Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Onur]

As far as I am aware, an Ottoman does not equate to an ethnic Turk and neither does a "Byzantine" equate to an artificially created "Grk".

Indigen, if you wanna name an ethnicity for an empire, you should look for who was the founders, the ruling monarchy and language of the court. In the case with Ottoman Empire, founders was Turks and it`s ruled by a single monarchy since 1300 to 1923. Also the only language at the court was Turkish.

On the other hand, western Romans themselves decided to split the authority of Roman Empire and they have founded the city of Istanbul to create a second ruling authority for the Eurasian lands of Roman Empire. Eastern Romans spoke Latin `till 7th century and only after that, the language of the court became Greek but in Byzantines, ruling monarchy changed several times between Armenian, Macedonian, Greek etc. families.

So, we can surely say that Ottoman Empire was more Turkish than Byzantines ever was Greek.

Ottoman correction Kemal attaturk was born in 1891 in solun which was macedonia.He was educated in bitola,macedonia.It was my mistake.Ottoman welcome to the mto forum.

Atatürk`s family was one of the immigrants who moved from central Anatolia to Debar, Macedonia after 14th century and they moved in to Salonika city center shortly before Kemal Atatürk born. So, Ataturk`s ancestors was from Debar, not Salonika city center. Atatürk born in 1881 in Salonika and he got educated in Bitola military school.

[George S.]

Definitely right there ottoman.You know that he wanted to do away with the use of the arabic writing as it was too complicated & wanted to use the latin alphabet.I'd say he was a pretty smart man & a hero to the turkish nation.I reckon some of the knowledge,culture must've rubbed on him from his macedonian days?Also the two allies of macedonia & turkey is trully amazing.Macedonia does need friends like that to survive.

[Ottoman]

In the end he was a great man, not only for us Turks but for many other people around the world (except Greeks of course)

There is a story that Ataturk had once the chance to tore the Greek flag in pieces but he didnt do that because he respected his enemies.

Turkey will never see such a man again, the year 1938 is still sorrow for us.

[George S.]

Ottoman correction Kemal attaturk was born in 1891 in solun which was macedonia.He was educated in bitola,macedonia.It was my mistake.Ottoman welcome to the mto forum.

[Bill77]

Why do you think many Christians converted to Islam?Did Muslims pay as many taxes as the Christians?

Speaking of Taxes and the Christians (In particular those of Morea)

"This renewed Turkish rule the inhabitants found preferable to that of the Venetians; taxes were lighter;

"The peninsula of the Peloponnese (in Southern Greece), which is also known as the Morea, was first partly conquered in 1397 CE by the Ottoman Sultan Beyazit I from the Byzantines, and was completely overrun in 1460 by Sultan Mehmet II, who was received as a deliverer by the Greek Orthodox Christian population, then suffering under the rule of the Roman Catholics1

Does it mean the Ottoman conquest had some positive impact on the lifes of Balkan people?

Well mabe not the whole of the Balkans, but the Albanian speakers of pre Greece didn't complain.

"This renewed Turkish rule the inhabitants found preferable to that of the Venetians

the Greeks in the Ottoman Empire were leading relatively peaceful and prosperous lives, whilst those with the wealth and education found employment in the Ottoman government service. In areas where the Greeks were in the majority they were allowed to establish their own municipalities (dimarchia), free from the interference of the state

You can read more on this thread

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3175&page=3

[Ottoman]

My understanding that kemal attaturk was born in bitola in the republic of macedonia.
If that were not the case why are the turks & macedonians building monuments to kemal attaturk at his place of birth.
Good point indigen that is true.

I never red or heard something like this before mate, Ataturk was born in Selanik.

His ancestors moved from Karaman to Selanik, I can provide you sources if you want.

I do know he went to military school in Bitola.

[George S.]

My understanding that kemal attaturk was born in bitola in the republic of macedonia.
If that were not the case why are the turks & macedonians building monuments to kemal attaturk at his place of birth.
Good point indigen that is true.

[indigen]

Of course Ottoman doest not equate to an ethnic Turk, but you just dont need to forget that without the Turks there was no Ottoman Empire at all.

That is true but it could have evolved into something even without needing much ethnic Turk input to sustain itself, witness the "Byzantine" (Roman) state and its relation to ethnic Romans.

Btw, welcome to MTO!

With respect,
I.

[Ottoman]

Of course Ottoman doest not equate to an ethnic Turk, but you just dont need to forget that without the Turks there was no Ottoman Empire at all.

[indigen]

Onur I lived in Istanbul for many years but now Im living in Europe, I visited the Balkan nations many times and did a road trip through Turkey.

Ancient Greece was a different world than present day Greece, without Ottoman occupation Greece would never be Greece like it is now, our Greek friends cannot accept this which I can understand.

They ruled Anatolia for ages and we Turks ruled them in turn.
That is what history is, there is no need to change it.

There are still many Greek monuments in Turkey today, but many Ottoman monuments were "rebuilt" in Greece which is the ultimate proof that the Greeks cannot handle the situation.

You will find Ottoman designed houses everywhere in the Balkans, in Belgrado, Athens, Sarajevo, thats the way it is, just accept it.

If you are not aware, mate, this is a Macedonian Forum and we see things in a different light in regards as to when the first "Greek" state was formed (in 1831, with the aid foreign Imperialist forces and for Imperialist agendas!) who were and were not the ancient Grks and who the modern "Grks" are and are not. Anatolia, except for the coastal fringes, was first ruled by Persians, Macedonians, Romans and "Byzantines" (Romans) and eventfully by Ottoman Empire (Ottomans). As far as I am aware, an Ottoman does not equate to an ethnic Turk and neither does a "Byzantine" equate to an artificially created "Grk".

[Ottoman]

Onur I lived in Istanbul for many years but now Im living in Europe, I visited the Balkan nations many times and did a road trip through Turkey.

Ancient Greece was a different world than present day Greece, without Ottoman occupation Greece would never be Greece like it is now, our Greek friends cannot accept this which I can understand.

They ruled Anatolia for ages and we Turks ruled them in turn.
That is what history is, there is no need to change it.

There are still many Greek monuments in Turkey today, but many Ottoman monuments were "rebuilt" in Greece which is the ultimate proof that the Greeks cannot handle the situation.

You will find Ottoman designed houses everywhere in the Balkans, in Belgrado, Athens, Sarajevo, thats the way it is, just accept it.

[Onur]

Whoa... i guess there is a classical Greek-Turk argument here

I see that Greek one is from Salonika but where are you from Ottoman?

Off course,that's normal considering that thousands,if not millions of Greeks were assimilated by Turks,like these here:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_haber.php?ek=r2&haberno=6772

We have Kurds here speaking Kurdish, Armenians speaking Armenian, Greeks from Istanbul speaking Romaika and even some muslim people in Blacksea still remembers and speaking Romaika as we see from your link.

BUT, how many of Karamanlides and Gagauz can speak Turkish in Greece today? OR Pontian Greeks can speak Romaika as their true language? OR how many Macedonians can speak Macedonian? OR how many Arvanites can speak Albanian, their true language again????

So, answer these questions to me then tell me WHO assimilated WHO????


P. S: "if not millions of Greeks were assimilated by Turks"
Make that billions instead of millions. Looks cooler that way, ok?

[Ottoman]

The Midnight Express movie is a propaganda movie just like Alexander

Atik Sinan considered himself as an Ottoman not a Greek, he lived the Ottoman lifestyle because he was raised as an Ottoman, how many muslim Greeks are there around today? not many I think.

Atik Sinan, Mimar Sinan etc. were all Ottomans, they considered themselves Ottoman and they spoke the Ottoman Turkish language.
You really think the whole of Byzantine was just ethnic Greek? lol.

I went to both Greece and Turkey a lot and I see that the architecture of the houses are just the same, how come? did the aliens design that?

You got any proof that Gyros (Doner) Dolmades (Dolma) Baklava (word of Turkic origin) are all Greek dishes? no you dont because its Turkish.

You ever heard of Muazzaz Ilmiye Cig? she is an well known international expert on the Sumerians, studying them for almost her whole life, I think she knows more than your crappy logic do.

[Agamoi Thytai]

You want to hear one big difference?

There is proof that Greeks have Ethiopian roots

Black Athena crap is rejected by all reputable scholars and genetists.

and Sumerians (first civilization on earth) were proto-Turks.

Says who???Kemal Ataturk???

Many modern Greeks just look like Turks which is pretty normal because of the Ottoman occupation for centuries.

Off course,that's normal considering that thousands,if not millions of Greeks were assimilated by Turks,like these here:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_haber.php?ek=r2&haberno=6772

Ah,and first you have to define what is supposed to be the genuine Turkish look you are refering to?Is it this one:

http://www.sport.gr/files/news/2009-06-17/1245254501_turkoglou_250x.jpg

Maybe this?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_0X18t-8ZkNM/S3V09iYoaxI/AAAAAAAACAM/TStwW7ZiKcE/Ozgur13.jpg

Or these?

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/420077/ph03b.jpg

http://im.in.com/media/download/wallpapers/2009/May/turkish_girls_euro_2008_420x315.jpg

Greek cuisine is a copy of Turkish cuisine.
Modern Greek architecture has Ottoman origins, the reason you guys got rid of the togas and began to wear proper clothes was because of the Turks. Greek dances are also a copy of Turkish dances (especially fom the Black Sea region)
You guys didnt even know what dancing was before the Turks came, .
We teached you to cook, we teached you to dress, we teached you to dance,

Sure,Greeks didn't have before 15th century any cuisine,music,architecture and they needed some nomads of the Asian steppes to teach them all this!Makes really a lot of sense!Would you like to show us please some samples of traditional ottoman architecture?Some works of the most famous Ottoman acrhitects,who happened to be of Greek origin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atik_Sinan

you guys didnt even know what falling in love or having sex (with women) was before the Turks came
we teached you to fall in love and have sex with women, whats more?

Give me a break dude!Do you mean pederasty and other homo practices are totally unknown in Turkey???

http://books.google.com/books?id=QjzYdCxumFcC&pg=PA523

Have you ever seen the movie "The midnight express"?I suppose no,because this film is banned in your country!

[Ottoman]

And why do you think there are so many Jews in present day Turkey?

During the Spanish inquisition and holocaust many Jews fled to the Ottoman Empire/Turkey and were taken in.

Turkey has also many people of African roots, these people were all slaves but the big difference with European black slaves were that these people were allowed to adapt into Ottoman life, they even got their own place to live and most important the right to live, how many black slaves in Europe were also treated this way? many of them were just thrown into the sea.

I forgot to mention both the French and the Dutch were helped by the Ottomans, the Ottomans helped the Dutch against the Spaniards and the French King got cured because Suleiman the Magnificent sended over some yoghurt to cure his diarrhea.

Bottom line Europe learned toleration from the Ottomans, medieval Europe was just the worst place to live in.