Kalash / Hunza tribes & the Burushaski Language

[Nikolaj]

Other names for the language are Biltum, Khajuna, Kunjut, Brushaski, Burucaki, Burucaski, Burushaki, Burushki,[7] Brugaski, Brushas, Werchikwar and Miśa:ski.

I was wondering about that too, according to wikipedia:

No generally accepted connection has been demonstrated between Burushaski and any other language or language family. Several attempts have been made to establish a genealogical relationship between Burushaski and the Caucasic languages,[9] with the Yeniseian languages in a family called Karasuk,[10] as a non-Indo-Iranian Indo-European language,[11][12] or to include Burushaski in the Dené–Caucasian proposal, which includes both Caucasic and Yeniseian.[13][14] None of these efforts has been accepted by scholarly consensus. In 2008 Edward Vajda attempted to demonstrate[15] Merritt Ruhlen's proposal[16] that Yeniseian was most closely related to Na-Dene in a Dené–Yeniseian family, but the evidence adduced has not been extended to Burushaski.The Indo-Europeanist Eric P. Hamp has proposed a correlation between Burushaski and Indo-Hittite.[17]Ilija Casule proposed Phrygian[18]

Following Berger (1956), the American Heritage dictionaries suggested that the word *abel ‘apple’, the only name for a fruit (tree) reconstructed for Proto-Indo-European, may have been borrowed from a language ancestral to Burushaski. (Today "apple" and "apple tree" are báalt in Burushaski.)

[Macedonian_Nationalist]

What does he mean by "our language is very similar many words are similar"? Does he mean with Macedonian?

If so, where is the evidence for this?

Burushaski ends in ski.

Anyone have more information?

I remember watching a doco on them and some Macedonian journalist went there and there was actually a number of words which were very very similar to modern Macedonian

From memory they called Raka (hand) Raka aswell but I've forgotten the rest

[Philosopher]

Tell us about your Language?

Our language is very similar many words are similar. we speak Burushaki language. This language is only spoken by the people of Alexanders descendants in today's Pakistan.

What does he mean by "our language is very similar many words are similar"? Does he mean with Macedonian?

If so, where is the evidence for this?

Burushaski ends in ski.

Anyone have more information?

[Nikolaj]

I find it interesting that their language isn't linked to any language family as it is a language isolate in this period of time. Isn't this a gateway to the unknown languages of the ancient period?

[Thorvald]

Aren't these people not under the threat of Islamization?

[Volokin]

Good to hear. The Macedonian government should do more to set up relations with the Hunza people. Macedonian classes in schools would be a great idea.

[iceman]

Pakistan's Hunza: We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek

http://www.shilomagazine.com.au/we-are-proud-to-be-macedonians-and-not-greek

Pakistan's Hunza: We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek.
11 January, 19:09
Pakistan's Hunza: We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek.
We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek.

Interview by Zoran Coseski with Mr- Safder Karim a Hunza student at the Sydney University
(photo Facebook, published on Mr Coseski Fb page)

Mr- Safder Karim
Where are the Hunza and Kalash people from and where do they live?

The people of Hunza and Kalash are the ancestors of Alexander the Great . The great Alexander was the king of Macedonia. So logically we migrated from Macedonia to Hunza and we are the generation of Alexander 's army who never returned to Macedonia.

What is your view about the Greek cultural centres being opened in the Hunza and Kalash regions?

There are no Greek cultural centers opened in Hunza Amit in Kalash and we won't let anyone to open any centres of their culture if they are not Macedonian . We are proud to be Macedonian and we are not Greek.


Is your heritage Greek or Macedonian?

I m totally confused why Greeks think that we are Greeks . Alexander was Macedonian so to clarify everything, our ancestors were Macedonians not Greeks. The Greeks have tried very hard to make us Greek but they won't get us to become Greek. We belong to the Macedonian culture and to Macedonia . We never mix with any other culture .In the ancient world there was no country called Greece, there was a Macedonian kingdom with a king and a city states around Athens.

Tell us about your Language?

Our language is very similar many words are similar. we speak Burushaki language. This language is only spoken by the people of Alexanders descendants in today's Pakistan .

What message do you have for the Macedonian people around the world?


There are many things I would love to tell the Macedonian community firstly we are Brothers and the children of one father, our culture is the same our language is the same our music is also the same . We can't change our Macedonian identity, no one can change their identity . I would say that there must be opportunities for the people of Hunza and the people of Macedonia to take steps to build relationships between Hunza and Macedonia because there are many other other cultures like the Greeks who trying to show that we are Greeks . There should be a proper set up for the students of Hunza to go to Macedonia and get an education and also learn the Macedonian language . When they get back to Hunza they can teach the Macedonian language .There are many things to build relationship between Hunza and Macedonia and we must take step now. We love our brothers and we are proud to be descendents of the great KING ALEXANDER of Makedon . So time to show unity time to be one its time to find opportunities to make the boundaries closer to each other .
At the end I would Say long live Hunza long live Macedonia and long live our brotherhood

[Constellation]

This is a significant study, as it demonstrates with very high probability that today's Macedonians descend from the ancient Macedonians, and that the Macedonians in Alexander's army are genetically related to today's Macedonians.

From what I have read so far, it appears that this population speaks a language which may have been spoken by the ancient Macedonians, and it is similar to today's Macedonian language?

Is this correct?

Any thoughts?

[DraganOfStip]

Here are some links of threads in this forum connected to the above mentioned people in Pakistan that you could be interested in:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4900&highlight=kalash&page=2

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6193&highlight=kalash

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3339&highlight=kalash

[Constellation]

In Search of a Greek Contribution to the Pathan Population.

In Search of a Greek Contribution to the Pathan Population.

When you start with the “Greekness" of everything, you are bound to find some “Greek”, but in this example, there is a whole lot more of “Macedonian” than “Greek”.

Article

European Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 15, 121–126. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201726; published online 18 October 2006
Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan

Sadaf Firasat1, Shagufta Khaliq1, Aisha Mohyuddin1, Myrto Papaioannou2, Chris Tyler-Smith3, Peter A Underhill4 and Qasim Ayub1

1Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Dr. AQ Khan Research Laboratories, Islamabad, Pakistan
2Unit of Prenatal Diagnosis, Center for Thalassemia, Laiko General Hospital, Athens, Greece
3The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, Cambridge, UK
4Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA, USA

Correspondence: Dr Q Ayub, Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Dr AQ Khan Research Laboratories, GPO Box 2891, Islamabad 44000, Pakistan. Tel: +92 51 926 1142; Fax: +92 51 926 1144; E-mail:[email protected]

Received 16 November 2005; Revised 9 August 2006; Accepted 1 September 2006; Published online 18 October 2006.
Top of page
Abstract

Three Pakistani populations residing in northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers associated with Alexander's invasion of southwest Asia. Earlier studies have excluded a substantial Greek genetic input into these populations, but left open the question of a smaller contribution. We have now typed 90 binary polymorphisms and 16 multiallelic, short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci mapping to the male-specific portion of the human Y chromosome in 952 males, including 77 Greeks in order to re-investigate this question. In pairwise comparisons between the Greeks and the three Pakistani populations using genetic distance measures sensitive to recent events, the lowest distances were observed between the Greeks and the Pathans. Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there. Although based on only a few unrelated descendants, this provides strong evidence for a European origin for a small proportion of the Pathan Y chromosomes.
Keywords:

population genetics, Pakistan, Greek, Y chromosome polymorphism

Results?

The Pathans were the only population among the three that claim Greek ancestry in which clade E was present. This branch is observed in Europe, Middle East, North and East Africa with a suggested origin in East Africa.24 Sub-clade E3b is common in Europe and probably originated in Africa.25 Compelling evidence in support of the genetic relationship between the Pathan and Greek E3b1 Y chromosomes was provided by the median-joining network (Figure 4). One Pathan shared a Y-STR haplotype, that included a duplication of 10 and 13 repeat units for the DYS425 locus, with three Greek individuals and the other was separated from this cluster by a single mutation, which enabled us to estimate the TMRCA (meanplusminusSD) using the Network software as between 2000plusminus400 and 5000plusminus1200 YBP depending upon the observed26 or inferred mutation rates,27 respectively. This coincides with the period of Alexander's invasion during 327–323 BC. This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans – the highest frequency being in Macedonia.

But despite the highest frequency being in MACEDONIA, the researchers nonetheless state:

An extensive analysis of Y diversity within Greeks and three Pakistani populations – the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan – who claim descent from Greek soldiers allowed us to compare Y lineages within these populations and re-evaluate their suggested Greek origins. This study as a whole seems to exclude a large Greek contribution to any Pakistani population, confirming previous observations.7 However, it provides strong evidence in support of the Greek origins for a small proportion of Pathans, as demonstrated by the clade E network (Figure 4) and the low pairwise genetic distances between these two populations.

Which led this fellow, Steven Bird, to state the obvious:

From: "Steven Bird" <>
Subject: [DNA] "Greek" E3b1 contribution to Pathans of Pakistan actuallyMacedonian
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:05:23 -0400

OK, I've scanned the article itself and I must say that it is very
interesting and also frustrating. Interesting because it once again
confirms the Balkan origin of E3b1 (alpha), but fails to identify the
ethnicity of the ancestors correctly!! Time and again, the article refers
to the progenitors of the Pathan population in Pakistan as "Greek." It
becomes clear in context that the authors are referring to Macedonians as
Greeks. This identification is in itself controversial and may not be
correct.

Please see this 2001 medical study on the genetic makeup of Macedonians and
Greeks:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract

entitled, "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the
Greeks," by A. Arnaiz-Villena et al. (If the link has been split, copy it
and delete the carriage return after fcgi? and before cmd).

Here are the relevant conclusions of the above-cited article:

"The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the
"older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North
Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians),
Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically
close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3)
Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan
(Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups."

In the current article on the Pathans, an assumption is made, alluded to
within the title itself, that Alexander the Great was Greek. What the
authors say that is helpful to understanding ancient population movements is
that the Pathan population of Pakistan has a tradition of descent from
members of Alexander the Great's army, which appears to be borne out also by
the genetic evidence for a strong presence of E3b1 (alpha presumed) - M78
among the Pathan male population. The authors also identify M78 as
originating in the Balkans.

They then proceed to muddy the waters badly by claiming that the the
following haplotype is "Greek":

DYS19=13
389i=13
389ii=30
390=24
391=10
392=11
393=13
438=10
439=12

Anyone who has worked with E3b1 for any length of time will recognize these
immediately as the ordinary modal STR values for the E3b1 subclade (probably
E3b1a2, although this still awaits the commercial availability of V13 for
proof.)

The authors entered this "Greek"haplotype at YHRD and stated in their
article that 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897
haplotypes were found that matched it. To quote:

"The contour map [of the distribution of this haplotype] shows a major
concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other
European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a
strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y
chromosomes." Thus in this statement, they again conflate Macedonian and
Greek ancestry. (See above-linked abstract to the article, "HLA genes in
Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.").

I decided to follow suit and enter the same data at YHRD. I entered the
above haplotype and came up with a list of the populations with matches to
this profile. What struck me immediately was the almost complete ABSENCE of
this haplotype in Greece itself!!!! The only exception was found in Thrace,
Greece, where 4 out of 41 samples showed this profile. Every other profile
was found outside of Greece itself, including 14/149 in Macedonia, 4/43 in
Krusevo, Macedonia (among the Aromun population there,) 8/453 in Stuttgart,
Germany, 5/35 in Sarajevo, 3/52 in Skopje, Macedonia, 2/30 in Tirana,
Albania, etc.

The following regions in Greece had NO presence for this profile in YHRD
(sample size in parenthesis):

Athens (101)
Central Greece (14)
Crete, Greece (8)
Epirus, Greece (14)
Macedonia, Greece (28) !!!!!!
Peloponnes, Greece (18)
Thessaly, Greece (15)

198 samples above, plus 37 out of 41 samples in Thrace, for a total of 235
samples found in Greece had NO appearance of this haplotype whatsoever. The
E3b1 modal appeared in just 4 out of 235 samples within the borders of
Greece itself and those in a region that was originally part of Thracia.
How can anyone say credibly that this group is representative of a displaced
Greek population? At the very least it is Macedonian and considering the
known composition of Alexander's army, may have been Thracian instead.

The problem, obviously, is with the misidentification of Alexander as a
Greek rather than a Macedonian by these researchers. If they had stated
that the Pathan population of Pakistan had been descended from Macedonians
who accompanied Alexander, I believe that they would have hit the mark.

One other paragraph is worth noting:

"This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y
chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans -- the highest frequency
being in Macedonia."

I was speechless. The right conclusion but the wrong description.

Steven Bird, DMA

[George S.]

da on you tube is a comparison between Ancient Macedonian (poken by Pakistani group kalesh people) & modern Macedonian. Ithink that will be good in comparison.

[DedoAleko]

Modern genes yield atlas of ancient inter-ethnic sex

Encounters among populations left marks in the DNA of living people.



The Kalash people who live in the Hindu Kush Mountains of modern Pakistan carry genes that probably originated in Europe and might have been carried East by the Macedonian Army of Alexander the Great.
Expand

From invasions and migrations to slavery and trade, history is embroidered with events that led to interactions between previously separate populations — and, in many cases, hanky-panky. By mining genetic data from living people, researchers have now created a historical atlas of instances of such mixing.
The study, published today in Science1, uses statistical methods to make inferences about which populations interbred, and when, over the past 4,000 years. The findings are also presented as an interactive map. The authors sequenced DNA from 1,490 people from 95 genetically distinct populations around the world, and tested almost 500,000 single-letter variations in DNA known as single nucleotide polymorphisms, or SNPs.

Eighty of the populations showed evidence of genetic mixing. Many of the mixing events identified are consistent with historical records, validating the approach. For instance, records suggest that the Hazara people of Afghanistan and Pakistan are descended partially from Mongol warriors, and the study confirmed this, showing that Mongol DNA entered the Hazara around the time that the Mongol Empire was expanding.

Other mixing events inferred by the study were previously unknown and do not show up in historical records, but may be plausible. For instance, sequences in the DNA of the Tu people from modern China indicate that Europeans similar to modern Greeks mixed with an East Asian population around 1200 bc. The source of this European DNA might have been merchants travelling the Silk Road.

In another example, the DNA of the Kalash people, a population isolated in a remote valley in Pakistan, showed evidence of input from Europe or the Middle East (the researchers could not pin down a precise geographic location) between 990 and 210 bc — a period that overlaps with that of Alexander the Great. Local Kalash tradition holds that they are descended from Alexander the Great's army, although there is no historical record of such a mixture.

“They’ve developed a sophisticated statistical method for making inferences about human history,” says Joshua Akey, a geneticist at the University of Washington in Seattle who was not involved in the work. “Such advances are critical if we are going to read the stories of our past written in our genomes,” he adds. Akey recently led a similar study2 on European genomes, the results of which were published in January (see 'Modern human genomes reveal our inner Neanderthal'). Although he has not reviewed the latest paper1 in detail, he says that the authors' statistical method could be quite powerful and is a significant improvement on earlier approaches.

Mixed signals

Such genetic mapping is based on a genetic re-shuffling process called recombination. With the exception of the sex-determining chromosomes, every chromosome type in human cells occurs in two similar, but not identical, versions — one from each parent. But when it comes to creating the next generation, those two versions are merged into one chromosome by piecing together segments from each, and the resulting 'recombined' chromosomes are what goes into sperm and egg cells. The length of uninterrupted segments from each source decreases over successive generations, so the size of those segments serves as a timer: the longer the ancestral segments remain in modern-day genomes, the more recently the genetic mixing took place.
But using the DNA of living people has its limitations. For one, modern genomes will not always carry DNA that is a good approximation of that from the original source groups, especially for older mixing events where one of the ancestral populations might have died out without leaving any direct descendants. “Hopefully in future, we can find them by adding data from ancient DNA samples,” says Simon Myers, a statistician who specializes in bioinformatics at the University of Oxford, UK, and co-author of the latest study. It is also hard to precisely define sources of mixing when it occurred between genetically similar groups, and scenarios involving multiple waves of mixing over time or between multiple groups can be difficult to tease apart.

But Myers expects that larger sample sizes will improve resolution. “That will give us a deeper understanding of human history,” he says, “but it could also help us to understand how rare genetic variants, which can spread through mixing events, influence health and disease in different populations.”

izvor: http://www.nature.com/news/modern-ge...ic-sex-1.14718

[George S.]

you are right but i thought they think the world owes them something like they got a monopoly on everything.

[makedonche]

looks like they are being converted to islam.Despite the greeks going in with their missionary schools telling them they are greek.They sepoused that they were macedonian.

The Greeks will keep on claiming everything is Greek and try to put a copyright on everything, if the world lets them get away with it, some examples are - "Feta cheese", laughed out of the international court, "Elvis is Greek", the first man on the moon was Greek.....and so on, until someone wakes these imbeciles up!

[George S.]

looks like they are being converted to islam.Despite the greeks going in with their missionary schools telling them they are greek.They sepoused that they were macedonian.