Mustafa Kemal Atat�rk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Agamoi Thytai]

Here they are;

YouTube - Χοροί της Καππαδοκίας - " Κάλενιν - Kalenin "

YouTube - O HOROS TON SPATHION(dance of the swords) from Cappadocia

YouTube - The dance LEILALOUM from Cappadocia

YouTube - Χοροί της Καππαδοκίας - " Βάρα βάρα - Κόνιαλι "

YouTube - KAPPADOKIA # 1


Are these people looking like Greeks to you? If these are true Greeks then who are the rest of Greeks? Ethiopian immigrants? Cuz the difference between them is THAT big. Haha

These people are from Cappadocia,they are not Karamanlides!Cappadocians were Greek-speaking people,no relation to Karamanlides.They spoke a specific Greek dialect,though influenced by Turkish but Greek nevertheless:

http://books.google.com/books?id=sgUOAAAAYAAJ&q=cappadocian+dialect&dq=cappadocian+dialect&hl=el&ei=ECr4TO_gFJKp8QPqsYH5Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA

http://books.google.com/books?id=b55B1J7I99AC&pg=PA94&dq=cappadocian+dialect&hl=el&ei=ECr4TO_gFJKp8QPqsYH5Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cappadocian%20&f=false

However it's strange that a Turk confuses Karamania with Cappadocia!

[Agamoi Thytai]

Besides that, there are several records of central Anatolian Turks, mainly Karamanlides being converted as christians in the Byzantine archives of 13th century. They specifically noted that the Turks who have recently been converted to christianity in central Anatolia in late 13th century. They call them as Tourkopoulos.

That's a lie of Turkish propaganda!Such records don't exist!Why don't you show any link?

Also, even today, Karamanlides in Greece exhibits medieval Turkish customs, habits, typical central Anatolian clothing, dances etc.

Your compatriot Ottoman said William Wallace was a Scotsman although he spoke nothing but English.So why couldn't Karamanlides be of Greek origin?

Look for the Karamanlides videos from Greece. In their cultural gatherings, they sing and speak Turkish. I have to remind you that the Karamanlides are allowed to organize their own cultural festivals in Greece only after 1980s. So it`s actually unbelievable that they managed to preserve their true customs under 70+ years assimilation and oppression.

Imagine how unbelievable is the fact that these Muslim Pontians in Turkey managed to preserve their language and customs afte so many centuries they've converted to Islam!

The Greek oppression upon them was so strict. I watched some documents about them and older Karamanlides Turks says that in 1930s, when they recently settled to Greece, Greek police was secretly sneaking under their window to listen if they speak Turkish in their homes and punish them if they hear them speak Turkish.

Greeks in Turkey were not treated better:

...and, according to traditions handed down in the old Greek families, any one heard speaking Greek in the public streets had his tongue plucked out.

http://www.archive.org/stream/livingage23projgoog#page/n468/mode/1up/search/plucked

In many parts of the interior Greeks and other people were forbidden to speak in their native tongue and were obliged to use Turkish

http://www.archive.org/stream/leaveninglevant00greegoog#page/n40/mode/1up/search/forbidden

So, we have Byzantine records for the converted Turks to christianity but appereanty there are no records of Greeks being converted as muslims in Byzantine archives as today`s Greeks claims. You know, they say that the Turks in Anatolia are muslimized Greeks!! just like indigen and this Greek guy claimed here;

I was talking only about some Turks of the Black Sea (Pontos) region,not all of Anatolia.We don't need any Byzantine archives because it was actually one of them,a Turkish citizen from that region who stated that,in a Turkish newspaper

[Onur]

Also, even today, Karamanlides in Greece exhibits medieval Turkish customs, habits, typical central Anatolian clothing, dances etc. Look for the Karamanlides videos from Greece. In their cultural gatherings, they sing and speak Turkish.

Here they are;

YouTube - Χοροί της Καππαδοκίας - " Κάλενιν - Kalenin "

YouTube - O HOROS TON SPATHION(dance of the swords) from Cappadocia

YouTube - The dance LEILALOUM from Cappadocia

YouTube - Χοροί της Καππαδοκίας - " Βάρα βάρα - Κόνιαλι "

YouTube - KAPPADOKIA # 1


Are these people looking like Greeks to you? If these are true Greeks then who are the rest of Greeks? Ethiopian immigrants? Cuz the difference between them is THAT big. Haha

[Bratot]

Besides that, there are several records of central Anatolian Turks, mainly Karamanlides being converted as christians in the Byzantine archives of 13th century. They specifically noted that the Turks who have recently been converted to christianity in central Anatolia in late 13th century. They call them as Tourkopoulos.

Also, even today, Karamanlides in Greece exhibits medieval Turkish customs, habits, typical central Anatolian clothing, dances etc. Look for the Karamanlides videos from Greece. In their cultural gatherings, they sing and speak Turkish. I have to remind you that the Karamanlides are allowed to organize their own cultural festivals in Greece only after 1980s. So it`s actually unbelievable that they managed to preserve their true customs under 70+ years assimilation and oppression. The Greek oppression upon them was so strict. I watched some documents about them and older Karamanlides Turks says that in 1930s, when they recently settled to Greece, Greek police was secretly sneaking under their window to listen if they speak Turkish in their homes and punish them if they hear them speak Turkish.


So, we have Byzantine records for the converted Turks to christianity but appereanty there are no records of Greeks being converted as muslims in Byzantine archives as today`s Greeks claims. You know, they say that the Turks in Anatolia are muslimized Greeks!! just like indigen and this Greek guy claimed here;

The Making of Greece (part 2) - the forced hellenization- .

[Ottoman]

I really like this.

Janissaries.

Seeing this makes me wanna become one.

[Onur]

The Orthodox Turks didn't speak Greek at all, nor the language is the factor N'1 in denoting one's ethnicity.

Besides that, there are several records of central Anatolian Turks, mainly Karamanlides being converted as christians in the Byzantine archives of 13th century. They specifically noted that the Turks who have recently been converted to christianity in central Anatolia in late 13th century. They call them as Tourkopoulos.

Also, even today, Karamanlides in Greece exhibits medieval Turkish customs, habits, typical central Anatolian clothing, dances etc. Look for the Karamanlides videos from Greece. In their cultural gatherings, they sing and speak Turkish. I have to remind you that the Karamanlides are allowed to organize their own cultural festivals in Greece only after 1980s. So it`s actually unbelievable that they managed to preserve their true customs under 70+ years assimilation and oppression. The Greek oppression upon them was so strict. I watched some documents about them and older Karamanlides Turks says that in 1930s, when they recently settled to Greece, Greek police was secretly sneaking under their window to listen if they speak Turkish in their homes and punish them if they hear them speak Turkish.


So, we have Byzantine records for the converted Turks to christianity but appereanty there are no records of Greeks being converted as muslims in Byzantine archives as today`s Greeks claims. You know, they say that the Turks in Anatolia are muslimized Greeks!! just like indigen and this Greek guy claimed here;

Off course,that's normal considering that thousands,if not millions of Greeks were assimilated by Turks,like these here:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_haber.php?ek=r2&haberno=6772

Ah,and first you have to define what is supposed to be the genuine Turkish look you are refering to?Is it this one:

http://www.sport.gr/files/news/2009-06-17/1245254501_turkoglou_250x.jpg

Maybe this?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_0X18t-8ZkNM/S3V09iYoaxI/AAAAAAAACAM/TStwW7ZiKcE/Ozgur13.jpg

Or these?

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/420077/ph03b.jpg

http://im.in.com/media/download/wallpapers/2009/May/turkish_girls_euro_2008_420x315.jpg

[Agamoi Thytai]

� Big Greek Lie #2
"The Koine Language is Greek"
(Modern Greeks are victims of their own making)

Well if Koine is not Greek then Greek is the same with Chinese!Sorry,but Risto Stefov is not a qualified linguist and I can't imagine any such taking seriously his theory.He "proved" that Koine is not Greek comparing 5-6 words!That's indeed a novelty in linguistics!He also confuses Koine with Attic.What Alexander and before him Philip used in their court was Attic,Koine evolved much later in Hellenistic time with the expansion of the Greek-speaking area through the establishment of the Hellenistic kingdoms:

http://books.google.com/books?id=f__JVG7TGKsC&pg=PA80

If Koine belongs to all eastern mediterranean nations as he claims,how is it that all other eastern mediterranean people except Greeks can understand not a single word of a Koine text?

[Ottoman]

Modern "Greeks" (orthodox Turks) vs The truth.

Type this in youtube.

[Bratot]

The Orthodox Turks didn't speak Greek at all, nor the language is the factor N'1 in denoting one's ethnicity.

[Agamoi Thytai]

William Wallace also spoke English, does this make him an Englishman? No he was a Scotsman.

Good remark,Ottoman.Now you should tell this to Onur and your Macedonian friends who say the Turkish-speaking Greeks of Asia Minor are pure Turks.And if you don't mind,why do you care about ancient Macedonians and their language?

[Agamoi Thytai]

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

Daskale,here is a short list of intellectuals and other distinguished people who called themselves Hellenes or Graikoi long before 1832
See pages 94-97 from that book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vce6EJAcHA4C&pg=PA97

1)The emperor of the Nicaen kingdom Theodoros Laskaris in 13th century,page 97.
2)His father and predecessor John Vatatzes in 1237,page 96.
3)The philosopher Theodore Metochites,1292 page 96.
4)Patriarch Germanos II,pages 95-96.
5)Emperor Michael Palaeologos,13th century.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IyHsNpkYkdgC&pg=PA116

6)The philosopher George Gemistos or Plethon in 15th century:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jEa8Iv5wJ0IC&pg=PA77

7)Nicholas Cabasilas,14th century theologian,pages 20 and 21 of that book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8jA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA20

8)Athanasios Lepenthrenos,14th century Cypriot scholar,page 21.
9)Demetrios Kydones,14th century Cretan theologian,page 21.
10)John Argyropoulos,15th century scholar,pages 21 and 22.
11)George Gennadius Scholarius,the first Patriarch after the Ottoman conquest,page 22.Even though he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of its connotations with paganism he nevertheless recognized that he was "a Greek by birth".
12)Lukas Spandonis,15th century Thessalonian nobleman:

http://www.archive.org/stream/travelsinnorthe05leakgoog#page/n252/mode/1up/

13)Andronikos Kallistos,15th century Thessalonian scholar:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lnSmnmL984YC&pg=PA97

14)Georgios Kontaris,17th century scholar from Kozani:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA442

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA235

15)George Zaviras from Siatista,author of the books "Hellenic theater or Nea Hellas consisting the history of all learned Greeks since the fall of the nation" in the last years of 18th century,pages 79 and 80 from that book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=QtRDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79

16)Daniil Filippidis and Grigorios Konstantas,authors of 'Modern Geography" in 1791:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JISd5jZu1mwC&pg=PA50#v=onepage&q=idolaters&f=false

17)Dimitrios Katartzis,18th century scholar.Although he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of religious reasons he pointed out that the people who called themselves Romioi have a strong connection to ancient Greeks:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JISd5jZu1mwC&pg=PA50

18)Theodosius Zygomalas and Symeon Cabasilas,16th century scholars called Greek the language that was spoken by common people,not romeika:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aHrVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA557

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

But Alexander spread Greek language everywhere,not Macedonian.He ordered the Persian youths who were trained along Macedonian soldiers to learn Greek,he ordered the inscription on Cyrus' tomb to be rewritten in Greek.Greek became the lingua franca of Near East only after Alexander's campaigne and thank to Alexander.Before Alexander Aramaic and Persian was the lingua franca in all the territory of the Persian empire.

� Big Greek Lie #2
"The Koine Language is Greek"
(Modern Greeks are victims of their own making)

[Ottoman]

William Wallace also spoke English, does this make him an Englishman? No he was a Scotsman.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.

really??
welcome to the MTO
Macedonian people and Macedonian culture has existed continuously from ancient till modern time. In fact, Macedonian culture influenced the culture of all of its neighbouring people. The Macedonian language has also been existence in its current form for hundreds of years.

Thanks for the wellcome,Julie!
I don't doubt your language exists for centuries,but I was talking only for Greek language and culture,not Macedonian.I didn't question it,so I don't see the need to state it.I also don't believe modern Macedonian language has any relation to ancient Macedonian,(regardles of whether it was a distinct language or a Greek dialect) except from the fact both are Indoeuropean languages.I wont make any linguistic analysis but I will say only this:Modern Macedonian is a satem language while ancient was centum and that's a substantial difference.Its impossible for a satem language to be the direct descendand of a centum language:

http://books.google.com/books?id=H-q2UQZ5XzAC&pg=PA31&dq=macedonian+centum&hl=el&ei=68v3TKHbLISV8QPYg934Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=macedonian%20centum&f=false

Almost back to the time of our Macedonian king, Alexander the Great

But Alexander spread Greek language everywhere,not Macedonian.He ordered the Persian youths who were trained along Macedonian soldiers to learn Greek,he ordered the inscription on Cyrus' tomb to be rewritten in Greek.Greek became the lingua franca of Near East only after Alexander's campaigne and thank to Alexander.Before Alexander Aramaic and Persian was the lingua franca in all the territory of the Persian empire.

[Onur]

however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.

Nope. Everything about Greeks/Hellenes started after the middle of 18th century with the rising popularity of the education about ancient Greeks and their culture in western Europe and the rich romaika speaking elites in Morea and Istanbul/Izmir got into that idea after they have been educated in France, England.

If anyone b4 the late 18th century would speak about ancient Greeks or would use the term Hellenes, i am sure that he would be branded as heretic pagan and immediately excommunicated and condemned by being the enemy of christ. Yes, that would be the case cuz ancient Greeks and their paganism was a taboo b4 the rise of the popularity of ancient Greek culture after the middle of 18th century. Even that taboo was still present after the creation of modern Greece. You can read the books from 1840s by European christian missionaries and see that they were highly displeased after seeing Acropolis and other ancient Greek monuments. They say that it was totally antichrist.

Also it was not a coincidence that the western European scholars invented the term "Byzantine" in place of eastern Roman empire at the same era. This was just an example for recreation and revival of Greek culture after ~2000 years of their disappearance.