Kalash / Hunza tribes & the Burushaski Language

[Carlin]

It is likely that the Kalash are an ancient tribe of northern Eurasia.

A 2015 study suggested that the Kalash have genetic linkages to Paleolithic Siberian hunter-gatherers “and might represent an extremely drifted ancient northern Eurasian population that also contributed to European and Near Eastern ancestry.” This research did not support the idea that the Kalash people have any link to Alexander’s soldiers.

URLs:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4570283/

[Momce Makedonce]

Who Are Pakistan's Descendants Of Alexander The Great?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV7pOB_YQYU

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Thanks for the video. The part of about Kalash youth voluntarily converting to Islam is a good case example of the indirect pressure felt by minority cultures / peoples to assimilate when they are not afforded the same protections of law, rights and opportunities.

Pakistan is an Islamic country, the purpose of its creation in 1947 was a country strictly for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent. Of course the British partioned India horribly and the border did not as still don't reflect the religious demographics of the region. This is why the government seeks to assimilate all non-muslim groups and also to quash nationalism among Muslim-majority people such as the Balochs.

[vicsinad]

Thanks for the video. The part of about Kalash youth voluntarily converting to Islam is a good case example of the indirect pressure felt by minority cultures / peoples to assimilate when they are not afforded the same protections of law, rights and opportunities.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

New short video on the Kalash:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV7pOB_YQYU

[George S.]

Pakistan's Hunza: We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek

Pakistan's Hunza: We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek

11 January, 19:09

http://www.shilomagazine.com.au/we-a...-and-not-greek

Interview by Zoran Coseski with Mr- Safder Karim a Hunza student at the Sydney University

Mr- Safder Karim, where are the Hunza and Kalash people from and where do they live?

The people of Hunza and Kalash are the ancestors of Alexander the Great . The great Alexander was the king of Macedonia. So logically we migrated from Macedonia to Hunza and we are the generation of Alexander's army who never returned to Macedonia.

What is your view about the Greek cultural centres being opened in the Hunza and Kalash regions?

There are no Greek cultural centers opened in Hunza Amit in Kalash and we won't let anyone to open any centres of their culture if they are not Macedonian . We are proud to be Macedonian and we are not Greek.

Is your heritage Greek or Macedonian?

I m totally confused why Greeks think that we are Greeks. Alexander was Macedonian so to clarify everything, our ancestors were Macedonians not Greeks. The Greeks have tried very hard to make us Greek but they won't get us to become Greek. We belong to the Macedonian culture and to Macedonia. We never mix with any other culture. In the ancient world there was no country called Greece, there was a Macedonian kingdom with a king and a city states around Athens.

Tell us about your Language?

Our language is very similar many words are similar. We speak the Burushaki language. This language is only spoken by the people of Alexander’s descendants in today's Pakistan .

What message do you have for the Macedonian people around the world?


There are many things I would love to tell the Macedonian community firstly we are Brothers and the children of one father, our culture is the same our language is the same our music is also the same. We can't change our Macedonian identity, no one can change their identity. I would say that there must be opportunities for the people of Hunza and the people of Macedonia to take steps to build relationships between Hunza and Macedonia because there are many other cultures like the Greeks who trying to show that we are Greeks . There should be a proper set up for the students of Hunza to go to Macedonia and get an education and also learn the Macedonian language. When they get back to Hunza they can teach the Macedonian language .There are many things to build relationship between Hunza and Macedonia and we must take step now. We love our brothers and we are proud to be descendents of the great KING ALEXANDER of Makedon . So time to show unity time to be one its time to find opportunities to make the boundaries closer to each other.


At the end I would Say long live Hunza long live Macedonia and long live our brotherhood

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

Ok, I found a fairly complete on-line glossary of the Burushaski language. I'll post more and more later on, but for now I'll post the body parts.

Bácin: animal's hind leg above the hock.

Bumbálten: ankle

Bur: single strand of hair

Galgí: fin or wing

Gáan: Heel

Hútes/Utis: Foot

Jaláalimin: long hair

Kin/Ken: finger

Kúur: finger joint or toe joint

Melc: Jaw or Jawbone

Mis/Mes: finger or toe

Moqis: cheek or face

Multur: nostril

Mus: nose, snout

Pat/Phat: side

Pholgo/Phulguuy: Feather

Qet: Armpit

Qhasin: hind end, arse

Xhat/Qhat: Mouth

San: spleen

Su(i): navel/umbilical cord

Susun/Sesen: elbow

Tal: stomach or belly

Tano: colon or rectum

Tar(i): Skin or hide

Ten (Ltin): bone

Tur (Ltur): Horn

Ul: belly/bowels

Yaldir: ribs


---The only word similar to a Macedonian word that I know of is "mus" meaning nose being similar to "nos." Likely just a similarity due to both being I.E. languages.---

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

Philosopher, yes I do mean linguistically.

Also, I found another word that they have that's similar to one of ours. According to a lexicon on their language, they use the word "Ја (Ya)," when referring to oneself. This is nearly like our "Јас (Yas) "

On the other hand, according to the same lexicon, their language has many cognates with the Basque language (thought to be another isolated language). I'll post the full lexicon later on.

[DraganOfStip]

Interesting side-note: in this video the old man that is being interviewed says that their word for hand is "chaka," which is nearly like the Macedonian "raka" ...
---

We also have the word "shaka (шака)" which is the palm of the hand.

[Philosopher]

You mean linguistically?

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

The Supposed Hunza/Kalash-Macedonian Connection Theory

All evidence with sources is welcome. Personally I believe the theory is far-fetched but let's see what we can uncover about it.

Here's the Macedonian Wikipedia article on the Hunza:

http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B7%D0%B8

Here's the English Wikipedia article on the Hunza:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burusho_people#Hunza

Here's a YouTube video on the Kalash people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJj5FHosjYw&feature=related

Here's an article on the Hunza:

https://archive.today/20130103054812/www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-15474302.html

Here's another YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0LSoUMXHQk

---
Interesting side-note: in this video the old man that is being interviewed says that their word for hand is "chaka," which is nearly like the Macedonian "raka" (dialectic Macedonian: "ranka," "ruka," "ruko.") This, of course, cannot be enough to draw a strong connection between the Hunza and Macedonian. Perhaps the reason why the word is similar is because both are I.E. languages and it's a coincidence.
---

[Poligiros]

You know it is funny you wrote this.

I quoted a biased study that started with the “Greekness” of ancient Macedonia, and yet you make it appear that I, and not you and the study have political agendas.

I'm still waiting for these studies. Where are they mate?

Go to google and search for Hunza and DNA. We have Albanians claiming direct lineage too - LOL: " the relationship between Kalash-Hunza and Albanians is suggested by various scholars: Leitner, E.Skura, A.Kola, S.Lolja, L.Gjokaj, S.Mehmeti, etc. The modern scholarship accepted widely that are still alive the remains of Alexander’s army. We know from Susa’s marriages that more than 10,000 Illyro-Macedonian solders were married with Persian women in order to reinforce Illyro-Macedonian domination of Asia"

Go through and research some of the results.

Poligiros, the problem we have is that you make broad (and false) statements.

First, it is “improbable” to you, because you “start” with the “Greekness” of ancient Macedonia, and the “Slavness” of modern Macedonians, so in your mind, no matter what scientific studies show, there can be no Macedonian connection to the Pathans.

Actually, you have totally missed my point. I am trying to tell you that no one Balkan nation is ethically pure as people moved around in all neighboring nations. As for the Hunza, there may be more concentration of Hunza haplotype in the Republic of Macedonia compared to other nations in one sample study you are referencing for varying reasons. Have you thought about the fact that Asiatics (e.g. Iranian) tribes moved west to Europe as far as the Adriatic?

I do not think I need to remind you that all genetic studies support the same position: Macedonians are genetically very close with other Balkan people, including Greeks, Bulgarians, and Albanians.[/QUOTE]

That I agree with. I was referring to one of many iGenea propaganda studies I have seen on various sites stating modern day Greeks were closely related to Ethiopians and other distorted findings? I cant be bothered googling the scientific response debunking propaganda piece, as I have done so many times in the past.

Overall, I think the issue here is the fact that you deny Macedonia's Hellenic element that is heavily pertinent to Macedonia's history and makeup. Macedonia has been a multicultural region after the Hellenistic age, including Roman and other migrations. The status quo is not going to change, thus I believe its beneficial to be acquainted with neighboring Balkan cultures, especially in the greater Macedonian region.

regards

[Nikolaj]

These quotes and statements are clutching at straws to establish an improbable link to Hunza people of modern day people of Macedonia. Much like the iGenea studies that were largely debunked by experts. google them.

I believe Constellation has clarified your post well enough.

[Constellation]

You are analyzing some basic sample studies and making conclusions to work in your favor and into a context that suites your political agenda.

You know it is funny you wrote this. You are claiming that I analyzed basic samples, which for the record I did not, and then claimed I made conclusions, which I also did not do, and that these conclusions were made to suite my political agenda, which is a bit ridiculous, since you are the one with the political agenda.

Here is the thing.

I quoted a biased study that started with the “Greekness” of ancient Macedonia, and yet you make it appear that I, and not you and the study have political agendas.

You have quoted a small sample narrative

Quoted a small sample narrative? Have you read the narrative?

Have I in anyway misquoted the study or misread the conclusions?

and there are contradicting studies that show different results of the Hunza tribe

I'm still waiting for these studies. Where are they mate?

My interpretation, there is a coincidence of the sample with a halotype specific to the balkans, the highest frequency being Macedonia. firstly, there were thousands of ethnic Greeks (even from Epirus) and Macedonian that migrated to Republic of Macedonia as result of the communist civil war. Surrounding villages consisted of ethnic Greek children that moved to ex-Yugoslavia.

I see. So you have no actual scientific citations to support your theories, but you insist the correct analysis would have to involve thousands of ethnic Greeks migrating to Macedonia, and that these Greeks are the reason why the Pathan study showed that the highest frequency is in Macedonia.

Here is the problem with this theory.

First, the odds that in the Macedonian study, of all Macedonian nationals, Slav speaking Greeks would have been selected exclusively, is statistically an impossibility.

Second, there was a researcher, named Steven Bird, who investigated this, and he found that the specific genes in the database are almost entirely absent in the Greek population. In other words, the theory that Greeks in northern Greece, who have zero in the way of these genes in this database, migrated in the thousands to Macedonia, and thus this explains why the Macedonians have the highest frequency in the Pathan study, is frankly stupid and absurd.

Anyone who has worked with E3b1 for any length of time will recognize these
immediately as the ordinary modal STR values for the E3b1 subclade (probably E3b1a2, although this still awaits the commercial availability of V13 for proof.)

The authors entered this "Greek"haplotype at YHRD and stated in their
article that 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897
haplotypes were found that matched it. To quote:

"The contour map [of the distribution of this haplotype] shows a major
concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other
European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a
strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y
chromosomes." Thus in this statement, they again conflate Macedonian and
Greek ancestry. (See above-linked abstract to the article, "HLA genes in
Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.").

I decided to follow suit and enter the same data at YHRD. I entered the
above haplotype and came up with a list of the populations with matches to
this profile. What struck me immediately was the almost complete ABSENCE of
this haplotype in Greece itself!!!! The only exception was found in Thrace,
Greece, where 4 out of 41 samples showed this profile. Every other profile
was found outside of Greece itself, including 14/149 in Macedonia, 4/43 in
Krusevo, Macedonia (among the Aromun population there,) 8/453 in Stuttgart,
Germany, 5/35 in Sarajevo, 3/52 in Skopje, Macedonia, 2/30 in Tirana,
Albania, etc.

The following regions in Greece had NO presence for this profile in YHRD
(sample size in parenthesis):

Athens (101)
Central Greece (14)
Crete, Greece (8)
Epirus, Greece (14)
Macedonia, Greece (28) !!!!!!
Peloponnes, Greece (18)
Thessaly, Greece (15)

198 samples above, plus 37 out of 41 samples in Thrace, for a total of 235
samples found in Greece had NO appearance of this haplotype whatsoever. The
E3b1 modal appeared in just 4 out of 235 samples within the borders of
Greece itself and those in a region that was originally part of Thracia.
How can anyone say credibly that this group is representative of a displaced
Greek population? At the very least it is Macedonian and considering the
known composition of Alexander's army, may have been Thracian instead.

The problem, obviously, is with the misidentification of Alexander as a
Greek rather than a Macedonian by these researchers. If they had stated
that the Pathan population of Pakistan had been descended from Macedonians
who accompanied Alexander, I believe that they would have hit the mark.

One other paragraph is worth noting:

"This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y
chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans -- the highest frequency
being in Macedonia."

I was speechless. The right conclusion but the wrong description.

This sinks your theory in the Aegean Poligiros.

These quotes and statements are clutching at straws to establish an improbable link to Hunza people of modern day people of Macedonia. Much like the iGenea studies that were largely debunked by experts. google them.

Poligiros, the problem we have is that you make broad (and false) statements.

First, it is “improbable” to you, because you “start” with the “Greekness” of ancient Macedonia, and the “Slavness” of modern Macedonians, so in your mind, no matter what scientific studies show, there can be no Macedonian connection to the Pathans.

Second, the iGenea study is not inaccurate, it is how the data was identified. If iGenea would have stuck with haplogroups and not ethnic compositions, the studies it conducted would never have been challenged or maligned. I do not think I need to remind you that all genetic studies support the same position: Macedonians are genetically very close with other Balkan people, including Greeks, Bulgarians, and Albanians.

[Poligiros]

Well that is different to what you originally said.

In the context of Hunza DNA studies and the markers used as a comparative sample, I was stating that there are thousands of ethnic Hellenes that moved to what is now Republic of Macedonia in during the civil war, and many more that lived there e.g. (Monastiri/Bitola that consisted of a Hellenic Element). Many of these people would not identify as Greek and do not maintain links with Greece. However, their DNA would be similar to a Hellene.

My point is, in ALL Balkan countries you will find an element of neighboring DNA, such as Macedonian in Albania, Greek in Albania. The same goes for Hellenic DNA in Republic of Macedonia.

Therefore when comparing a Pakistani tribe to the Balkans, there is limited accuracy in the haplotype results as they are based on a sample of markers. I am not an expert in the field, but I have doubts about the accuracy of the Hunza being derived from Ancient Macedonia stock.