Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[George S.]

Mislam ovoj se preprava i ne lazi.Se znait deka e so nivnite i ne lazit.

[George S.]

You know how macedonia has friendly relations with turkey & also attaturk was born i think in solun & grew up & was educated in bitola that would be very fitting.

[SirGeorge8600]

A statue of ataturk belongs in Turkey if anything...he is the father of all Turks and regarded himself as 100% Turkish and nothing else through his entire lifetime. It's like taking Einsteins statue from Israel and putting it in Germany because he has partial German ethnicity, even though Einstein identified himself only as Jewish. You'd be basically pulling one on yourselves.

[George S.]

well wheres onur to answer that.I would presume they would be but greeks seem to hate any statues of anyone.

[Dimko-piperkata]

next big statue of Mustafa Kemal "Atatürk" is planned...

...in Bitola

MKA was only a half-macedonian (mother), as against acko a full blooded macedonian was...but I assume that the turks will be very proud about a statue of MKA.

do u guys think that the turks will be happy or unhappy like the greeks are about the acko statue ?

[George S.]

exactly my point how can they know today more than 2000 years ago what happened.Also they can base things on what happened in the 6 th century.It's all greek propaganda it's all illogical & doesn't make sense.If any serious history student studies what greece has done they will know & understand that greece was never a country it was created by the powers that be.Now greece is tring to appropriate other people's history & culture.As soon as you clear the smoke & mirrors you see the big picture.

[osiris]

modern greek historiography is fitting the past to suit the present they look at history backwards and this fool agamisou is a perfect example of that method

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here Paul definitely uses the term "Hellenes" with the original ethnic meaning,in his letter to the Romans:

"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to the barbarians both to the learned and to the ignorant".
http://books.google.com/books?id=RYIfAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA354

I don't think so, because according to that logic, there are ethnic 'barbarians'. However, as we both know, there is no such ethnicity, so the above is merely a cultural distinction, which is why the quote goes on to say 'both to the learned and to the ignorant'. Presumably, the Greeks are the learned, and the barbarians ignorant. Let's look at the whole passage and not just the excerpt you extracted:

ROMANS, 1 - I am debtor to both Greeks and barbarians, both to wise and unwise. So as much as in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

It is significant to note that Paul wrote his letter to Rome in Koine Greek, and it is more than obvious that the terminology used is religious or class/cultural in nature, that is why you only ever see ‘Jew or Greek’, ‘Greek or barbarian’, and not 'Greek or Roman'. Why else would Paul be talking about 'Greeks and barbarians' in a letter to the Romans? The power of God is for the salvation of everyone - clearly, not everyone was an ethnic Greek or an ethnic Jew (Hebrew). I guess this is a case of a modern Greek trying to monopolise the meaning of 'Hellene' in the New Testament. I wouldn't discount the possibility that some references to 'Hellenes' may in fact be pertinent to ethnic Greeks, but certainly not the majority of them.

[Bill77]

Here Paul definitely uses the term "Hellenes" with the original ethnic meaning,in his letter to the Romans:

"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to the barbarians both to the learned and to the ignorant".
http://books.google.com/books?id=RYIfAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA354

So now all of a sudden, you separate "Greeks" and "Barbarian", as an ethnic meaning.

Congratulations, you have taken a step forward, so there is hope for your likes after all

But now the bad news. Even though you show signs of progress, you still don't pass. "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to the barbarians both to the learned and to the ignorant"..... How do you take this passage as Paul using the term "Hellenes" in an ethnic meaning???

Paul clearly describes Hellenes as the learned, and Barbarians (non Hellenes) as ignorant. Anyone that did not believe in a God (signs) but preferred science, logic (wisdom) would have been a "Hellene". It has nothing what so ever to do with ethnicity but belief, understanding. What they called "Hellenes" back in ancient times, is now called Atheism.

Also in this passage of his letter to the Corinthians it's reasonable to assume that he does the same:

"And although the Jews demand a sign and the Greeks seek wisdom yet we preach Christ crucified:to the Jews indeed a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness"
http://books.google.com/books?id=RYIfAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA383

Again you look silly. "Jews demand a sign and the Greeks seek wisdom" How could this mean anything else apart from religion vs Atheism ?

Greeks "seeking wisdom",a clear reference to typical Greek cultural traits,i.e. philosophy,rationalism and free thought,as opposed to Jewish religiousness and acceptance of a priori doctrines.

ahhhh now you say its a religious vs anti religion (seeking wisdom, science rather than Divinity, a creator)

Darwin and his followers must also be Greeks aswell.

Also What you need to do is for a moment, wipe out of your mind the modern word "Greek" and all that comes with it (souvlaki, bouzouki, panathiniaikos, the Turkish influenced language etc) so not to get confused with the true meaning of Hellene.

It would make no sense to speak of "pagans" seeking wisdom.

I will disagree with SOM and your self here. IMHO, "Hellenism" did not mean "Paganism" (worshiping of many Gods and rituals rather than a one true god).

In the bible, Hellene did not mean Pagan, which you are correct in saying "It would make no sense to speak of "pagans" seeking wisdom".
But it makes sense when someone seeks wisdom, it can only mean he does not depend on religious belief. They search for evidence rather than faith.

What distorts the true meaning and confuses many (regarding the Bible and Greece), is the word "Greek" used by modern day scholars as a translation to the original scriptures. This is very wrong. Its wrong that it's misleading, and through any gurney in discovery, when you come to a fork in the road, if you take the wrong turn, you will come to a different destination all together and not the correct one you intended. This is where the modern day translation of the bible is.

The original scriptures (old testament) never used the words "Greek" or "Hellene".

[Agamoi Thytai]

St Paul almost always used Hellene in comparison to Jew in a religious manner, for example - There is neither Jew nor Hellene, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. In the Gospel of Mark 7:26 - "The woman was a Hellene, a Syrophœnician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. The nationality/ethnicity of the woman is stated to be Syrophœnician, by her religion she is a Hellene. Interestingly, it is not 'Hellene' but 'Heathen' which is used in Ulfilas's Gothic, Wycliffe and Coverdale. Where is the term 'Hellene' used in an ethnic manner?

Here Paul definitely uses the term "Hellenes" with the original ethnic meaning,in his letter to the Romans:

"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to the barbarians both to the learned and to the ignorant".

http://books.google.com/books?id=RYIfAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA354

Also in this passage of his letter to the Corinthians it's reasonable to assume that he does the same:

"And although the Jews demand a sign and the Greeks seek wisdom yet we preach Christ crucified:to the Jews indeed a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness"

http://books.google.com/books?id=RYIfAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA383

Greeks "seeking wisdom",a clear reference to typical Greek cultural traits,i.e. philosophy,rationalism and free thought,as opposed to Jewish religiousness and acceptance of a priori doctrines.It would make no sense to speak of "pagans" seeking wisdom.

That distinguishes Macedonians from Dorians.

On the contrary,it means Macedonians and Dorians are one and the same.The Greek text says "Δωρικόν τε καὶ Μακεδνὸν ἔθνος" and the key-word is "te",which is always accompanied by "kai" ("and" in Greek) denoting an addition or connection,i.e. "they are both Macedonian and Dorian race".

Watch this:

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5037.htm

te
and (denotes addition or connection)
Original Word: τέ
Part of Speech: Particle, Disjunctive Particle
Transliteration: te
Phonetic Spelling: (teh)
Short Definition: and, both
Definition: and, both.
5037 té (a conjunction) – "and both" ("both and"). 5037 /té ("and both") occurs 204 times in the NT and unfortunately is often not translated.

[When translated, 5037 (té) is usually rendered "and," "both and," or "and both."]
Word Origin
a prim. enclitic particle
Definition
and (denotes addition or connection)
NASB Word Usage
alike (1), along (1), also (7), both (37), even (1), only (1), only* (1), or (2), well (2), whether (1).

That 'statement' of Herodotus says:

For a period of time they settled under the Macedonian name, which was already in existence, and then they moved on to the Peloponnese. Herodotus' reference to them as Macedonians was specific for a point and nowhere repeated.

I didn't get your point here.Do you claim Herodotus actually said they were called Macedonians only when they dwelt in that specific region,because they were living there together with (or as neighbours of) the Macedonians?Very odd,if that's really your point!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Borza's point is that Herodotus indirectly implied Macedonians were not Greeks when he labeled Thessalians as "the first Greeks to surrender themselves to Xerxes".However Herodotus' clear reference to Thessalian envoys who went to Persia itself to offer their submission to Xerxes,long before Persians passed from Macedonia invalidates Borza's assertions.

Herodotus doesn't mention the Macedonians as the first "Greeks" subject to Xerxes even though they already were through a previous arrangement inherited from his father Darius, which was well before Thessaly showed 'precaution' to him.

Herodotus had already written in some chapter before that he considered Macedonians as Greeks,why would he now change his mind?

No he doesn't, he refers to the Macedonian kings and only because of his dealings with Alexander I 'Philhellene'.

The following took part in the war: from the Peloponnese, the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. All of these except the Hermioneans are Dorian and Macedonian and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...%3Asection%3D1

That distinguishes Macedonians from Dorians.

"...the statement of herodotus that there was a time when the dorians lived in Pindus and were called Macedonians"

http://books.google.com/books?id=DhyQ5nHMt3UC&pg=PA150&dq=herodotus+macedonians+dorians&hl=el&ei=EylHTfauFMiv8gPH0YSvCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=herodotus%20macedonians%20dorians&f=false

That 'statement' of Herodotus says:

they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians (Rawlinson).

For a period of time they settled under the Macedonian name, which was already in existence, and then they moved on to the Peloponnese. Herodotus' reference to them as Macedonians was specific for a point and nowhere repeated.

[makedonche]

Makedonche,i repeat that my point was Herodotus' passage and not the personal view of that author,John Linton Myres,but anyway,since you insist,neither this is in your favour.On page 99 he writes:

"...at this point it is sufficient to note that though this group of languages spread into Asia Minor from the European end,it belongs to the same eastern group of Indo-European languages as Sanskrit and Old Persian,not to the western group which includes as its nearest neighbors the northern dialects of Greek,including that of the Macedonians,who were coming in the fifth century to have a common frontier with the Thracians in the Strymon basin..."
http://books.google.com/books?id=DhyQ5nHMt3UC&pg=PA99

Agamoi
If you continue to read page 99 it may enlighten you further:-

"We have now made a complete circuit through the regions immediately east of the Aegean, seeking for something more coherent than the survivals in loan words and place names, with which we began, to illustrate the distribution of languages there before Greek dialects began to spread."

Further on to page 100 :-
" Fortuneately here there is not only a large mass of documentary material of early date, at last decipherable; but, as now deciphered, this gives us an outline of historical events, very much further back than any documentary record on the side of the Greeks."

Tell me is this in my favour?

[Agamoi Thytai]

Agamoi
Your'e missing the point, when you quote what an author says it is him you are quoting - regardless of who/whom he is talking about! That being the case you should read more of his works to get a wholistic understanding of his views, rather than selecting one small piece that he makes reference to Heredotus and trying to use that as some credible evidence to substantiate your flawed opinions.

Makedonche,i repeat that my point was Herodotus' passage and not the personal view of that author,John Linton Myres,but anyway,since you insist,neither this is in your favour.On page 99 he writes:

"...at this point it is sufficient to note that though this group of languages spread into Asia Minor from the European end,it belongs to the same eastern group of Indo-European languages as Sanskrit and Old Persian,not to the western group which includes as its nearest neighbors the northern dialects of Greek,including that of the Macedonians,who were coming in the fifth century to have a common frontier with the Thracians in the Strymon basin..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=DhyQ5nHMt3UC&pg=PA99

[makedonche]

Makedonche,my reference was no to John Linton Myres but to Herodotus' history.I couldn't find an english translation of Herodotus' passage where he says Dorians were once called Macedonians,so i had to post this excerpt of Myres with a citation to Herodotus.However i've found the original passage of Herodotus i was talking about:

“The Pelasgians never migrated anywhere,but the Hellenes were a very well-travelled race.When Deucalion was their king,they were living in Phthia,but in the time of Dorus the son of Hellen they were in the territory around Mount Ossa and Olympus,known as Histiaeotis.Then they were evicted from Histiaeotis by the Cadmeans and settled on Mount Pindus,where they were called Macedonians.Next they moved to Dryopis,and from Dryopis they finally reached the Peloponnese and became known as the Dorians.”
http://books.google.com/books?id=VrV5TELCHJ4C&pg=PA24

Agamoi
Your'e missing the point, when you quote what an author says it is him you are quoting - regardless of who/whom he is talking about! That being the case you should read more of his works to get a wholistic understanding of his views, rather than selecting one small piece that he makes reference to Heredotus and trying to use that as some credible evidence to substantiate your flawed opinions.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Agamoi
You might want to read another of Myres works before you use him as a reference:

Makedonche,my reference was no to John Linton Myres but to Herodotus' history.I couldn't find an english translation of Herodotus' passage where he says Dorians were once called Macedonians,so i had to post this excerpt of Myres with a citation to Herodotus.However i've found the original passage of Herodotus i was talking about:

“The Pelasgians never migrated anywhere,but the Hellenes were a very well-travelled race.When Deucalion was their king,they were living in Phthia,but in the time of Dorus the son of Hellen they were in the territory around Mount Ossa and Olympus,known as Histiaeotis.Then they were evicted from Histiaeotis by the Cadmeans and settled on Mount Pindus,where they were called Macedonians.Next they moved to Dryopis,and from Dryopis they finally reached the Peloponnese and became known as the Dorians.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=VrV5TELCHJ4C&pg=PA24