Kalash / Hunza tribes & the Burushaski Language

[Volokin]

When I visited Konitsa in Epirus in 2004 we stayed at a hotel where the hoteliers discussed the paedo-mazema in detail during the civil war. The lady said that even some of her child family members whose parents had communist leanings moved to various states of the ex-Yugoslavia in the late 1940s. The majority of these people would solely identify as Macedonian today and have no links to Greece from what I was told? I asked about numbers and she said it was in the thousands just from Epirus, many more from Aegean Macedonia. Obviously some went to Czechoslovakia and other states.

This is not about self identifying Greeks, as I was told that many were treated extremely well financially as a result of relocating. Once again, it's what I was told so let me do some research when I get the chance

Well that is different to what you originally said.

there were thousands of ethnic Greeks (even from Epirus) and Macedonian that migrated to Republic of Macedonia as a result of the communist civil war.

[Poligiros]

Please provide some non-propagated evidence that "thousands" of ethnic Greeks settled in the roM after the civil war.

I only have heard of self-identifying Greeks settling in Vojvodina.

When I visited Konitsa in Epirus in 2004 we stayed at a hotel where the hoteliers discussed the paedo-mazema in detail during the civil war. The lady said that even some of her child family members whose parents had communist leanings moved to various states of the ex-Yugoslavia in the late 1940s. The majority of these people would solely identify as Macedonian today and have no links to Greece from what I was told? I asked about numbers and she said it was in the thousands just from Epirus, many more from Aegean Macedonia. Obviously some went to Czechoslovakia and other states.

This is not about self identifying Greeks, as I was told that many were treated extremely well financially as a result of relocating. Once again, it's what I was told so let me do some research when I get the chance

[Volokin]

My interpretation, there is a coincidence of the sample with a halotype specific to the balkans, the highest frequency being Macedonia. firstly, there were thousands of ethnic Greeks (even from Epirus) and Macedonian that migrated to Republic of Macedonia as a result of the communist civil war. Surrounding villages consisted of ethnic Greek children that moved to ex-Yugoslavia. Once again, there is a chance that some of the pathan sample may be related to the ancient Macedonians, however there is also the probability that some Macedonian village immigrated east in the middle-late ages?

Please provide some non-propagated evidence that "thousands" of ethnic Greeks settled in the roM after the civil war.

I only have heard of self-identifying Greeks settling in Vojvodina.

[Poligiros]

This is what annoys me a little when we speak about these things with Greeks, specifically.

1) They aren't our conclusions. Please show us how it is our conclusion.
2) Please show how we have taken them out of context. Something they never do or are able to because we simple quote them.
3) Please show us the contradicting studies. But they never do, they just assume they exist.

This is an attitude of denial, not an attitude to produce unbiased scientific conclusions.

OK let us analyse some of these specific quotes:

Quote1: Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there.

Q1 - From my understanding, there is limited genetic connectivity to the Pathans in comparison to the Balkans, Greece or Macedonia. There is a suggestion of origin of the (9 Y-STR) haloype that is concentrated in both countries (suggesting a limited origin), however it is probably that Greeks/Macedonians may have moved to the Pakistan area through the middle ages for any economic or social reason. I cannot determine a definite link between ancient Macedonian genetics and modern day Hunza from the quote above.

Quote 2:

he haplotype DYS19=13; 389I=13; 389II=30; 390=24; 391=10; 392=11; 393=13; 438=10; 439=12 was found in 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897 haplotypes and was highly specific for the Balkans (Figure 5). The contour map shows a major concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y chromosomes.

My interpretation, some specific Halotypes from the Balkans can be found in a low scattering in the Pathans. Once again, is it a possibility that that some Greek village experiencing hardship set out and found fertile land in the Pathans in the middle ages and brought a small colony to work the land? What specifically determines that they are from the ancient Macedonian settlements?


Quote: this coincides with the period of Alexander's invasion during 327–323 BC. This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans – the highest frequency being in Macedonia.

My interpretation, there is a coincidence of the sample with a halotype specific to the balkans, the highest frequency being Macedonia. firstly, there were thousands of ethnic Greeks (even from Epirus) and Macedonian that migrated to Republic of Macedonia as result of the communist civil war. Surrounding villages consisted of ethnic Greek children that moved to ex-Yugoslavia. Once again, there is a chance that some of the pathan sample may be related to the ancient Macedonians, however there is also the probability that some Macedonian village immigrated east in the middle-late ages?

These quotes and statements are clutching at straws to establish an improbable link to Hunza people of modern day people of Macedonia. Much like the iGenea studies that were largely debunked by experts. google them.

[Nikolaj]

This is what annoys me a little when we speak about these things with Greeks, specifically.

1) They aren't our conclusions. Please show us how it is our conclusion.
2) Please show how we have taken them out of context. Something they never do or are able to because we simple quote them.
3) Please show us the contradicting studies. But they never do, they just assume they exist.

This is an attitude of denial, not an attitude to produce unbiased scientific conclusions.

[Constellation]

Hi,

You are analyzing some basic sample studies and making conclusions to work in your favor and into a context that suites your political agenda. You have quoted a small sample narrative and there are contradicting studies that show different results of the Hunza tribe.

I'm not analyzing anything. The researchers of the study made the claims. They are the claims of the researchers and the scientists. You have a problem with their conclusions, not mine.

Furthermore, I am not "contradicting studies that show different results of the Hunza tribe".

I know of no other studies. And even if I did, I am not the one who made the claims. The researchers did.

Please provide these studies so I may analyze them.

Its erroneous to state that Macedonians from the Republic are more Macedonian that my type of Macedonian (native hellenes from the southern regions of Aegean Macedonia). In actual fact, IMHO ancient Macedonian genes would logically be found in equal proportions in all Balkan directions (e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Greece) from the core of epicenter of ancient Macedonia.

You make a lot of statements, but provide no evidence to support them.

[Poligiros]

The only reason those clowns are

While the study is biased (because it starts with "Greeks", even though the study confirms "Macedonians",) here is what is stated:


The study found that Macedonians shared a closer genetic affinity with the Pathan population than Greeks.

And again:

The highest frequency is in Macedonia:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html

So we see, based on the science, Macedonians are closer to the Pathans than the Greeks.

Hi,

You are analyzing some basic sample studies and making conclusions to work in your favor and into a context that suites your political agenda. You have quoted a small sample narrative and there are contradicting studies that show different results of the Hunza tribe.

From the reputable history that I have read, the remnants of the ancient Macedonian tribes were absorbed predominately by the Byzantine empire.

Its erroneous to state that Macedonians from the Republic are more Macedonian that my type of Macedonian (native hellenes from the southern regions of Aegean Macedonia). In actual fact, IMHO ancient Macedonian genes would logically be found in equal proportions in all Balkan directions (e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Greece) from the core of epicenter of ancient Macedonia.

[Constellation]

Theories of Greek heritage

Burusho legend maintains that they descend from the village of Baltir, which had been founded by a soldier left behind from the army of Alexander the Great—a legend common to much of northern Pakistan.[12] However, genetic evidence supports only a very small, 2% Greek genetic component among the Pashtun ethnic group of Pakistan and Afghanistan,[13] not the Burusho.[14]

The Hunza and Macedonia
In 2008 the Macedonian Institute for Strategic Researches "16.9" organized a visit by Hunza Prince Ghazanfar Ali Khan and Princess Rani Atiqa as descendants of the Alexandran army.[15] The Hunza delegation was welcomed at the Skopje Airport by the country's prime minister Nikola Gruevski, the head of the Macedonian Orthodox Church Archbishop Stephen and the then-mayor of Skopje Trifun Kostovski. Academics dismiss the idea as pseudoscience and doubts exist that party leaders actually believe the claims either.[/B][16]

LOL!!! the accuracy of the interview content is rather misleading and erroneous, based on the above?

have a nice day!

The only reason those clowns are laughing is because they are too stupid or lazy to investigate the claims of the Slavic origins of the Balkan people.

Here is a study I previously published on this forum from a European Journal of Human Genetics.

While the study is biased (because it starts with "Greeks", even though the study confirms "Macedonians",) here is what is stated:

Pakistan lies within a region that was invaded by Alexander the Great in 327–323 BC,1 although archeological evidence in northern Pakistan suggests that the Greek influence predates this invasion.2 Many ethnically and linguistically distinct populations inhabit this region, three of which (Burusho, Kalash and the Pathan) claim to be descendents of Greek soldiers who invaded the Indian subcontinent.3, 4, 5 A preliminary study using a limited number of Y-chromosomal markers found no evidence for admixture between the Greeks and Burusho or Pathan, and provided ambiguous evidence of genetic admixture between the Greek and Kalash populations.6 A subsequent analysis of autosomal loci gave no indication that the Kalash or other populations were genetically related to the Greeks,7 and in another study the Kalash population were shown as a genetic isolate8 who might therefore have developed unusual genetic characteristics by drift.9

The study found that Macedonians shared a closer genetic affinity with the Pathan population than Greeks.

Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there.

And again:

Worldwide data for the 16-element haplotype are not available, but a subset of nine of the STRs are included in by the Y-STR Haplotype Reference Database (YHRD)23 and were used to search this. The haplotype DYS19=13; 389I=13; 389II=30; 390=24; 391=10; 392=11; 393=13; 438=10; 439=12 was found in 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897 haplotypes and was highly specific for the Balkans (Figure 5). The contour map shows a major concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y chromosomes.

The highest frequency is in Macedonia:

This coincides with the period of Alexander's invasion during 327–323 BC. This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans – the highest frequency being in Macedonia.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html

So we see, based on the science, Macedonians are closer to the Pathans than the Greeks.

[Nikolaj]

I am quite disappointed that you would use the unsubstantiated opinion of one person from the Hunza tribe to try to establish a political point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burusho_people

Theories of Greek heritage

Burusho legend maintains that they descend from the village of Baltir, which had been founded by a soldier left behind from the army of Alexander the Great—a legend common to much of northern Pakistan.[12] However, genetic evidence supports only a very small, 2% Greek genetic component among the Pashtun ethnic group of Pakistan and Afghanistan,[13] not the Burusho.[14]

The Hunza and Macedonia
In 2008 the Macedonian Institute for Strategic Researches "16.9" organized a visit by Hunza Prince Ghazanfar Ali Khan and Princess Rani Atiqa as descendants of the Alexandran army.[15] The Hunza delegation was welcomed at the Skopje Airport by the country's prime minister Nikola Gruevski, the head of the Macedonian Orthodox Church Archbishop Stephen and the then-mayor of Skopje Trifun Kostovski. Academics dismiss the idea as pseudoscience and doubts exist that party leaders actually believe the claims either.[/B][16]

LOL!!! the accuracy of the interview content is rather misleading and erroneous, based on the above?

have a nice day!

This would be dismissed instantly because of the status quo regarding the Slavic migration theory. Have you read about the Slavic migration theory on this forum? Not to mention they tried to find a Greek genetic lineage of these people in Greece but could not, however they did notice a connection within Macedonia. I will get you this article tonight.

If these people want to be acknowledged to be the descendants of Alexanders army, going with either party both Greek or Macedonian would allow this to happen within modern day politics.

[Poligiros]

http://www.shilomagazine.com.au/we-a...-and-not-greek

Pakistan's Hunza: We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek.
11 January, 19:09
Pakistan's Hunza: We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek.
We are proud to be Macedonians and we are not Greek.

At the end I would Say long live Hunza long live Macedonia and long live our brotherhood

I am quite disappointed that you would use the unsubstantiated opinion of one person from the Hunza tribe to try to establish a political point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burusho_people

Theories of Greek heritage

Burusho legend maintains that they descend from the village of Baltir, which had been founded by a soldier left behind from the army of Alexander the Great—a legend common to much of northern Pakistan.[12] However, genetic evidence supports only a very small, 2% Greek genetic component among the Pashtun ethnic group of Pakistan and Afghanistan,[13] not the Burusho.[14]

The Hunza and Macedonia
In 2008 the Macedonian Institute for Strategic Researches "16.9" organized a visit by Hunza Prince Ghazanfar Ali Khan and Princess Rani Atiqa as descendants of the Alexandran army.[15] The Hunza delegation was welcomed at the Skopje Airport by the country's prime minister Nikola Gruevski, the head of the Macedonian Orthodox Church Archbishop Stephen and the then-mayor of Skopje Trifun Kostovski. Academics dismiss the idea as pseudoscience and doubts exist that party leaders actually believe the claims either.[/B][16]

LOL!!! the accuracy of the interview content is rather misleading and erroneous, based on the above?

have a nice day!

[DedoAleko]

Ilija Casule from the Department of Linguistics, Macquarie University, Sydney published a book on that matter.
I couldn't find online copies of his books:"Basic Burushaski Etymologies: The Indo-European and Paleo-Balkanic Affinities of Burushaski" and "Burushaski as an Indo-European "Kentum" Language: Reflexes of the Indo-European Gutturals in Burushaski", but I found a book on the same subject,where he contributed in.
You can find the book on books.google and it is called:
Trans-Himalayan Linguistics: Historical and Descriptive Linguistics of the ...
edited by Thomas Owen-Smith, Nathan Hill


This is the documentary Marina visits the Kaleshi & Hunzi - to the end of the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf3XFFEfX6c

[Nikolaj]

Much appreciated. Also,

I googled a list of common words they use (I assume this is the language they referred to) and here it is:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Burushaski_Swadesh_list

Hand = Raka (Macedonian) = Ren (Burushaski)

I do not see this to be as similar as the video claimed. Even though it was something I would have disagreed with instantly knowing that languages develop and people are influenced, borrow words etc. However, I did notice there are similar words that we have in Macedonian but are used for different things. This is something I noticed when analysing the difference between Russian and Macedonian in the past.

What I would take into consideration is that there are professional and unprofessional ways of saying words e.g. in Macedonian 'fala' and 'blagodaram' for saying thank you. This is something they may have noticed while physically being there which is different to a formal systematic script of words.

[Volokin]

This is a snippet from the full doco:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uPrShhOY-c

(not letting me embed for some reason)

And here you can find the full doco in 4 parts:

https://www.youtube.com/user/Karev3/videos

I found it fascinating that the Hunza people are still proud to say they are of Macedonian origin some two thousand years later. This is a great story and I'd like to learn more about these people.

The main thing here is that they feel Macedonian and know the history behind their existence, and that's important because it strengthens the argument that they are the true descendants of Alexander's army.

[Dejan]

I have this doco on DVD. Will look for it and see if I can share. I'm sure it was on youtube not long ago. Title was "To the end of the earth" or something along those lines

[Nikolaj]

I remember watching a doco on them and some Macedonian journalist went there and there was actually a number of words which were very very similar to modern Macedonian

From memory they called Raka (hand) Raka aswell but I've forgotten the rest

Do you have a link to that video MN? I'm sure there is a great possible connection, especially if we go into agricultural terminology.

Does anyone have a link to that article where they tried to find some genetic connection with the Greeks but didn't find one, however there was some genetic connection in Macedonia?