPA

–noun, plural -ties.
1. the state or fact of remaining the same one or ones, as under varying aspects or conditions: The identity of the fingerprints on the gun with those on file provided evidence that he was the killer.
2. the condition of being oneself or itself, and not another: He doubted his own identity.
3. condition or character as to who a person or what a thing is: a case of mistaken identity.
4. the state or fact of being the same one as described.
5. the sense of self, providing sameness and continuity in personality over time and sometimes disturbed in mental illnesses, as schizophrenia.
6. exact likeness in nature or qualities: an identity of interests.
7. an instance or point of sameness or likeness: to mistake resemblances for identities.
8. Logic . an assertion that two terms refer to the same thing.
9. Mathematics .
a. an equation that is valid for all values of its variables.
b. Also called identity element, unit element, unity. an element in a set such that the element operating on any other element of the set leaves the second element unchanged.
c. the property of a function or map such that each element is mapped into itself.
d. the function or map itself.
10. Australian Informal . an interesting, famous, or eccentric resident, usually of long standing in a community.

Your thoughts?

I agree totaly. The problem is we live in a very very bitchy world and people crack, that is what Greece and Co have been trying to do, make us crack. The communisam didn't help either and lives are not easy. People's lives have been made too hard for them to sit and think about their identity but things are changing, people are waking up. Reality has always been cruel to Macedonia, people have been striped of everything, they are waking up now but it is a slow process. you are totaly right, 100%. They never got the chance and if they don't wake up soon things are gonna get harder. But even tho I am miserable most of the time i still have faith that they will see EU for what it is and will be proud Macedonians coz there isn't a name in the world that I'd rather carry. I am so proud, I sing the name Macedonia when I speak to people, I pray for that day to come for all. I do hope the Macedonians wake up and realise who they are, take that and cherish it forever.

[Vangelovski]

Jankovska,

Macedonians have had relatively easy lives in comparison to many others in Africa, the Middle East and Asia who faced much more difficult challenges but never lost their resolve for freedom. Hardship, while understandable, is not really an excuse.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

As a start, you might want to double check what Article 8 of the European Convention for Human Rights actually states.

I think you might need help in the interpretation of it.

More importantly, you may want to think about how international law relates to natural law and really, what legitimacy (if any) international law has over sovereign nations.

Why don't you show us how will you employ the natural law.

Through what?

Finally, I was not literally associating you with UMD, I was sarcastically commenting that YOUR "legal" views are as bad as THEIRS.

That's exactly what I described, it's also called 'assosiation' fallacy, an attempt to link my with the views of someone else.
This is actually your favourite tactic.

[makedonche]

Jankovska
The constant attack on our identity, religion, political structure from external sources (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians, UN, NATO, EU) continually causes identity problems and doesn't allow the ordinary Macedonian to be "oneself" or the country to be "itself", they have very cleverly implimented a plan of denationalisation and regular interference in our religious institutions, political institutions, educational insitiutions and social fabric, and continue to do so to this very day. We in the diaspora are very fortunate to be able to stand back and view this from a distance and from a perspective of certain objectivity. The most difficult part for me is watching this happen and not being able to do enough constructively to help the Macedonians in the Republic. Having said that the Macedonians in the Republic need to do more to help themselves, it seems like there is too much willingness to accept what is being handed out, there doesn't seem to be enough free will to "be oneself" or for the country to "be itself", your thoughts?

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Why fight fire with fire when you can just put it out with water? Or rip a nail out with a claw hammer?

We came here to discuss the possible solutions.

If our both standpoints can be useful why should we limit our potential to defend ourselfs?


I said earlier that I will accept any other valid and good suggestons as well, I don't hold exclusivity on the possible solutions.